You share regular hit points but does that extend to temporary hit points?
Let’s say only your eidolon has temporary hit points, but you, the summoner, gets hit. Do you decrease your hit points directly or treat your eidolon’s temp hp as your own?
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Sharing HP would mean anything that affects that HP is likewise shared.
Heh. That is actually question #2 that I have in my list of questions for the GM of the game I am building a Summoner character for. Question #1 is about persistent damage on the Eidolon when it unmanifests. Currently I am up to 11 questions.
I don't think the rules actually say one way or the other regarding temporary HP.
Having temp HP apply to the shared pool would probably be the easiest to manage and track, but it conflicts with some ways of describing temporary HP - such as a healing energy aura that automatically heals damage as it is taken. But that is just narrative description and shouldn't change the game mechanics.
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The ways of describing Temporary HP is irrelevant to the obvious mechanics. If a Summoner casts Vampiric Touch on an enemy, and gains Temporary HP from it, then if the Eidolon takes damage, it draws from the same HP pool the Summoner has. This means when the Summoner gains Temporary HP, so does the Eidolon. Just as well, when the Eidolon loses Temporary HP, so does the Summoner. They are interlinked with one another in that respect, so the means of acquiring Temporary HP doesn't matter when, if one is affected, both are affected.
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It does seem annoying if it isn’t shared. Keeping track of temp hp for both and then calculating damage separately seems like a nightmare and deviates from the linked hp design.
Temporary hit points are not shared. Neither is the persistent damage status. For all their oddities, eidolons and their summoners are still treated as two separate creatures, except where specifically noted.
That is, if the summoner cast false life to gain 10 temporary hit points, and the eidolon got attacked for 8 damage, they would have 8 less hit points. If the summoner then took an arrow to the knee for 4 damage, he would have 6 temporary hit points left and neither one would lose any hit points.
In the case of persistent damage, both would take the damage if one had the persistent damage status effect, but if the eidolon unmanifests, the status condition doesn't suddenly transfer to the summoner. Whether or not the damage continues, is paused, or is the condition ended, is another matter.
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Temporary hit points are not shared. Neither is the persistent damage status. For all their oddities, eidolons and their summoners are still treated as two separate creatures, except where specifically noted.
That is, if the summoner cast false life to gain 10 temporary hit points, and the eidolon got attacked for 8 damage, they would have 8 less hit points. If the summoner then took an arrow to the knee for 4 damage, he would have 6 temporary hit points left and neither one would lose any hit points.
In the case of persistent damage, both would take the damage if one had the persistent damage status effect, but if the eidolon unmanifests, the status condition doesn't suddenly transfer to the summoner. Whether or not the damage continues, is paused, or is the condition ended, is another matter.
How are they not shared? It makes no sense for HP to be shared, but not a value which affects HP, to not likewise be shared, so the idea that they aren't shared is debunked when the games does everything it can to tell you that yes, your Eidolon has the same HP value as you do, regardless of whatever specifically-targeting effects can do.
A condition which reduces the HP value of the Eidolon likewise reduces the HP value of the Summoner. They're interlinked. Yes, the condition is linked to the Eidolon, but if both the Summoner and the Eidolon are given the same condition (say, Bleed 1D6), then it "double-dips." The same is done for spells like Heal, and abilities like Battle Medicine; a Summoner and Eidolon are both separate targets and both "double-dip" from those effects if they are targeted simultaneously. There's tradeoffs for this kind of power, and it's not necessarily a bad thing.
And no, I'm not saying the condition "transfers," but things which affected the Summoner's HP remain in place once they're done, not unlike damage dealt with a Fireball. With Persistent Damage, the HP lost from the Eidolon don't just suddenly go back to the Summoner's HP when it unmanifests, that's ridiculous amounts of cheesing. Same with the Drained condition, though in that case, the Summoner's maximum HP would revert back to normal, since the effect reducing its maximum is no longer present, and the -1 penalty to Fortitude Saves wouldn't apply to the Summoner if the Summoner is targeted with a Fortitude Save effect.
It's not a very difficult concept to grasp. Your Eidolon's life force is shared with yours. If it's boosted by Temporary HP, so is the other. This is corresponding both with the mechanics as well as the flavor of the class. Doing it the other way requires way too much tracking, and since this edition is (almost) all about cutting down on tracking things, the KISS rule comes to mind here.
