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The Elven Curve Blade is kind of in an odd position as a Finesse weapon that is two-handed.
Most classes that rely on Finesse weapons like the Swashbuckler, or at least work well with them like the Thaumaturge, have specific rules that incentivize sticking to one-handed ones like the Rapier and Shortsword, while others who use two-handers generally have enough Strength to not bother with Finesse weapons in the first place, like the Fighter, Champion and Barbarian.
So...what kind of character is the Elven Curve Blade FOR?
Non-martials. The main and near only asset of the Elven Curve Blade is that you can grab the proficienvy through Ancestry feats.
Otherwise, it pales compared to Aldori Dueling Sword and even the Rapier.
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Non-martials. The main and near only asset of the Elven Curve Blade is that you can grab the proficienvy through Ancestry feats.
Otherwise, it pales compared to Aldori Dueling Sword and even the Rapier.
In that case, why even bother with the ECB at all, since that same ancestry feat grants you proficiency with the rapier too anyway?
Rogues, investigators, and swashbucklers. Could also function as a backup melee weapon for other dedicated ranged characters. A ranged weapon inventor is pretty good at that kind of option since they can have 2 weapons share runes.
Don't those classes generally have things that encourage them to stick to one-handed finesse weapons with the other hand free, like the Sawshbuckler's Duelling Parry and Duelling Dance feats?
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A swash (or a Rogue) can certainly make use of the Elven Curved Blade. Swash does have feats which gives you benefits for having a free hand but that doesn't mean you have to use them, they are only options after all.
The role it would have is squeezing out a bit more damage than all other finesse options available if that suits oneself.
I was trying to make an Inexorable Iron Magus with Druid Dedication for Strength of Thousands using an ECB -- needed to be Dex based since the Druid no metal armor. It felt a little too MAD, and ended up changing to a Sparkling Targe Magus/Wizard since the party needed more defense. I'd like to still play around with an ECB Magus, but once you can use the upper end of the medium armors, the elven branched spear is probably more fun, for me at least, to build around.
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Rogues, investigators, and swashbucklers. Could also function as a backup melee weapon for other dedicated ranged characters. A ranged weapon inventor is pretty good at that kind of option since they can have 2 weapons share runes.Don't those classes generally have things that encourage them to stick to one-handed finesse weapons with the other hand free, like the Sawshbuckler's Duelling Parry and Duelling Dance feats?
I am not seeing anything in Rogue or Investigator that doesn't work with 2-hand weapons. Sneak Attack and Devise a Strategem (INT substitution and therefore Strategic Strike and a few feats) need Agile or Finesse weapons - which the Elven Curved Blade qualifies as.
I think an INT>DEX>STR Investigator could get a lot of value from the Elven Curved Blade. They already have the martial weapon proficiency (where Rogues don't). So it wouldn't take any feats - just access (though ancestry feats are the easiest way to get access).
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I think (Half) Elf Rogue Thieves might be the only ones that get enough value out of an ECB, though even then I'd prefer the one-hand, agile, & light bulk of a short sword to the extra die increase & feat cost. A free hand is too valuable IMO.
If willing to pay a price just to look cool, an Elf Dex-Monk can do fine with it (albeit worse off than other finesse options w/ less cost).
But yeah, the rapier is about even yet gives a valuable free hand so I'm unsure what niche an ECB was intended for. It might only be featured due to lore & tradition. I can't see the other martials wanting it as the Dex ones as you pointed out lean toward one-handed weapons and the others have equivalent options that don't tie up both hands.
I have dabbled with the idea of a Mauler using one, though that's both niche and contrived. Could be funny though, using Avalanche Strike as a Rogue while invisible. :-)
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Does it even outdamage the d6 deadly d8 elf spear? Even if it does, I can't imagine it's by much.
Just another mediocre weapon you use for flavor rather than any mechanical reason.
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It's the biggest die size you can get on a finesse weapon and doesn't require advanced weapon proficiency like the dueling sword. If those things matter to you, it stands out a bit.
