Hello!
I had this come up recently in a game I'm running, and wanted to get some external assistance since I can't find a good answer for it via Google. Thank you in advance for your help!
So the question currently, is Casting targeted spells on things that you don't know are applicable targets. For example given, Magic missile has "1-5 Target creatures" which means you can't use it on weapons the enemy is holding, doors, the bad guy's orb of ultimate power etc. But how does this interact with say an illusion of a dragon? It technically isn't a creature, and thus, isn't a viable target for the spell to be cast, even if the caster thinks it is. And on the opposite side of the coin, if you have the wizard checking a suspicious chest to see if it's a mimic by casting magic missile on it. If it IS a mimic, it's a valid target for the spell, even if he doesn't KNOW it's a valid target. And if it's not a valid target, what happens? The spell just doesn't cast? The spell is used but fizzles?
Originally, this came up a while back because a player wanted to use 'permanent' deathwatch via the deathwatch glasses item to negate stealth checks and invisibility, since "Using the powers of necromancy, you can determine the condition of creatures near death within the spell’s range. You instantly know whether each creature within the area is dead, fragile (alive and wounded, with 3 or fewer hit points left), fighting off death (alive with 4 or more hit points), healthy, undead, or neither alive nor dead (such as a construct). Deathwatch sees through any spell or ability that allows creatures to feign death." So they were saying that if it's a construct object pretending to be a statue, without making any checks they should automatically know it's a creature and what HP it is at. I ruled at the time that you have to perceive the statue or mimic as a creature with perception, it making some type of action, or otherwise drawing your attention before deathwatch would work on it. And now it's come up again in the example of the caster wanting to check if things are a viable target by casting the spell in advance of actually knowing.
So by that logic still, magic missile shouldn't be able to be cast on a mimic before you KNOW it's a mimic? And on that same idea, illusions or other things that may or may not be a legal target? I guess it boils down to is spell casting targeting based on what things actually are and not perception, or perception, regardless of what the reality is?
simple really
Illusion school
Illusions & interactions
If a caster has failed to notice (or failed the save) for an illusion he casts and expends the spell believing it has had the expected effect.
Some illusions are static and need a caster to adjust it on their turn to realistically reflect the effects of attacks on the illusion. It is a dynamic flow. Phantasms will naturally reflect that damage as the target creates/expects that to happen.
and to be clear, an illusion is a spell effect and not an object in many cases. It may trick the target into thinking it is targateable etc but that is an intentional part of the illusion's spell effect.
A caster CAN target a glass potion vial with Magic Missile:K1 - it just won't do any damage to the object. (this was a *thing* in previous editions where PCs would MagMssl locks and break them rather than Pick the Lock thus some conditions were added to the spell in later editions).
Generally if a PC wants to do something that will clearly fail, as a GM you can offer a verbal caution and ask what they expect to happen (try to uncover the misconception). If the player insists then you can let them proceed to act with no overall effect. It is better than having a rules discussion mid-game. Then later you can discuss it and work things out. Explain how you see RAW. Ask them how they interpret it.
Azothath wrote: simple really
Illusion school
Illusions & interactions
If a caster has failed to notice (or failed the save) for an illusion he casts and expends the spell believing it has had the expected effect.
Some illusions are static and need a caster to adjust it on their turn to realistically reflect the effects of attacks on the illusion. It is a dynamic flow. Phantasms will naturally reflect that damage as the target creates/expects that to happen.
That's good to know for the case of illusions, but what about the main example presented? A construct creature like say a graven guardian looking like a statue. Can you magic missile it before you know it's a construct creature? I don't think Illusion school rules wouldn't naturally apply to the main question of Casting a creature targeted spell on something that you don't know yet is actually a creature.
But as said, the info you provided does answer the part of it asking about illusory critters, so thank you kindly!
Quote: Magic Rules
Illusion
Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened.
Subschools
Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. It is not a personalized mental impression. Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the figment produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like (or copy another sense exactly unless you have experienced it).
Because figments and glamers are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding foes, but useless for attacking them directly.
A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.
Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.
Pattern: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.
Phantasm: a phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression, all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see. Third parties viewing or studying the scene don’t notice the phantasm. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells.
Shadow: A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. a character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
Quote: Illusions
Disbelief and Interaction: All three of the subschools above tend to have saving throw lines that say “Will disbelief,” but they differ in how those saving throws apply.
Phantasms directly assail a creature’s mind, so the creature automatically and immediately receives a saving throw to disbelieve a phantasm. Figments and glamers, however, have the more difficult-to-adjudicate rule that creatures receive a saving throw to disbelieve only if they “interact” with the illusion.
But what does it mean to interact with an illusion? It can’t just mean looking at the illusion, as otherwise there would be no need to make the distinction, but drawing the line can be a bit tricky. Fortunately, the rules can help to define that difference. A creature that spends a move action to carefully study an illusion receives a Will saving throw to disbelieve that illusion, so that is a good benchmark from which to work.