Well, from a strictly mechanical point of view:
The Eidolon and the Summoner share the same pool of hit points: the Summoner's. So if the Summoner has temporary hit points, they will go away through any damage the Summoner or the Eidolon takes. If it's the Eidolon, then these temp hps are useless.
But I hardly see how the Eidolon could get temp hps, so it's fine.
But I hardly see how the Eidolon could get temp hps, so it's fine.
A Cleric in the party with Healer's Gel.
For some Eidolon traditions Magical Master will let them cast Vampiric Touch.
But I hardly see how the Eidolon could get temp hps, so it's fine.A Cleric in the party with Healer's Gel.
For some Eidolon traditions Magical Master will let them cast Vampiric Touch.
I realize my sentence was not clear: I absolutely know how to grab temp hps. Just that these means are not common for an Eidolon and the players can easily work around them.
To take your 2 examples: the Cleric can Heal the Summoner and get the same effect, and Magical Master is quite uncommon on Eidolons, and very often it is taken with Fey Eidolons, with the Primal spelllist lacking temp hp spells.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It does seem like the easiest way to think about it is to think of the Eidolon as having no hit points of its own. It is just a vital connection to the summoner’s own life force. Anything happening to that manifestation is happening to the summoner, until the manifestation is un-manifested. Mechanically, there really is no “we” with the summoner class. There is only the summoner and power the summoner taps into.
It does seem like the easiest way to think about it is to think of the Eidolon as having no hit points of its own. It is just a vital connection to the summoner’s own life force. Anything happening to that manifestation is happening to the summoner, until the manifestation is un-manifested. Mechanically, there really is no “we” with the summoner class. There is only the summoner and power the summoner taps into.
It's actually important to follow this rule, as otherwise you'd have weird issues with spells like Disintegrate that specifies that you die when you reach 0 hp. Who dies? The Eidolon? But then how to get it back? The Summoner? But how come the Summoner is turned to dust despite not being the target of the spell?
Even if it's weird for some spells (Power Words), considering that the Eidolon has no hp pool but that the damage it takes is just done on the Summoner instead avoids a few problems and is quite straightforward to use.
How are they not shared? It makes no sense for HP to be shared, but not a value which affects HP, to not likewise be shared, so the idea that they aren't shared is debunked when the games does everything it can to tell you that yes, your Eidolon has the same HP value as you do, regardless of whatever specifically-targeting effects can do.
Hit Points are not Temporary Hit Points. One does not affect the other. Abilities affecting one do not affect the other, except where specically noted in the rules.
Who dies? The Eidolon? But then how to get it back? The Summoner? But how come the Summoner is turned to dust despite not being the target of the spell?So, who dies? Because in any case I just don't see any way for the Summoner to die from this if the Eidolon was the target.
For (probably) all death effects too, btw.
Maybe it's good at least in this case to have some actual protection for a summoner.
In fact, you have 2 readings:
- Either you consider that, as it is a "shared hp pool", the Summoner hp pool is also the Eidolon hp pool. So in that case the Eidolon would die, which in my opinion creates more issues.- Or you consider that the Eidolon doesn't have an hp pool as the mechanical description of "shared hp pool" just indicates that all damage and healing done on the Eidolon is applied to the Summoner hp pool. In that case no one dies when the Eidolon takes a Death effect and the Summoner goes to 0 hp. I think it's more in line with the class in general as the Summoner avoids a lot of Conditions when they affect their Eidolon (Controlled, Confused, Doomed and even things like Frightened can be side stepped by just not playing the Eidolon during the duration).
I would probably run them as separate. If the eidolon has temporary hit points and gets hit, then I would remove the temporary hit points. If the summoner gets hit and has no temporary hit points, I remove them from the base pool first.
Not sure how it is supposed to work as that seems unclear. I think it is fairly easy to track temporary hit points attached to the summoner or eidolon. I would run it giving temporary hit points to whoever had the effect that gave them temp hit points.
But I hardly see how the Eidolon could get temp hps, so it's fine.
