Building an illusionist for upcoming abomination vaults. I know bard is easier but I don't want to play one.
My first question is what do you think is acceptable stat spread? Typically I built all my no armor characters the same. 18 in my main stat and 16 Dex .
But I want to be able to lie and convince others of my lies. My current stat spread is 18int,14dex,14cha,12wis
Leaving me with 15 ac and 16hp
16 ac is bad enough to me. 15ac and+3 fort sounds almost terrifying.
But not being able to lie even semi convincingly until level 5 kinda makes my concept fall flat.
What's your experience been with 12-14 Dex wizards that also have only 10-12 con? Is this just suicidal? I have not taken mage armor yet either, not a big fan of having to expend a spell slot right away every day. Especially at level 1.
I do have a steel shield, shield Cantrip, and reflection ancestry reaction along with shattering gem. Maybe combined with teamwork it's fine but I definitely feel like I'm going to get instantly dropped a lot.
As for spell usage, I'm just really curious to how people have used illusion spells to great effect in actual play
And in general, no spoilers for abomination vaults please and thanks
Unfortunately, I think a lot of this is dependent on the GM and their playing style.
My experience with a Witch - though one that did go the high DEX and Rogue archetype for light armor - is that by lurking in the vicinity of the Giant instinct Barbarian and other high apparent threat allies, I was almost never targeted by enemy attacks. In the first book of Age of Ashes I took more self-inflicted damage than I took from enemies.
Though at least part of that was also through good use of the Shield cantrip and proper positioning among allies and enemies.
But like I said, your results may vary because of differences in GM style.
Unfortunately, I think a lot of this is dependent on the GM and their playing style.
My experience with a Witch - though one that did go the high DEX and Rogue archetype for light armor - is that by lurking in the vicinity of the Giant instinct Barbarian and other high apparent threat allies, I was almost never targeted by enemy attacks. In the first book of Age of Ashes I took more self-inflicted damage than I took from enemies.
Though at least part of that was also through good use of the Shield cantrip and proper positioning among allies and enemies.
But like I said, your results may vary because of differences in GM style.
Pretty fair assessment. The DM in question in my experience is pretty good at role playing the bad guys/monsters so not all of them are perfectly honed tacticians. So I have that going for me.
I just know abomination vaults is fairly combat heavy. About all I know aside from the player primer pdf.
If you're willing to be a tortoise, you leave str and dex at 10 and use human to general feat your way into medium armor and sentinel to get plate AC and super bulwark if necessary. From there, you boost all four other stats.
Pick up a wand of ant haul and/or hefty hauler skill feat if bulk becomes an issue. Grab all the speed bonuses you are going to grab anyway or adopted ancestry dwarf for unburdened iron if it's really an issue.
You know the rest. Illusion specialist, spell blend thesis, Convincing illusion at 6, Illusion staff, multitalented at 9 for something useful, etc, etc.
It's a bit painful at 1st, but you may want to look at dedicating one of your two slots to Mage Armor.
Because you're in Abomination Vaults, you can take the Armor Proficiency General Feat and it will help you out the whole AP. You'd have to suffer the Skill penalties but Studded Leather or a Chain Shirt would reduce your AC gap to -1 below max, and you would have max AC starting at 5th.
If you're willing to be a tortoise, you leave str and dex at 10 and use human to general feat your way into medium armor and sentinel to get plate AC and super bulwark if necessary. From there, you boost all four other stats.
Pick up a wand of ant haul and/or hefty hauler skill feat if bulk becomes an issue. Grab all the speed bonuses you are going to grab anyway or adopted ancestry dwarf for unburdened iron if it's really an issue.
You know the rest. Illusion specialist, spell blend thesis, Convincing illusion at 6, Illusion staff, multitalented at 9 for something useful, etc, etc.
Going orc with reflection ancestry. And spell substitution. But a good idea I've looked at for other builds
It's a bit painful at 1st, but you may want to look at dedicating one of your two slots to Mage Armor.
Because you're in Abomination Vaults, you can take the Armor Proficiency General Feat and it will help you out the whole AP. You'd have to suffer the Skill penalties but Studded Leather or a Chain Shirt would reduce your AC gap to -1 below max, and you would have max AC starting at 5th.
Yeah I've thought about mage armor. It's going to depend of the DM in question runs automatic bonus progression or not.
Not a fan of essentially a spell slot tax but might be worth it.
Going ancestral paragon for warped reflection at 3 though.
