When attacking Hidden, Unnoticed or Undetected creatures, you need to succeed at a flat DC 11 check to attack them (if you even are attacking the right square, for Unnoticed and Undetected creatures), and when attacking Concealed creatures you need to succeed at a flat DC 5 check to attack them. If you fail at this check, then the attack fails.
But (according to the CRB Conditions Appendix) you do not need to roll this flat check for Area Attacks. Area attacks will attack Hidden/Undetected/Unnoticed/Concealed creatures normally. ("Dodge this!")
But I was wondering - how about a Whirlwind Strike (or similar), that attacks all enemies within range. Would that work on CHUU (Concealed/Hidden/Unnoticed/Undetected) enemies? Is such an attack considered an Area Attack?
I'm thinking the conclusion would have to be one of:
1) Whirlwind Strike is considered an Area Attack, and you may attack CHUU enemies without rolling a flat DC.
2) Whirlwind Strike is not considered an Area attack, but may be considered attacking (or attempting to attack) enemies in all hexes within melee range. You may attack CHUU enemies in hexes within range, but you will have to roll the flat DC for each individual target.
3) Whirlwind Strike is not considered an Area attack, and you may only attack enemies you can see. So - you may only attack Observed, Hidden or Concealed enemies within melee range, and you will have to roll the flat DC for each individual target (for Hidden or Concealed enemies).
My take is that Whirlwind Strike is 2). A fireball is a an area attack, a burst that affects all creatures within its range, whether they be friend or foe. Whirlwind Strike says "You attack all nearby adversaries. Make a melee Strike against each enemy within your melee reach.". So - it won't attack friendlies within range and is more selective. And - the feat doesn't say "area attack", or for that matter burst, cone, line or emanation.
And thus, my take is that you may choose which squares (not containing allies) you attack within melee range, and so you may attack all squares within range not containing allies. The DM could then make a show of rolling some hidden dice (maybe just for show) if there was any chance of there being any unnoticed/undetected enemies within melee range.
What do you think? :)
3) is correct.
Imagine you have enough actions to Strike each enemy within your reach. That's basically what Whirlwind Strike does (plus ignoring the MAP). So all rules for regular Strikes apply. And you can't target an Undetected or Unnoticed creature with a Strike.
3) is correct.
Imagine you have enough actions to Strike each enemy within your reach. That's basically what Whirlwind Strike does (plus ignoring the MAP). So all rules for regular Strikes apply. And you can't target an Undetected or Unnoticed creature with a Strike.
But you may target an Undetected or Unnoticed enemy with a Strike - by targeting its square.
Targeting an undetected creature is difficult. If you suspect there’s a creature around, you can pick a square and attempt an attack. This works like targeting a hidden creature, but the flat check and attack roll are both rolled in secret by the GM. The GM won’t tell you why you missed—whether it was due to failing the flat check, rolling an insufficient attack roll, or choosing the wrong square. The GM might allow you to try targeting an undetected creature with some spells or other abilities in a similar fashion. Undetected creatures are subject to area effects normally.
For instance, suppose an enemy elf wizard cast invisibility and then Sneaked away. You suspect that with the elf’s Speed of 30 feet, they probably moved 15 feet toward an open door. You move up and attack a space 15 feet from where the elf started and directly on the path to the door. The GM secretly rolls an attack roll and flat check, but they know that you were not quite correct— the elf was actually in the adjacent space! The GM tells you that you missed, so you decide to make your next attack on the adjacent space, just in case. This time, it’s the right space, and the GM’s secret attack roll and flat check both succeed, so you hit!
So yes - you can in deed attack Undetected and Unnoticed enemies - by targeting its square. And shouldn't Whirlwind Strike work in the same way? By attacking every square within range that doesn't contain an ally? You could do exactly that with regular strikes, if you had enough actions.
(Of course - you could then infer that you also gain MAP for every square you attempt to attack, if you choose to attack (seemingly) empty squares with a Whirlwind Strike, but usually that is a moot point, as is a three action ability, and you are probably already attacking two or more enemies anyway.)
Whirlwind Strike says you attack enemies, not squares.
And you REALLY don't want to roll an attack and a flat check for every single square in a giant barbarian's reach every single turn.
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Just like the base Strike action says to target a creature and not a square - but you can still specifically target a square with a Strike.
You attack with a weapon you’re wielding or with an unarmed attack, targeting one creature within your reach (for a melee attack) or within range (for a ranged attack).
Such attacks and flat checks should be rolled by the GM anyway - who could be content with rolling a check or two if there are doubts if there are unnoticed/undetected enemies. If there was only one potential creature that could have been in the targeted area, the GM could roll a single extra roll - and maybe the creature was in the targeted area, and maybe it wasn't.
