Scroll Thaumaturgy

[Tunu40]

Sorry for another topic.

However, I was under the impression for the last 6 months that the Thaumaturge does not require using "Trick Magic Item" for scrolls. I also commonly see it mentioned, so I figured bringing it to the official forums would be a way to help solidify it.

During a discussion on Scroll Thaumaturgy vs. Scroll Trickster, I delved into the rule. I now believe I was VERY wrong: Thaumaturges DO require using "Trick Magic Items". Taking from my post:

Scroll Thaumaturgy
"Your multidisciplinary study of magic means you know how to activate the magic in scrolls with ease. You can **activate scrolls of any magical tradition, using your thaumaturge class DC for the scroll's DC, rather than a particular spell DC**. If a spell is on the spell list for multiple traditions, you choose which tradition to use at the time you activate the scroll. You can draw and activate scrolls with the same hand holding an implement, much like you can for esoterica."

Activate
"If an item lists “Cast a Spell” after “Activate,” the **activation requires you to use the Cast a Spell activity to Activate the Item**. This happens when the item replicates a spell. You must have a spellcasting class feature to Activate an Item with this activation component. If the item can be used for a specific spell, the action icon for that spell is provided. If it's an item like a staff, which can be used for many spells, the icon is omitted, and you must refer to each spell to determine which actions you must spend to Activate the Item to cast it."

Trick Magic Item
"You examine a magic item **you normally couldn’t use** in an effort to fool it and activate it temporarily. For example, this might allow a fighter to cast a spell from a wand or allow a wizard to cast a spell that’s not on the arcane list using a scroll. You must know what activating the item does, or you can’t attempt to trick it."

"If you activate a magic item that requires a spell attack roll or spell DC and you don’t have the ability to cast spells of the relevant tradition, use your level as your proficiency bonus and the highest of your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifiers. If you’re a master in the appropriate skill for the item’s tradition, you instead use the trained proficiency bonus, and if you’re legendary, you instead use the expert proficiency bonus."

The Scroll Thaumaturgy rule actually might just be adjusting the Spell DC when activating a scroll in Trick Magic Item and not the Activate action.

For Trick Magic Item, the spell DC proficiency is...

Trick Magic Item:
Lvl 2: Level + Highest Mental
Lvl 7: Trained
Lvl 15: Expert

Scroll Thaumaturgy:
Lvl 1: Trained
Lvl 9: Expert
Lvl 17: Master

A lvl 2 thaumaturge with +4 CHA wants to use a Scroll of Shocking Grasp. Per (what I assume is the correct interpretation) the rules for activating a scroll without the proper spellcasting feature, you would need to Trick Magic Item to activate a scroll (even a temporary scroll that they gain from Scroll Estoerica). They can still crit fail the TMI. If they do successfully TMI, then the Scroll Thaumaturge feat kicks in and your melee spell attack roll would be +8 (class DC) instead of +6 (TMI skill).

I feel pretty confident that this is a strong argument, but having a few more EXTREMELY smart people and confirming if it's right (or how wrong I am) would put my mind at ease. Thank you very much again!

[HammerJack]

No. Trick Magic Item is not required.

Default: you must be a spellcaster and have the spell on your list to Activate a scroll.

Alternate method: a character who would normally be unable to Activate the scroll can use Trick Magic Item. The specific rule of

Separate alternate method: a thaumayurgw with Scroll Thaumaturgy can activate the scroll. The specific rule (the feat saying they can Activate scrolls) overrides the general rule (the Activating Items rules saying they don't qualify).

[MrCharisma]

Specific trumps general.

Generally you can't activate scrolls of a tradition you can't cast.

Trick Magic Item is a more specific rule that bypasses the general rule and gives you the mechanics for how it works.

Scroll Thaumaturgy is a separate specific rule that overrides the general rule and makes no mention of Trick Magic Item.

You're overthinking this. Sorry.

[MrCharisma]

Ninja'd!

[breithauptclan]

Thirded. Scroll Thaumaturgy says that you can activate scrolls. It says nothing about having to use Trick Magic Item to do it.

The wording for the Scroll Thaumaturgy feat that would require still using Trick Magic Item would have:

1) Trick Magic Item would be a prerequisite.
2) It wouldn't say anything about being able to activate magic items - Trick Magic Item would do that. It would only say that you would use your Thaumaturge Class DC instead of the spell DC of the scroll.

Also, that would be a pretty weak feat if that was all that it did.

[PossibleCabbage]

Feats generally don't reference different feats unless they have those other feats as prerequisites. Nothing about "Scroll Thaumaturgy" requires you to be aware that "Trick Magic Item" exists.

At the very least if "what a specific feat does" was relevant to a different feat, that feat would be mentioned by name (with "this is rules text Capitalization") in the text.

[Gortle]

Scroll Thaumaturgy says You can activate scrolls of any magical tradition
Trick Magic Item says a magic item you normally couldn’t use

Both are worthwhile. But if you have Scroll Thaumaturgy then scrolls don't qualify for Trick Magic Item for you. They are two separate options.

Don't worry too much about getting stuff wrong, we all do. Just have fun I'm sure the typical game has several rules errors in it. Then there are the rules that are genuinely ambiguous...