It would fit its niche better if it was d10 finesse instead of d8 finesse forceful, since only gaining one die size over its 1h counterparts makes spending the extra hand a hard sell and forceful is just kind of a bad trait.
Monks with ancestral weaponry aren't bad either. Too bad it can't work with peafowl stance.
It can, w/ Ancestral Weaponry giving ECB the Monk trait.
That's several feats for practically zero return, but if one likes the imagery. Compare to a Bo Staff which grants Reach (Str) or most any d8 Stance w/ Finesse which all operate off of one feat.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Flurry rangers can get a lot out of the Elven Curve Blade and a switch-hitting build.
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It's not several feats though. It's just one from ancestral weaponry. Monastic weaponry is akin to the cost of taking a stance feat. Just with the benefit of not needing to spend the action.
Not sure I completely believe that.
You would need Monastic Weaponry and Ancestral Weaponry in order to get the Monk trait onto the sword.
You would also need Elven Weapon Familiarity.
All to get a 1d8 finesse weapon.
That is two feats (one class feat and one ancestry feat) above what is needed to get Tiger Stance - which is also a 1d8 finesse weapon. One that has agile instead of forceful, and also doesn't take up either hand, and has a bleed effect on a critical hit. Oh, and increases your step distance.
It's potentially valuable, but it's on one of the most action efficient classes in the game, which kind of diminishes that value a bit.
And even if you really need that third action (like if an enemy is just too far away), the stance monk can just not enter a stance, because one of the most damning things about Monastic Weaponry as a feat is that most of the weapons it gives you aren't even particularly better (sometimes worse) than your d6 agile/finesse fists.
Bo Staff builds are good, but that's more an exception for the feat than the norm.
I've mostly seen rogues use them. The player is not a great optimizer, so he takes it for the d8 damage. I think a dex rogue would do better with a rapier or shortsword.
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I've mostly seen rogues use them. The player is not a great optimizer, so he takes it for the d8 damage. I think a dex rogue would do better with a rapier or shortsword.
This: The Elven Curve Blade and the Spiked Chain are the only d8 finesse martial weapon options for Thief Rogues, which makes them much easier to use than any of the Advanced options (Rogues are only proficient in a handful of Martial Weapons, so treating an advanced weapon as Martial leaves them stuck at 'trained' proficiency level at best without an archetype of some sort).
The big drawback (beyond the ancestry feat requirement) is the 2 bulk, which is a lot for a typically low-strength build...
Does it even outdamage the d6 deadly d8 elf spear? Even if it does, I can't imagine it's by much.
Just another mediocre weapon you use for flavor rather than any mechanical reason.
It's a few points of damage more per 2-action sequence, at least for something like a Rogue which gets a pile of bonus dice independent of weapon die. Most Finesse users *are* like that because their damage dice are small, but the curved blade shines particularly well for Flurry Ranger thanks to its die size and Forceful trait, dealing 5 more per 3-action attack sequence than the branched spear, which of course adds up considerably...and is of course not *as* much better than also having an agile d6 attack and using that with the d6 deadly one, but that's a different kind of investment, especially if you opt for two weapons to use Twin Takedown or something. For a lower-investment switch-hitting option with Flurry Ranger, curved blade is *quite* decent.
There's a damage tool here if you ever want to actually check stuff, but it needs to be used with care. White room ain't everything, of course. https://bahalbach.github.io/PF2Calculator/
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I know about the tool, but thanks for following up on my laziness. As I suspected though, the damage gain is embarrassing low considering you're giving up reach.
I've theory crafted a Two-Handed Investigator before that takes the Mauler archetype which looked kind of fun.
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Investigators. It is a finesse weapon so it works out with their devise a stratagem, they start proficient in it, and it gives them a bigger damage die than they can normally get (‘normal being d6 from a rapier or short sword). Swashbucklers tend to be one-weapon focused (off hand buckler/free/dual wielding) and rogues don’t start proficient in it, though if they got proficiency (such as with elven weapon familiarity) then it would also be great for thief rogues.
