Sunder Errata?


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

Did sunder get an errata or FAQ fix? Is it in the works for still being considered or no?


What needs a fixin?

Hides from the word fixed


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As in "made easier"? Unlikely, given how in Starfinder, attack damage is almost entirely weapon dependent. It was intentionally made so hard to pull off that it won't be used except once in a very blue moon. Probably they should have just gone the PF2e route and kicked sunder out of the rules system altogether.

Liberty's Edge

I saw this thread and I thought it was pretty broken in terms of usability. I also tried looking up sunder builds and I could not find any. In fact most threads I found everyone said, don't do it.

https://www.enworld.org/threads/help-me-understand-sunder.669520/

Quote:

We'll set up a level 5 Vanguard with Cascade Aspect (Sunder maneuver feat), Penetrating Entropic Attunement, and a Frost Maul for the sunder special (pretend it's level 5).

If he uses the sunder combat maneuver:

1) His to-hit will be +6 (+4 from the feat, +2 from the weapon) vs KAC+8, making it a check vs KAC+2. (I'll assume the basic attack is enough to make it a 50/50 hit chance vs normal KAC.) Then I can vaguely approximate this as dropping from a 50% chance to hit to a 40% chance to hit (or a 30% chance without the maul). That's already a significant penalty, and still requires a feat and special weapon just to make it "just a little bit" bad.

2) The average hardness of a weapon (p.409) is 5 + 2 * weapon/armor level. Assuming the enemy has a level 5 weapon to match the character, that's a hardness of 15. With the Penetrating Entropic Attunement, that's reduced by the attacker's weapon level (5), so we're at 10.

3) The Entropic Strike damage for a level 5 Vanguard is 1d6 + Con. Con at level 5 is likely 19, for a +4 bonus. The maximum possible damage that can be done by the Vanguard is 10 damage. The target weapon hardness reduces damage by 10. It is therefore impossible to ever do any damage with the sunder maneuver.

4) Even if something did manage to push the damage result into the net positive, the level 5 target weapon has 15 + 3*weapon level hit points. So for our level 5 weapon, that's 30 hit points. If I add an extra +2 Con augment and manage to roll max damage, I can now do 11 damage, reduced to 1 damage due to the weapon's hardness. So after 30 attacks (with a 30%-40% hit chance, and rolling max damage each time), I'd manage to finally break the opponent's weapon. Or, using the actual probabilities, it would take me an average of 450 attacks to break a level 5 weapon.

Compare with Entropic Grasp, a level 3 spell which can do 6d6 damage when attempting to sunder an object. That's an average of 21 damage, compared to the maximum of 10-11 (and average of about 8) for the Vanguard's attack. Even that would still take 5 casts to break a level 5 weapon, assuming the full 15 hardness applies its damage reduction. (If it doesn't, then only 2 casts.)

So, baseline, I have a crappy chance to do nothing. This seems beyond ludicrous.

Please tell me I'm missing something. Two of the Vanguard's Aspects provide the Improved Combat Feat (sunder), which means two of the Aspects might as well not give any bonus feat at all. Having two such Aspects also suggests that Paizo is leaning towards this being the more intended design goal for the Vanguard class, relative to the other available combat maneuvers.

Starfinder has been out for a while now. I would have thought there would have been a fixing to the hardness of things.


At high levels adamantine weapons, penetrating weapon property, and and Ulrikka Duster fusion let you ignore hardness pretty easily.

But that’s for doors. Disarm weapons.


That just means that the vanguard sundering isn't very good, not that sundering doesn't work. Try a large unwieldy weapon made of adamantine and run it again.

The problem isn't that it doesn't work so much that you're wrecking your own loot.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

That just means that the vanguard sundering isn't very good, not that sundering doesn't work. Try a large unwieldy weapon made of adamantine and run it again.

The problem isn't that it doesn't work so much that you're wrecking your own loot.

It still seems like there would be a problem with hp, cuz even assuming you get adamantine weapons (which is feasible at mid-levels if you're prepared to pay out a bit extra) you still have to face the 5+3*lvl hp.

Which by 10nth lvl is 35 hp.
According to my maths you still would need to attack a lvl 10 item (with me running this with a lvl 11 advanced melee weapon with 4d8dmg) about 6.25 times. yikes. Another note, adamantine's "ignore hardness" thing only works up to 30 hardness, meaning that once you hit lvl 13 your adamantine items don't even work any more. (cuz the hardness reaches 5+2x(13)= 31)

On another note, I take your point about destroying loot, I just would have hoped this could be slightly more viable. (otherwise my party may as well try and kidnap a rust monster instead)


A 4d8 adamantine melee weapon at 11th level optimized for max strength is averaging 26 damage per hit. Strength and specialization apply. Two hits, sometimes one hit. More frequently one hit if you further optimize with other bonuses (e.g. melee striker gear boost).

If it’s armor in vacuum you’re talking about a potential one round hit kill.

Adamantine and Ulrikka Duster works forever to eliminate hardness.


I thought the rules somewhere said "You cannot sunder armor, period"?


You’re right, must be held or an object worn but that could be drawn into a hand.

That latter is a fringe sunder benefit over disarm - you can’t disarm a worn object without Divine Blessing (Besmara) feat.


Xenocrat wrote:
Adamantine and Ulrikka Duster works forever to eliminate hardness.

Just remember the FAQ says:

How do effects that ignore hardness interact with each other?

If multiple effects would reduce or ignore hardness, apply only the effect that reduces or ignores the most hardness.

So you'd only get the bigger effect.

Liberty's Edge

I mean, weapons can be repaired if need be. But like it was pointed out adamantine becomes useless for sunder at lvl 11 it seems. Even if it does eventually go through hardness, you have to use sunder a ridiculous amount of time to actually break the weapon.

So yes, I think it needs a review at least.


Yure wrote:

I mean, weapons can be repaired if need be. But like it was pointed out adamantine becomes useless for sunder at lvl 11 it seems. Even if it does eventually go through hardness, you have to use sunder a ridiculous amount of time to actually break the weapon.

So yes, I think it needs a review at least.

Why does it need a review? Sunder literally only hurts players. Why does it need to be effective?

Liberty's Edge

I mean things only sell for 10% of what they are worth and if nobody in the party is using it... It's not really destroying much. Items can also be repaired for at the most 200 UPBs.

I mean... I could sunder an enemy weapon as a vanguard... And repair the loot... Or I can bull rush them into the abyss with momentum aspect and we can lose the story critical item.

Either way, all instance where I would use either combat maneuvers are edge occasions. I just thought it was silly that they make it so hard to do one over the other.

Like.. you are right. I could disarm. Like forever. Or I could just keep tripping. Or I could just keep grappling. Like all those shutdown a scenario pretty equally. Well except momentum bull rush... That's like a bye begone. But some of those distinctively work better and have less downside than the other.

I guess there is the shatter property.


Most enemies have read the evil overlord list and know not to summon an abyss portal bigger than their head.

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