The Undead eidolon's second ability allows it access to temp hp pretty consistently. It was actually what prompted my question since the ability specifically says the eidolon is the one that gains temp hp. I don't think it ever came up the with the last Summoner I played so I found it interesting.
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How are they not shared? It makes no sense for HP to be shared, but not a value which affects HP, to not likewise be shared, so the idea that they aren't shared is debunked when the games does everything it can to tell you that yes, your Eidolon has the same HP value as you do, regardless of whatever specifically-targeting effects can do.Hit Points are not Temporary Hit Points. One does not affect the other. Abilities affecting one do not affect the other, except where specically noted in the rules.
Question though, if the summoner receives temporary hit points and the eidolon does not, doesn’t that leave an issue if the summoner still has their temporary HP but otherwise is at 0 HP because the eidolon got dropped?
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RAW and RAI are pretty clear, the Summoner/Eidolon combo has only one set of HP and THP are reduced whenever you would take damage. There is no way to only damage one half of the summoner/eidolon combo, because there is only one pool of HP.
If you really want to nerf Summoners at your own home games, that's fine, I guess. Not sure why you would, but whatever.
Question though, if the summoner receives temporary hit points and the eidolon does not, doesn’t that leave an issue if the summoner still has their temporary HP but otherwise is at 0 HP because the eidolon got dropped?How are they not shared? It makes no sense for HP to be shared, but not a value which affects HP, to not likewise be shared, so the idea that they aren't shared is debunked when the games does everything it can to tell you that yes, your Eidolon has the same HP value as you do, regardless of whatever specifically-targeting effects can do.Hit Points are not Temporary Hit Points. One does not affect the other. Abilities affecting one do not affect the other, except where specically noted in the rules.
If you have 0 hp and a number of temporary hp, then you are unconscious and dying.
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If you have 0 hp and a number of temporary hp, then you are unconscious and dying.
I cannot find that rule. I remember that as a 5e rule, but nothing in the PF2 rules about hit points and dying or the temporary hit points section say anything about that. All it says is that temporary hit points are burned first before standard hit points.
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I think its a result of temp HP not healing you from 0 HP. So the temp HP is effectively useless. But not sure if that is intended of just misreading the rules.
I’m not adverse to that being true, but I also cannot find that in the rules. The only specifics I can find regarding THP (temporary hit points) is that they usually have a duration, do not stack with other sources of THP, and are lost first before standard HP. Maybe there is a snippet somewhere hidden in another rule that supports that idea, but I know naught of it.
But I hardly see how the Eidolon could get temp hps, so it's fine.The Undead eidolon's second ability allows it access to temp hp pretty consistently. It was actually what prompted my question since the ability specifically says the eidolon is the one that gains temp hp. I don't think it ever came up the with the last Summoner I played so I found it interesting.
Damn, I missed this one.
Then it's a conundrum. Allowing the Eidolon to "use" temp hp means that it has a hit point pool and that it can now die from Death effects per strict RAW and you end up with a class that is unusable then. Well, at least, you're not dead... which is not a permanent status in Pathfinder, here's the issue.In my opinion, temp hps on Eidolons have to be houseruled into their own thing.
I don't think it will come up much. The temp hit points end after 1 minute. The eidolon disappears if the summoner goes unconscious. Death effects hitting the eidolon still hammer it. I'm not sure where some of these rulings saying otherwise are coming from. Must be something I'm not reading.
You could make it easy and have the single hit point pool gain temporary hit points. I don't think it gets much different if you allow the temp hit points separately. It's one of those situations that won't come up too much. The temp hit points from undead eidolon disappear fast enough it won't keep anyone up too long whether they're getting hit or not.
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But I hardly see how the Eidolon could get temp hps, so it's fine.The Undead eidolon's second ability allows it access to temp hp pretty consistently. It was actually what prompted my question since the ability specifically says the eidolon is the one that gains temp hp. I don't think it ever came up the with the last Summoner I played so I found it interesting.Damn, I missed this one.
Then it's a conundrum. Allowing the Eidolon to "use" temp hp means that it has a hit point pool and that it can now die from Death effects per strict RAW and you end up with a class that is unusable then. Well, at least, you're not dead... which is not a permanent status in Pathfinder, here's the issue.In my opinion, temp hps on Eidolons have to be houseruled into their own thing.