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Okay, I came up with this idea. Hear me out:
Elf Monk with Elven Weapon Familiarity (probably the alternate ability score boosts of a human for Strength-Dex
Level 1 pick up Monastic weaponry, level 2, Ancestral weaponry. Level 4, Stoked Flame Stance, level 10, Blazing Streak.
You can now, in your bathrobe, blaze past four people and attack each of them once with your (Katana-like) Elven Curved blade, allowing you to do that anime samurai thing where you rush past everyone and only when you are done with your movement does everyone start bleeding.
I'm really confused... this isn't a hard question to me at all so I feel like I MUST be missing something.
The answer to "what classes get the most out of [WEAPON]?" is always, with the sole exception of firearms and Gunslinger, Fighter.
With the sole exception of Ranged, Simple, Finesse and d4/d6 damage weapons.
So most weapons are bad on a Fighter.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm really confused... this isn't a hard question to me at all so I feel like I MUST be missing something.
The answer to "what classes get the most out of [WEAPON]?" is always, with the sole exception of firearms and Gunslinger, Fighter.
With the sole exception of Ranged, Simple, Finesse and d4/d6 damage weapons.
So most weapons are bad on a Fighter.
"Which class gets the most out of a specific weapon" is not the same question as "which weapon will do the most for a specific class." ECB, or any other weapon being a bad choice for a fighter, does not change the fact that Themetricicsystem is likely correct that Fighters are apt to get the most out of ECB.
"Which class gets the most out of a specific weapon" is not the same question as "which weapon will do the most for a specific class." ECB, or any other weapon being a bad choice for a fighter, does not change the fact that Themetricicsystem is likely correct that Fighters are apt to get the most out of ECB.I'm really confused... this isn't a hard question to me at all so I feel like I MUST be missing something.
The answer to "what classes get the most out of [WEAPON]?" is always, with the sole exception of firearms and Gunslinger, Fighter.
With the sole exception of Ranged, Simple, Finesse and d4/d6 damage weapons.
So most weapons are bad on a Fighter.
I think I'd push back on that assumption. I haven't run the numbers here, but the agile/finesse only classes get extra damage that's meant to make up for two things:
1. Fighters getting higher accuracy
2. Fighters hitting with bigger weapons. (D12 here.)
Fighters still have their higher accuracy, but they are leaving damage on the table by using two hands on an elven curve blade. (At least 2 die sizes, and probably at least a point or two of strength.) If rogues/Swashbucklers/etc are still behind them in damage, it will at least be by significantly less.
Fighters also don't make amazing switch hitters, which is one of the chief use cases for the curve blade.
An elven giant instinct Barbarian who was dex focused could have a pretty interesting whirlwind strike with a curved blade.
I'm really confused... this isn't a hard question to me at all so I feel like I MUST be missing something.
Yes you are missing something. You should actually read the initial post not just the title:
So...what kind of character is the Elven Curve Blade FOR?
The answer to "what classes get the most out of [WEAPON]?" is always, with the sole exception of firearms and Gunslinger, Fighter.
This is a different question.
Seems like the basic answer is "a dex-based elf frontliner who wants to spend a lot of actions on attacking". So the flurry ranger is the obvious choice but I imagine a rogue with a reliable flanking partner could work.
Seems like the basic answer is "a dex-based elf frontliner who wants to spend a lot of actions on attacking". So the flurry ranger is the obvious choice but I imagine a rogue with a reliable flanking partner could work.
Yep someone who want to get into two handed weapons instead of two weapon.
There are some places it can do wierd things. EG imagine a low strength, high dexterity Ranger taking the Mauler Archetype to get into PowerAttack and even Improved Knockdown, without having to worry about their abysmal Athletics score.