You could go Titan Nagaji for built in armor: you could then drop dex to 12 and have +4 for your 'armor' and +1 for your dex [max dex for it]: now you'd have a -5' move and a -2 to dex/srt based checks until you get a 16 str but the 'armor' has comfort so you can sleep in it.
You could go Titan Nagaji for built in armor: you could then drop dex to 12 and have +4 for your 'armor' and +1 for your dex [max dex for it]: now you'd have a -5' move and a -2 to dex/srt based checks until you get a 1 str but the 'armor' has comfort so you can sleep in it.
Hard committed to orc
That's kinda why I was asking about stat spreads and people's experiences with low AC wizards.
You could go Titan Nagaji for built in armor: you could then drop dex to 12 and have +4 for your 'armor' and +1 for your dex [max dex for it]: now you'd have a -5' move and a -2 to dex/srt based checks until you get a 16 str but the 'armor' has comfort so you can sleep in it.Hard committed to orc
That's kinda why I was asking about stat spreads and people's experiences with low AC wizards.
I'm not sure what orc has to do with your stat spread: Orc only has 2 boosts and now ANY race has the option to pick to free boosts instead of their normal stat boosts and flaws.
As to low AC wizards, it can be REALLY rough. Even with good melee in a group and good tactics, ranged and area attacks can hit you and with an AC in the low range just means higher crit chances. It's kind of like the questions about how vulnerable a familiar is: some games it's best to keep your familiar in a sack to prevent attacks on it. In others it might just be ignored.
You could go Titan Nagaji for built in armor: you could then drop dex to 12 and have +4 for your 'armor' and +1 for your dex [max dex for it]: now you'd have a -5' move and a -2 to dex/srt based checks until you get a 16 str but the 'armor' has comfort so you can sleep in it.Hard committed to orc
That's kinda why I was asking about stat spreads and people's experiences with low AC wizards.
I'm not sure what orc has to do with your stat spread: Orc only has 2 boosts and now ANY race has the option to pick to free boosts instead of their normal stat boosts and flaws.
As to low AC wizards, it can be REALLY rough. Even with good melee in a group and good tactics, ranged and area attacks can hit you and with an AC in the low range just means higher crit chances. It's kind of like the questions about how vulnerable a familiar is: some games it's best to keep your familiar in a sack to prevent attacks on it. In others it might just be ignored.
Mainly because, I'm not going to go Titan nagaji. I'm hard committed to orc ancestry with reflection heritage.
Mainly because, I'm not going to go Titan nagaji. I'm hard committed to orc ancestry with reflection heritage.
Sure I 100% got that: what I didn't get was "That's kinda why I was asking about stat spreads and people's experiences with low AC wizards" since I see nothing about Orc that matters for stat spreads or low AC wizards. It sounded like you had to have the stat spread and low AC because you where an orc. So my last post wasn't to convince you to take a Titan nagaji but trying to figure the link between being an Orc and the stat spread and low AC.
I'm also not sure how Titan Nagaji would help anything anyway. Being Titan Nagaji doesn't give the character any proficiency in medium armor. So if you want to get medium armor proficiency, you can do that as an Orc just as easily as a Nagaji.
Unfortunately you're kind of stuck then. You can't boost both int and cha without getting absolutely punished for dumping a save stat. Pick whichever you're most willing to gamble with and run with it.
For AC, you can keep dex at 10 and archetype Alchemist and take drakeheart mutagens to get AC since failing reflex saves is usually the least immediately fatal as far as debilitating effects go.
I'm also not sure how Titan Nagaji would help anything anyway. Being Titan Nagaji doesn't give the character any proficiency in medium armor. So if you want to get medium armor proficiency, you can do that as an Orc just as easily as a Nagaji.
You're right. Brain not good working.
Mainly because, I'm not going to go Titan nagaji. I'm hard committed to orc ancestry with reflection heritage.Sure I 100% got that: what I didn't get was "That's kinda why I was asking about stat spreads and people's experiences with low AC wizards" since I see nothing about Orc that matters for stat spreads or low AC wizards. It sounded like you had to have the stat spread and low AC because you where an orc. So my last post wasn't to convince you to take a Titan nagaji but trying to figure the link between being an Orc and the stat spread and low AC.
Sorry, thought I explained but maybe I didn't.
I'm dedicating 14 charisma to the build got deception checks combined with illusion spells.
So my Dex will be 12-14.
So I just wanted to know people's experience with a low AC wizard
Sorry, thought I explained but maybe I didn't.
I'm dedicating 14 charisma to the build got deception checks combined with illusion spells.