I don't think undead changes anything: Drain Life says "Your eidolon attacks a living creature and drains some of the creature's life force to feed your shared link." I take that to mean it's affecting your shared hp pool.
I don't think undead changes anything: Drain Life says "Your eidolon attacks a living creature and drains some of the creature's life force to feed your shared link." I take that to mean it's affecting your shared hp pool.But I hardly see how the Eidolon could get temp hps, so it's fine.The Undead eidolon's second ability allows it access to temp hp pretty consistently. It was actually what prompted my question since the ability specifically says the eidolon is the one that gains temp hp. I don't think it ever came up the with the last Summoner I played so I found it interesting.Damn, I missed this one.
Then it's a conundrum. Allowing the Eidolon to "use" temp hp means that it has a hit point pool and that it can now die from Death effects per strict RAW and you end up with a class that is unusable then. Well, at least, you're not dead... which is not a permanent status in Pathfinder, here's the issue.In my opinion, temp hps on Eidolons have to be houseruled into their own thing.
"Your eidolon gains temporary Hit Points equal to the enemy's level, which last for 1 minute."
It also says this. Why specify the eidolon?
I don't think it will have much of an effect on gameplay most of the time. As a GM you should probably plan how you will run it before any arguments start if someone is playing an Undead Eidolon.
I think its a result of temp HP not healing you from 0 HP. So the temp HP is effectively useless. But not sure if that is intended of just misreading the rules.I’m not adverse to that being true, but I also cannot find that in the rules. The only specifics I can find regarding THP (temporary hit points) is that they usually have a duration, do not stack with other sources of THP, and are lost first before standard HP. Maybe there is a snippet somewhere hidden in another rule that supports that idea, but I know naught of it.
As a player character, when you are reduced to 0 Hit Points, you’re knocked out with the following effects:
So if you somehow manage to have Temporary HP but have 0 actual HP, then you would still be KO and Dying.
It is not exactly a common or standard state to be in, but some of the rulings and scenarios in this thread could cause it.
I think its a result of temp HP not healing you from 0 HP. So the temp HP is effectively useless. But not sure if that is intended of just misreading the rules.I’m not adverse to that being true, but I also cannot find that in the rules. The only specifics I can find regarding THP (temporary hit points) is that they usually have a duration, do not stack with other sources of THP, and are lost first before standard HP. Maybe there is a snippet somewhere hidden in another rule that supports that idea, but I know naught of it.As a player character, when you are reduced to 0 Hit Points, you’re knocked out with the following effects:So if you somehow manage to have Temporary HP but have 0 actual HP, then you would still be KO and Dying.
It is not exactly a common or standard state to be in, but some of the rulings and scenarios in this thread could cause it.
Yep. That's what I would have posted too if you hadn't beat me to the punch.
Nothing in the temporary hit point rules changes how the hit point rules works.
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"Your eidolon gains temporary Hit Points equal to the enemy's level, which last for 1 minute."
It also says this. Why specify the eidolon?
I don't think it will have much of an effect on gameplay most of the time. As a GM you should probably plan how you will run it before any arguments start if someone is playing an Undead Eidolon.
Because it's written in the eidolon section? I think if it was a summoner ability it's be written as 'you gain'. How do you write it as to NOT reference either the summoner or the eidolon and don't take up a lot of space making it clear it's to the shared hp total? It seems like a case of lose language instead of an effort to specify it as a distinct target of the effect.
The shared HP doesn't have a particular name but it says "the connection between you and your eidolon means you both share a single pool of Hit Points" which matches nicely with "Your eidolon attacks a living creature and drains some of the creature's life force to feed your shared link." The shared link reference makes no sense if it's only for the eidolon.
For a different example, Lifelink Surge also specifies the eidolon gaining the fast healing.
You make a quick gesture, tracing the link between yourself and your eidolon and drawing on your connection to slowly strengthen your shared life force. Your eidolon gains fast healing 4 for 4 rounds.
As a slight tangent, what happens if both the summoner and eidolon has fast healing? Do you only take the higher value like with aoes? Does it have any impact if the fast healing values or source are the same or different?