I think it would be quite reasonable to allow a barbarian (or fighter, mauler etc. with similar abilities) to attack with a whirlwind attack even if there are no visible targets - to do a large swipe in the underbrush, trying to hit hidden goblins or similar, or for example to try to hit an invisible creature. Just like you (by the book) can use several Strikes to attack several squares, hoping to hit enemies.
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Whirlwind Strike is definitely not considered an area attack; it's a series of individual strikes.
But you can, in theory, attack every square in your reach if you knew it had an enemy in it. So why couldn't you attack every square in your reach if you suspected an unseen foe?
I'd probably allow that as GM. If a player were using WS in this way, Just make sure you (the gm) is rolling both the attack rolls and flat checks, as is the norm for targeting unseen foes with strikes.
And frankly, I don't even think it's OP.
Seek lets you search a 15ft burst with one action and a skill check.
WS lets you attack for 3 actions:
-base 5 ft
-10ft with reach or large size (plus the 15ft diagonals)
-15ft with reach and large size
-20ft with reach and huge size (yay Titan's Stature!)
(And presumably if you hit something in a square, now you know something is in that square)
If you wouldn't have to move in the case of seek + strike, you're rolling 3x to try and hit once for 2 actions.
However, if the seek succeeds you've gained some benefit, even if the strike misses. And you still have an action remaining to Point Out the invisible foe.
For WS, you're rolling 2x to try and hit 'n' number of times for 3 actions.
But missing either the flat check or the attack roll means you've spent 3 actions and accomplished nothing.
The way Whirlwind strike is written doesn't explicitly say you can target squares, it calls out creatures. But there is an argument to be made that you could strike all squares in reach. In fact, if enemies were in all the squares around your reach you could in fact attempt to hit them all, so this isn't terribly different. And you'd still have to make the flat check at DC 11 to even have a chance to hit in the first place.
Honestly the biggest reason I can find to say no is because it will waste a lot of time rolling so many dice.
Yeah - my thoughts too. As a GM I'd roll for all the observed/hidden figures, plus 0-2 extra. I would of course always roll for at least one figure if the character attacks with no visible enemies, to keep the players on their toes. Unless I had anticipated the move and already had pre-rolled the dice (heh, heh).
Player: I attack the darkness.
DM: (without rolling) You hit the darkness for 18 damage.
The rule also notes that GMs might wish to allow targeting squares for other abilities:
The GM might allow you to try targeting an undetected creature with some spells or other abilities in a similar fashion.
Blind-Fight is a useful feat to have in that situation too: No flat check to target concealed creatures at all, and even hidden ones only have a DC 5 check.
Plus it would be a good excuse to 'attack squares' as at least adjacent undetected foes are only considered hidden.
There's just one issue with attacking all the squares around you: Whirlwind Attack only targets enemies, when an Unnoticed creature can be either friend or foe.
I just say that to mess up with the discussion. Don't feel that you have to answer.
There's just one issue with attacking all the squares around you: Whirlwind Attack only targets enemies, when an Unnoticed creature can be either friend or foe.
In my opinion the rule for Whirlwind Strike is worded for brevity. It simply says "enemies" as opposed to "creatures" in the Strike action, to emphasize that you do not (also) attack allies. And so - it does not target (visible) friendlies. I'd personally say that Whirlwind Strike should work just in the same way as regular Strikes in those situations, however you'd rule such situations.
We do have the exact same problem with regular Strikes targeting squares. If I'm trying to hit an invisible enemy, then I could have the exact same problem targeting a square with a regular Strike, if there also is an undetected NPC ally (or other friendly) sneaking about.You could also argue that from the wording, Whirlwind Strike automatically targets all enemies (edit: and enemies only) within your reach no matter if they are unnoticed, undetected, observed, hidden, concealed or whatever - it simply states "Make a melee Strike against each enemy within your melee reach.". You could then also argue that it would be the GMs responsibility not to give away information when secretly rolling if you hit undetected/unnoticed enemy creatures.
So - a GM could rule that you only attack enemies, or maybe rule that Hidden, Undetected, and Unnoticed friendlies within reach are fair game (barring any PvP restrictions) and that the character could choose which squares to target to avoid hitting any unknown friendlies.
I guess I'd personally rule that you in general automatically only attack Hidden/Undetected/Unnoticed enemies in such situations, but that you once in a while could throw in an undetected sneaking NPC Ally about, where you may risk attacking that NPC if you do not choose squares wisely. But hey - that would probably be only in rare situations.
And I do not think, for that matter, that it would be OP to rule that Whirlwind Strike may only attack enemies, even if there are hidden/undetected/unnoticed allies about. Area attacks attack both friend and foe, but do not have to roll any flat DC for CHUU figures. Whirlwind Strike may then only attack enemies, but you have to roll the flat DC to hit.