Using that as a basis, interacting generally means spending a move action, standard action, or greater on a character’s part. For example, if there were a major image of an ogre, a character who tried to attack the ogre would receive a saving throw to disbelieve, as would a character who spent 1 minute attempting a Diplomacy check on the ogre. A character who just traded witty banter with the ogre as a free action would not, nor would a character who simply cast spells on herself or her allies and never directly confronted the illusory ogre. For a glamer, interacting generally works the same as for a figment, except that the interaction must be limited to something the glamer affects. For instance, grabbing a creature’s ear would be an interaction for a human using disguise self to appear as an elf, but not for someone using a glamer to change his hair color. Similarly, visually studying someone would not grant a save against a glamer that purely changed her voice.
Quote: Major Image
School illusion (figment); Level bard 3, magus 3, medium 3, mesmerist 3, occultist 3, psychic 3, sorcerer/wizard 3; Subdomain imagination 3; Mystery whimsy 4
EFFECT
Duration Concentration +3 rounds
DESCRIPTION
This spell functions like silent image, except that sound, smell, and thermal illusions are included in the spell effect. While concentrating, you can move the image within the range.
The image disappears when struck by an opponent unless you cause the illusion to react appropriately.
In the case of your Illusion of a Dragon, the second you attack it then you have "interacted" with it, so you should receive a Will Save to disbelieve it's actually real or not. Whether Magic Missile qualifies as an "attack that would interact" with it could be up for debate, but I would say that it is indeed an attack that would qualify for you to have "interacted" with it and you would receive a Will Save. Most illusions will be destroyed immediately if they take any damage though.
As far as the Mimic example, if you didn't know it was a Mimic and you cast Magic Missile on it, it would definitely work. If it wasn't a Mimic and it was an actual object, the spell would fizzle.
I think I found a more concise way to phrase my question, though part of it has already been answered. So let me try to phrase it this way....
You have a wizard who goes into a room with 2 mimics, 2 treasure chests, and 1 illusion of a mimic. The First mimic passed it's disguise check, the second one failed. The Wizard has it on good faith by a trusted ally that 1 treasure chest is actually a mimic(but it's not) and one chest is just a chest. Lastly, the illusion mimic is clearly a mimic. This sets up the following when he tries to use the 5 missiles of magic missile on the 5 chests....
1: A mimic that he doesn't know is a creature, but IS a valid target.
2: A mimic that he KNOWS is a mimic, and IS a valid target.
3: A treasure chest he 'KNOWS' is a mimic, but isn't a valid target.
4: A treasure chest that he knows is a chest, and isn't a valid target.
5: The illusion that technically isn't a viable target, but he thinks is.
When he casts the magic missile, what happens to each missile? Do they strike regardless of what he perceives, or because of what he perceives to be creatures?
Thanks to the above, I think we can scratch #5 off though.
Ryze Kuja wrote: Quote: Magic Rules
Illusion
Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened.
Subschools
Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. It is not a personalized mental impression. Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the figment produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like (or copy another sense exactly unless you have experienced it).
Because figments and glamers are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding foes, but useless for attacking them directly.
A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.
Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.
Pattern: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.
Phantasm: a phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression, all in their heads
... Ah, thank you! So it seems that it's more based on reality then perception then? Though the consequence of spamming it to find hidden constructs/mimics etc is losing the spell as if it was cast should prevent people from abusing the targeting rules.
Kiba Kurokage wrote:
1: A mimic that he doesn't know is a creature, but IS a valid target.
2: A mimic that he KNOWS is a mimic, and IS a valid target.
3: A treasure chest he 'KNOWS' is a mimic, but isn't a valid target.
4: A treasure chest that he knows is a chest, and isn't a valid target.
5: The illusion that technically isn't a viable target, but he thinks is.
When he casts the magic missile, what happens to each missile? Do they strike regardless of what he perceives, or because of what he perceives to be creatures?
1: The Magic Missile strikes the target.
2: The Magic Missile strikes the target.
3: The Magic Missile fizzles, because it is not a creature.
4: The Magic Missile fizzles, because it is not a creature.
5: The Magic Missile fizzles, because it is not a creature. I would probably describe it as the Magic Missile flies errantly through the creature and strikes nothing, something seems off about this creature, make a Will Save.
Ryze Kuja wrote: Kiba Kurokage wrote:
1: A mimic that he doesn't know is a creature, but IS a valid target.
2: A mimic that he KNOWS is a mimic, and IS a valid target.
3: A treasure chest he 'KNOWS' is a mimic, but isn't a valid target.
4: A treasure chest that he knows is a chest, and isn't a valid target.
5: The illusion that technically isn't a viable target, but he thinks is.
When he casts the magic missile, what happens to each missile? Do they strike regardless of what he perceives, or because of what he perceives to be creatures?
1: The Magic Missile strikes the target.
2: The Magic Missile strikes the target.
3: The Magic Missile fizzles, because it is not a creature.
4: The Magic Missile fizzles, because it is not a creature.
5: The Magic Missile fizzles, because it is not a creature. I would probably describe it as the Magic Missile flies errantly through the creature and strikes nothing, something seems off about this creature, make a Will Save. Thank you kindly! That makes a lot of sense, but I couldn't find the rules or an FAQ about it.