Yes, you explained that: What I still do not get is how "Hard committed to orc" is linked to "That's kinda why I was asking about stat spreads and people's experiences with low AC wizards." I'm trying to figure out what about orcs made you want to ask about low AC wizards, because it seems to be what you're saying with that post when you say "That's kinda why I was asking". If it's just the type of character you want to try that's cool but if it's something to do with orc, I'm at a loss what it could be.
Yes, you explained that: What I still do not get is how "Hard committed to orc" is linked to "That's kinda why I was asking about stat spreads and people's experiences with low AC wizards." I'm trying to figure out what about orcs made you want to ask about low AC wizards, because it seems to be what you're saying with that post when you say "That's kinda why I was asking". If it's just the type of character you want to try that's cool but if it's something to do with orc, I'm at a loss what it could be.Sorry, thought I explained but maybe I didn't.
I'm dedicating 14 charisma to the build got deception checks combined with illusion spells.
I'm not understanding the disconnect.
I'm playing an orc wizard, reflection heritage, shadow caster. Non negotiable
I want to invest into charisma for deception to pair with my illusion magic but I don't want to go lower than 18 in my intelligence.
This means I pretty much need to take some points from dexterity. Lowering my ac to either 15 or 14.
I asked about people's experience playing a low AC wizard as I had minor worry about it. Wanted to see if my worries were unfounded or not.
About it
I'm not understanding the disconnect.
This is exactly what I'm thinking: my question seemed pretty clear to me.
I'm playing an orc wizard, reflection heritage, shadow caster. Non negotiable
Sure, I already said I understand. What I DON'T understand is how Orc has anything to do with your low AC or how you placed your stats: literally any race could give the same stats and AC so it seems a choice made for something other than stats or AC.
I want to invest into charisma for deception to pair with my illusion magic but I don't want to go lower than 18 in my intelligence.
Yep, but nothing here is contingent on orc.
This means I pretty much need to take some points from dexterity. Lowering my ac to either 15 or 14.
Yep, but nothing here is contingent on orc.
I asked about people's experience playing a low AC wizard as I had minor worry about it. Wanted to see if my worries were unfounded or not.
Yep, but nothing here is contingent on orc. It's why I didn't understand the "That's kinda why I was asking" as a "Hard committed to orc" has no impact whatsoever on your AC and stats vs other races. All orc impacts here is to let people know not to suggest a different race. *shrug* If this doesn't clear it up for you, I'll just drop it as we'll just go in circles not getting each others points.
It doesn't clear it up at all. You suggested a different ancestry and I expressed that I'm playing an orc lol.
Casters are not supposed to tank anything. You'll stay behind and as such for most fights you'll just not take damage. So the difference between a tough caster and a paper one will not matter often enough to justify a crazy investment. Casters don't fall because they lack defenses, they fall because they end up at the wrong place, and their defenses may obviously save them but chances are high that won't be enough anyway.
As a side note, a 14 Con 10 Dex Wizard has a higher survival rate than a 14 Dex 10 Con Wizard. Against AC-based attacks you are in the same boat (the high Dex Wizard takes less damage but the 14 Con Wizard can soak more damage before going down). Against anything else the 14 Con Wizard will survive more easily, even against Reflex-based attacks, thanks to its biggest hit point pool.
In your position, I'd switch the 2 stats unless Stealth, Acrobatics and Thievery are important for you.
For an orc wizard I don't see many options than have 16 dex to have bit higher AC. The only alternative I can think is being a human with Versatile Heritage or half-orc with General Training ancestry feat to take armor proficiency (and yet the best option is still have 16 in dex to have the full +5 in your AC).
Yet the usage of Shield as said in OP will help your defenses a lot and is a good use for 3rd action.
I also partially agree with SuperBidi here. If you keep well positioned during encounters this will be your best defense yet you still weak agains long-ranged strikes specially you are easy to crit. During lvl 1 ranged opponents with bows or throw weapons can take you down in a single hit that's why I still think that have a good AC is important to prevent crits.
Maybe can be good to you consider a human based ancestry or be psicologically prepared that you are way fragile during earliest levels.
During lvl 1 ranged opponents with bows or throw weapons can take you down in a single hit that's why I still think that have a good AC is important to prevent crits.
You can end up with more chances to go down in one hit by building Dex over Con. For example, a Bloody Blade Mercenary has 4.5% chance to put you down in one hit with their first attack if you build for Constitution and 5.34% chance if you build for Dex.
Building for Con is in general better for survivability on a Wizard at low level (not necessarily at level 1 where the Ancestry hit points are very important, but quickly afterward).