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There are a few problems with this that preempt the whole conversation so I'll dig in.
Undetected enemies cannot be targeted and you by definition do not know what square they are in so if they are undetected you have zero information on where they are. By extension don't know if they are friend or foe and unfortunately "enemy" is not the same thing mechanically speaking as "creature" and to be honest, I don't buy the idea that they used "enemy" in order to save 3 characters on the page as "enemy" has a specific meaning just like the term "ally" does. If the ability said "creature" instead this wouldn't be an issue as others noted but it does not and this being the rules forum you're not going to get much grit under your tires trying to insist on interpretations or RAI as there is no evidence that they misprinted and mixed up the two terms, an enemy is an enemy by RAW.
Additionally, unnoticed creatures are ones you are completely unaware of and you have no idea they even exist and you have absolutely no ground to stand on with regard to even adding another Strike/Attack to the WWS effect to include an opponent you are unaware of as you are allowed those attacks against enemies, in other words, if you don't know something is there you cannot treat it as an enemy for the purpose of targeting, any other ruling such as having the GM roll secret checks for every square in your range "just in case" there is an enemy in those squares is mere munchkin metagaming IMO.
Also, this is something of a side note since this Feat is for both Fighter and Barbarian but in the latter case you need to bear in mind that Barbarians, while raging, are completely unable to use the Seek Action in order to remove their Hidden/Undetected/Unnoticed Condition versus you since the Seek Action has the Concentrate Trait and that is explicitly forbidden by Rage.
Otherwise, I'd just say that so long as the opponent is a known "enemy" and they have the Hidden Condition (not Undetected or Unnoticed) or some Concealment you can do this but your GM is the one who will have to roll the Attack/Strike Check and the Flat Check on their own as they are Secret Checks.
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You can Seek while Raging. Luckily, as it would make things quite complicated otherwise.
Undetected enemies cannot be targeted and you by definition do not know what square they are in so if they are undetected you have zero information on where they are.
Undetected enemies are still Enemies, and can be attacked by attacking squares. Even the passage in the rule book exemplifies a character running forward, swinging wildly at the empty air, hoping to hit the undetected enemy. Whether you do this with a sweeping Whirlwind attack, by attacking certain squares with Strikes, cast a fireball, cast burning hands, or maybe empty a clip at the bushes in a modern RPG using an automatic weapon - is immaterial.
The rule for Whirlwind Strike says "Enemies", while the rule for Strike says "Creatures". I am very glad that they have written the rule for Whirlwind attack using the word "Enemies" and not "Creatures" - otherwise you would have a lot of confusion whether you also target friendlies with a Whirlwind attack. If it said Make a melee Strike against each creature within your melee reach players could very easily have believed that Whirlwind Strike also attacked friendlies like a Fireball, which it does not.
And an undetected Enemy is still an Enemy. (I feel my tires have pretty good traction on that one.)
I'd also argue that for example Terrifying Howl could just as well frighten undetected or unnoticed enemies. The Barbarian is just as frightening even if he/she/it doesn't know exactly where you are.
Unnoticed enemies: If a party has been attacked by several goblins in the underbrush, and the fighter manically starts swinging wildly at certain squares instead of first performing a seek action - I don't see the problem with that.
As a side note - while Whirlwind Strike is for Fighters and Barbarians, the Mauler archetype has Avalanche Strike, which enables other classes to attack this way too.
I'd also argue that for example Terrifying Howl could just as well frighten undetected or unnoticed enemies. The Barbarian is just as frightening even if he/she/it doesn't know exactly where you are.
Terrifying Howl is an AoE effect and as such it targets all Undetected and Unnoticed enemies without a flat check.
Whirlwind Strike is a multi target effect, which is handled very differently. And using the rules for Striking on a square where you don't know what could be there is definitely raising questions about the Barbarian ability to dissociate friends from foes.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It seems to me like since you could every square if it had a visible enemy, you could target every square if held a possible enemy as well. However, if you can't distinguish between friend or foe because both are undetected within reach, I wouldn't let you cheese your way out of magically missing your ally.
Just have the GM secretly roll the appropriate amount of strikes and flat checks. They can throw in a dummy roll or two to keep you guessing.
It seems to me like since you could every square if it had a visible enemy, you could target every square if held a possible enemy as well. However, if you can't distinguish between friend or foe because both are undetected within reach, I wouldn't let you cheese your way out of magically missing your ally.
Just have the GM secretly roll the appropriate amount of strikes and flat checks. They can throw in a dummy roll or two to keep you guessing.
Yeah - just about my conclusion too. It's a bit circumstantial, though. If an undetected ally is amongst attacked squares I would probably not allow it, but I'd allow attacking the entire "front sector", without any chance of hitting an undetected ally behind the character.