An elven monk with ancestral weaponry can use elven curve blade with peafowl stance. Combined with flurry of blows, this gives you some decent mobility for getting an extra attack in each round
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An elven monk with ancestral weaponry can use elven curve blade with peafowl stance. Combined with flurry of blows, this gives you some decent mobility for getting an extra attack in each round
Peafowl Stance is limited to wielding a sword in one hand though.
"Which class gets the most out of a specific weapon" is not the same question as "which weapon will do the most for a specific class." ECB, or any other weapon being a bad choice for a fighter, does not change the fact that Themetricicsystem is likely correct that Fighters are apt to get the most out of ECB.
As Morgan remarked, the Fighter doesn't get much out of the ECB. Its damage drops significantly and ends up in the low end, making the whole character quite useless (a low damage Fighter is a weak character as damage is the Fighter shtick).
In the meantime, a Thief Rogue will outdamage the Fighter while at the same time being a skill monkey. It's a valid build, even if not a strong one.Fighters are only massive with Strength-based weapons with as high of a damage dice as possible. They don't have any class-based damage enhancer so lowering either the damage dice or the attribute bonus to damage hurts them much more than other classes.
Seems like the basic answer is "a dex-based elf frontliner who wants to spend a lot of actions on attacking". So the flurry ranger is the obvious choice but I imagine a rogue with a reliable flanking partner could work.
The only Flurry Ranger build who really shines is the Strength-based dual wielder with an Agile off-hand weapon.
The ECB being a 2-handed Finesse weapon, the Flurry Ranger will not get much out of it. A Precision Ranger will outdamage it quite easily (and Precision Rangers are not really good with 2-handed weapons either, but at least they are ok with Finesse weapons).
The ECB being a 2-handed Finesse weapon, the Flurry Ranger will not get much out of it. A Precision Ranger will outdamage it quite easily (and Precision Rangers are not really good with 2-handed weapons either, but at least they are ok with Finesse weapons).
Flurry Ranger might still be chosen if the character is primarily an archer. It can sot of make sense because of the action cost of swapping weapons.
The ECB being a 2-handed Finesse weapon, the Flurry Ranger will not get much out of it. A Precision Ranger will outdamage it quite easily (and Precision Rangers are not really good with 2-handed weapons either, but at least they are ok with Finesse weapons).Flurry Ranger might still be chosen if the character is primarily an archer. It can sot of make sense because of the action cost of swapping weapons.
Personally, for that build I'd use a Bladed Gauntlet on the reloading hand to remove the action cost: it's Agile, Finesse, Free-Hand and Modular so you can get the most out of your dex and can target a particular damage type vulnerability [or avoid a resistance to one].
Personally, for that build I'd use a Bladed Gauntlet on the reloading hand to remove the action cost: it's Agile, Finesse, Free-Hand and Modular so you can get the most out of your dex and can target a particular damage type vulnerability [or avoid a resistance to one].
Yes it is an option, but it is lower dice so a player might go another way.
Realistically I'm using the ECB if I've gone with Elven Weapon Familiarity as I've got a caster with no Strength and limited weapon choices.
Maybe as a Thief Rogue looking to maximise one big hit. But I tend to go for Elven Branched Spear or just a Rapier.
The ECB being a 2-handed Finesse weapon, the Flurry Ranger will not get much out of it. A Precision Ranger will outdamage it quite easily (and Precision Rangers are not really good with 2-handed weapons either, but at least they are ok with Finesse weapons).Flurry Ranger might still be chosen if the character is primarily an archer. It can sot of make sense because of the action cost of swapping weapons.
Precision Rangers make better archers than Flurry ones. If you optimize for damage, you get higher with Precision. If you optimize for something else, you have more room with Precision.
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An elven monk with ancestral weaponry can use elven curve blade with peafowl stance. Combined with flurry of blows, this gives you some decent mobility for getting an extra attack in each roundPeafowl Stance is limited to wielding a sword in one hand though.
True. It still works decently with flurry of blows though, and whirling blade stance, but that won’t be until level 14