Sorry but +8 vs no dex AC 13 (or 15 with shield risen) means that if the opponent rolls 5 (7 with shield risen) or more it will hit and 15 (or 17 with shield risen) or more it will crit. It's pretty high chance to hit and to crit to do 3-22 dmg (avg 12,5). We also need to consider that's probably will have another Strike in this turn with PAM -5 but still with a good chance to hit (this time probably only doing normal dmg 1-6, avg 3,5) having +2/+3 to HP don't look to be so useful in this situation than having AC 16 (or 18 with shield risen) and diminish the critical chance by half or to only nat with shield risen and second hit chance to only if the opponent rolling 13 or (15 with shield risen) or more with PAM -5).
Sorry but I still don't think that the survivability is better with more con in such earliest level.
And I need to fix myself this risk to take down isn't only high in single hit but even higher in a single turn.
I think I'll settle for
Str 10
Dex 14
Con 12
Wis 10
Int 18
Cha 14
I'll bite the bullet on mage armor (gets me to 16ac,16hp)
I'll have shield Cantrip, a steel shield for when the Cantrip is on CD from it's reaction. And a once a day reaction from my reflection heritage that helps survival.
At level 5 I'll have the orc reaction to prevent myself going unconscious.
Now, question about application is illusion spells? Any creative experiences?
Sorry but +8 vs no dex AC 13 (or 15 with shield risen) means that if the opponent rolls 5 (7 with shield risen) or more it will hit and 15 (or 17 with shield risen) or more it will crit. It's pretty high chance to hit and to crit to do 3-22 dmg (avg 12,5). We also need to consider that's probably will have another Strike in this turn with PAM -5 but still with a good chance to hit (this time probably only doing normal dmg 1-6, avg 3,5) having +2/+3 to HP don't look to be so useful in this situation than having AC 16 (or 18 with shield risen) and diminish the critical chance by half or to only nat with shield risen and second hit chance to only if the opponent rolling 13 or (15 with shield risen) or more with PAM -5).
Sorry but I still don't think that the survivability is better with more con in such earliest level.
And I need to fix myself this risk to take down isn't only high in single hit but even higher in a single turn.
To put it simply:
Wizard has 6hp per level. +2 (14 Con) means 33% extra HP.+2 AC is 20% damage reduction against AC-based attacks.
So, Ancestry hit points put aside, you are tougher against AC-based attacks with 14 Con and 10 Dex than with 14 Dex and 10 Con.
Ancestry hit points are very important at level 1 but their importance fades very quickly.
And extra hit points are useful against all forms of damage, not only AC-based one.
So you are tougher with higher Con than higher Dex. At high level, it is reduced because of the increases every 5 levels, but at low level you definitely prioritize Con over Dex if your goal is survival only.
Sorry but +8 vs no dex AC 13 (or 15 with shield risen) means that if the opponent rolls 5 (7 with shield risen) or more it will hit and 15 (or 17 with shield risen) or more it will crit. It's pretty high chance to hit and to crit to do 3-22 dmg (avg 12,5). We also need to consider that's probably will have another Strike in this turn with PAM -5 but still with a good chance to hit (this time probably only doing normal dmg 1-6, avg 3,5) having +2/+3 to HP don't look to be so useful in this situation than having AC 16 (or 18 with shield risen) and diminish the critical chance by half or to only nat with shield risen and second hit chance to only if the opponent rolling 13 or (15 with shield risen) or more with PAM -5).
Sorry but I still don't think that the survivability is better with more con in such earliest level.
And I need to fix myself this risk to take down isn't only high in single hit but even higher in a single turn.
To put it simply:
Wizard has 6hp per level. +2 (14 Con) means 33% extra HP.
+2 AC is 20% damage reduction against AC-based attacks.
So, Ancestry hit points put aside, you are tougher against AC-based attacks with 14 Con and 10 Dex than with 14 Dex and 10 Con.
Ancestry hit points are very important at level 1 but their importance fades very quickly.
And extra hit points are useful against all forms of damage, not only AC-based one.So you are tougher with higher Con than higher Dex. At high level, it is reduced because of the increases every 5 levels, but at low level you definitely prioritize Con over Dex if your goal is survival only.
Either way I probably want 14 Dex as stealth still be of importance for me .
Orc Ferocity is a good backup tool for a fragile caster. But also an illusionist has a lot of defensive options. Illusions can draw attention, waste actions, add miss chance, and so on. And with conceal spell you can make yourself look like a non-threat. If the enemy can't tell you're casting, they are less likely to target the nerd cowering in the corner when there are more dangerous targets that need stopping.