I think its a result of temp HP not healing you from 0 HP. So the temp HP is effectively useless. But not sure if that is intended of just misreading the rules.I’m not adverse to that being true, but I also cannot find that in the rules. The only specifics I can find regarding THP (temporary hit points) is that they usually have a duration, do not stack with other sources of THP, and are lost first before standard HP. Maybe there is a snippet somewhere hidden in another rule that supports that idea, but I know naught of it.As a player character, when you are reduced to 0 Hit Points, you’re knocked out with the following effects:So if you somehow manage to have Temporary HP but have 0 actual HP, then you would still be KO and Dying.
It is not exactly a common or standard state to be in, but some of the rulings and scenarios in this thread could cause it.
Yep. That's what I would have posted too if you hadn't beat me to the punch.
Nothing in the temporary hit point rules changes how the hit point rules works.
Sorry for keeping all the quotes, but it seems relevant to do so in this case.
THP are burned before actual HP and nothing in the rules linked (which was noted I read in a previous post I made here) indicates one could have THP while at 0 actual HP. I do not believe the consideration was ever there as the part of how the THP is removed first implied that one wouldn’t have any remaining before reaching 0 actual HP. Along with that, I don’t see how a shared hit point pool somehow would not include THP. I just don’t see how one, the summoner or eidolon, could have any HP, temporary or actual, without the other also having it. Plus, what use would THP be for a summoner if one could just attack the eidolon and drop them both without burning the THP first. That goes in the other way too with the eidolon getting THP and the summoner being the direct recipient of damage.
For a different example, Lifelink Surge also specifies the eidolon gaining the fast healing.
You make a quick gesture, tracing the link between yourself and your eidolon and drawing on your connection to slowly strengthen your shared life force. Your eidolon gains fast healing 4 for 4 rounds.As a slight tangent, what happens if both the summoner and eidolon has fast healing? Do you only take the higher value like with aoes? Does it have any impact if the fast healing values or source are the same or different?
I can’t say with absolute certainty to the rules, but the most likely case is that the highest value would apply just like persistent damage.
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For a different example, Lifelink Surge also specifies the eidolon gaining the fast healing.
You make a quick gesture, tracing the link between yourself and your eidolon and drawing on your connection to slowly strengthen your shared life force. Your eidolon gains fast healing 4 for 4 rounds.As a slight tangent, what happens if both the summoner and eidolon has fast healing? Do you only take the higher value like with aoes? Does it have any impact if the fast healing values or source are the same or different?
Secrets of Magic pg. 54 "Like with your actions, if you and your eidolon are both subject to the same effect that affects your Hit Points, you apply those effects only once (applying the greater effect, if applicable)."
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Question though, if the summoner receives temporary hit points and the eidolon does not, doesn’t that leave an issue if the summoner still has their temporary HP but otherwise is at 0 HP because the eidolon got dropped?
It does resolve this issue though. There is no question about what happens if the Summoner gets temp HP all for themselves and the Eidolon doesn't, and then the Eidolon gets dropped to 0 HP.
The Summoner still goes unconscious and Dying because they are at 0 HP even with their own pool of temp HP remaining.
For a different example, Lifelink Surge also specifies the eidolon gaining the fast healing.
You make a quick gesture, tracing the link between yourself and your eidolon and drawing on your connection to slowly strengthen your shared life force. Your eidolon gains fast healing 4 for 4 rounds.As a slight tangent, what happens if both the summoner and eidolon has fast healing? Do you only take the higher value like with aoes? Does it have any impact if the fast healing values or source are the same or different?Secrets of Magic pg. 54 "Like with your actions, if you and your eidolon are both subject to the same effect that affects your Hit Points, you apply those effects only once (applying the greater effect, if applicable)."
Good pull. This reinforces the idea of shared temporary hit points too.
If only temporary hit points affected your Hit Points.
"Your eidolon gains temporary Hit Points equal to the enemy's level, which last for 1 minute."
It also says this. Why specify the eidolon?
I don't think it will have much of an effect on gameplay most of the time. As a GM you should probably plan how you will run it before any arguments start if someone is playing an Undead Eidolon.