"fizzles" isn't the best of descriptions...
I mean, I get the idea though, a spell slot is expended as if you cast the spell, but it doesn't actually activate or do anything.
I'm pretty sure a fireball targeting an illusion could cause some collateral damage to creatures inadvertently caught in its area of effect.
Fireball isn't a targeted spell though, it's an aoe effect you can put anywhere you want regardless of whether there are targets in the area or not.
Targeted spells vs. Invalid Targets will fizzle, fail, falter, be cast with no effect, w/e you want to call it.
Quote: Spell Failure
If you ever try to cast a spell in conditions where the characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform, the casting fails and the spell is wasted.
Spells also fail if your concentration is broken and might fail if you’re wearing armor while casting a spell with somatic components.
This doesn't feel like the right answer. I think magic missile should attack all the targets. Whether or not it is effective should be determined by what the target is.
The chests would have hardness (lets say wood) so when attacked by magic missile, all damage (1d4+1) should be blocked by hardness 5. The mimics don't have hardness or damage reduction so they should take the full damage from magic missile. The illusion is an illusion so nothing is there, so the magic missile should shoot through it as though it wasn't there.
OmniMage wrote: This doesn't feel like the right answer. I think magic missile should attack all the targets. Whether or not it is effective should be determined by what the target is.
The chests would have hardness (lets say wood) so when attacked by magic missile, all damage (1d4+1) should be blocked by hardness 5. The mimics don't have hardness or damage reduction so they should take the full damage from magic missile. The illusion is an illusion so nothing is there, so the magic missile should shoot through it as though it wasn't there.
The target for Magic Missile specifically says creatures, so objects cannot be affected. Tbh, I could see a house rule allowing it to work though. I don't think that would be game-breaking or unbalanced.
Quote: Magic Missile
School evocation [force]; Level bloodrager 1, magus 1, psychic 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage.
The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat, so long as it has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can’t be singled out. Objects are not damaged by the spell.
For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional missile – two at 3rd level, three at 5th, four at 7th, and the maximum of five missiles at 9th level or higher. If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures. A single missile can strike only one creature. You must designate targets before you check for spell resistance or roll damage.
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This is one of those “don’t make it harder than it needs to be” situations.
As Ryze said, the missiles damage the creatures that are valid targets, fail to leave your hand for the ones targeting items, and cause a will save for the illusion (which will either reveal it to be an illusion or look like it does damage. It’s the simplest solution that doesn’t result in rules-argument-lock.
As many have stated… the magic missiles would fail to damage the invalid targets, would work as expected on any creatures pretending to be objects, and would trigger a will save to disbelieve on the illusion with their perceived result based on the result of said save.
That said… your player was actually correct in their understanding of how deathwatch works with regards to creatures that pretend to be objects such as mimics or constructs. Deathwatch would in fact alert them to the presence of a living creature in the case of a mimic, undead creature in the case of any undead pretending to be a corpse, or something neither alive nor dead for that construct pretending to be a statue. The spell doesn’t leave room for interpretation, it does precisely what it says it does. If you want enemies hidden from magical detection, simply have them warded with nondetection…
Chell Raighn wrote:
That said… your player was actually correct in their understanding of how deathwatch works with regards to creatures that pretend to be objects such as mimics or constructs. Deathwatch would in fact alert them to the presence of a living creature in the case of a mimic, undead creature in the case of any undead pretending to be a corpse, or something neither alive nor dead for that construct pretending to be a statue. The spell doesn’t leave room for interpretation, it does precisely what it says it does. If you want enemies hidden from magical detection, simply have them warded with nondetection…
I don't know how this plays into it, cause D20PFSRD and all, but there is NOW a section under deathwatch about it.
"Does deathwatch detect things you can’t see?
The following information was provided by Michael Brock, who previously served as Pathfinder Society’s campaign coordinator. He is not a developer, but this information likely applies to PFS organized play:
“It is intended to be used only on creatures already perceived. You have to be able to see the creature to instantly know whether each creature within the area is dead, fragile (alive and wounded, with 3 or fewer hit points left), fighting off death (alive with 4 or more hit points), healthy, undead, or neither alive nor dead (such as a construct). It doesn’t magically advise or let you see or know there is an invisible creature or a very stealthy creature in the area and what the health and condition of that creature is.”
[Source] http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p1t1?DeathwatchNo-Ambushes-Pinpoint-all-Invisi ble#8
"
So, in this case, it would let you see mimics and statue-constructs, but not invisible/hiding creatures. Which kinda works in the way that it still detects stuff in general in it's area, but doesn't detect things that you don't perceive... Which I feel is a good middle ground.
The Org Play lead and other Paizo staff along with the dedicated volunteers tried to make things clearer for Org Play GMs and players. It is informative to read their decisions. Often it took YEARS to get a decision. The best way is to read the 3 main documents; the Guide, Additional Resources, and then Campaign Clarifications. Sometimes things showed up in their blog.
You do have to take into account the Org Play format.
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