Because it's written in the eidolon section? I think if it was a summoner ability it's be written as 'you gain'. How do you write it as to NOT reference either the summoner or the eidolon and don't take up a lot of space making it clear it's to the shared hp total? It seems like a case of lose language instead of an effort to specify it as a distinct target of the effect.
The shared HP doesn't have a particular name but it says "the connection between you and your eidolon means you both share a single pool of Hit Points" which matches nicely with "Your eidolon attacks a living creature and drains some of the creature's life force to feed your shared link." The shared link reference makes no sense if it's only for the eidolon.
The rules specify the eidolon gains them. It's not unclear.
So the undead eidolon could gain temp hit points via it's life drain. And the summoner could gain temp hit points via a spell like vampiric touch. Then you have to track who is hit and whose temp hit points come off first.
The eidolon and summoner are still both separate entities even with the fiddly summoner rules. They have to be buffed separately. You have to pick which target to heal and in the case of the undead eidolon it cannot be healed by positive energy spells. The summoner can be healed by positive energy spells, but the eidolon is only healed by negative energy heal spells. If you cast an invisibility, you must do so on each.
So I see no reason to believe that each separate entity can gain their own temporary hit point pool and thus the GM must track who gets hit and what pool is depleted for individual attacks.
That's likely how I'll run it until I see some official answer.
That being said I don't expect Temp Hit points to have much of an impact on the summoner/eidolon as a whole. As someone playing one, temp hit points are so low they get ripped through quickly in PF2.
The rules specify the eidolon gains them. It's not unclear.
It's COMPLETELY unclear as they count as the same creature for HP effects: I can say 'I heal the eidolon', but it affects both.
So the undead eidolon could gain temp hit points via it's life drain. And the summoner could gain temp hit points via a spell like vampiric touch. Then you have to track who is hit and whose temp hit points come off first.
You could OR it could be one set of temp hp. Calling out 1 target doesn't mean it only affects that one target when we know that other effects to hp affect both.
The eidolon and summoner are still both separate entities even with the fiddly summoner rules. They have to be buffed separately. You have to pick which target to heal and in the case of the undead eidolon it cannot be healed by positive energy spells. The summoner can be healed by positive energy spells, but the eidolon is only healed by negative energy heal spells. If you cast an invisibility, you must do so on each.
Except for hp effects, so what heals one heals the other through the link: I'd count temp hp as such.
So I see no reason to believe that each separate entity can gain their own temporary hit point pool
I agree up to this point.
The rules specify the eidolon gains them. It's not unclear.It's COMPLETELY unclear as they count as the same creature for HP effects: I can say 'I heal the eidolon', but it affects both.
So the undead eidolon could gain temp hit points via it's life drain. And the summoner could gain temp hit points via a spell like vampiric touch. Then you have to track who is hit and whose temp hit points come off first.You could OR it could be one set of temp hp. Calling out 1 target doesn't mean it only affects that one target when we know that other effects to hp affect both.
The eidolon and summoner are still both separate entities even with the fiddly summoner rules. They have to be buffed separately. You have to pick which target to heal and in the case of the undead eidolon it cannot be healed by positive energy spells. The summoner can be healed by positive energy spells, but the eidolon is only healed by negative energy heal spells. If you cast an invisibility, you must do so on each.Except for hp effects, so what heals one heals the other through the link: I'd count temp hp as such.
So I see no reason to believe that each separate entity can gain their own temporary hit point poolI agree up to this point.
Temp hit points are not healing. But I see no problem with your ruling in a situation that is unclear like this.
I don't believe it will have a material impact on the class one way or the other. I would not consider it a high priority need for clarification as I cannot think of many cases where the eidolon having the temp hit points is going to impact the game.
I consider it more of a DM/player bookkeeping situation so both know at what point of attack the temp hit points will take the hit. Summoners have multiple points of attack as I have found out the hard way having played one. A summoner's dual attack points is a pretty big exploitable weakness that temp hit points will not alter much.
Temp hit points are not healing. But I see no problem with your ruling in a situation that is unclear like this.
Not claiming it's healing but affecting hp is a fit for me: saying "affects your Hit Points" instead of healing leaves it a judgement call and to me the context of the ability pushes me further in that direction. I too wouldn't mind either way of working and agree it matters mostly in paperwork.