The synthesist specifies that "He counts both as his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist." This was before the unchained summoner was introduced and, by extension, before eidolon subtypes were introduced. My question is whether an UnSummoner synthesist can be targeted by effects that only work on certain subtypes i.e. angel, demon, devil etc. Furthermore, would the synthesist be able to qualify for feats and such that have subtype requirements? For example:
"Demonic Possession
Prerequisites: Demon or half-demon, Cha 21, Wis 17
Benefit: You gain the ability to use magic jar as a spell-like ability once per day."
I appreciate any help you can give.
|
The synthesist specifies that "He counts both as his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist." This was before the unchained summoner was introduced and, by extension, before eidolon subtypes were introduced. My question is whether an UnSummoner synthesist can be targeted by effects that only work on certain subtypes i.e. angel, demon, devil etc. Furthermore, would the synthesist be able to qualify for feats and such that have subtype requirements? For example:
"Demonic Possession
Prerequisites: Demon or half-demon, Cha 21, Wis 17Benefit: You gain the ability to use magic jar as a spell-like ability once per day."
I appreciate any help you can give.
I don't think they every gave much of a clarification on combining 'chained' archetypes with unchained classes beyond 'Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace.'
I saw one post stating that PFS considered any archetype that altered the eidolon to be incompatible with the unchained summoner, but I don't know if this is correct or not (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tvnj?Unchained-Summoner-and-Summoner-Archetyp es#4).
In any case, it's probably something your GM will have to decide.
assuming the unchained summoner CAN take that archtype (a lot of people out right think only changed archtypes brought here are available for him), the text you yourself brought say:
" whichever is worse for the synthesist".
this mean that if unchained summoner can take the synth archtype then.
if the effects can only effect one of his races and:
- are bad for him (debuffs etc) he can be targeted
- if they are good for him (buffs etc) then he is not an allowed target.
and he can only apply for feats that are open for both his original race and the eidolon he take's form of.
as it stand, that specific feat is open for any demon or half demon without a synth archtype. having the synth archtype hold him back not give him an edge and can only be applied for by demon or half demon unchained summoners who have a demon eidolon synth suit. a demon with a bunny suit (and any other non demon suit) is out of the specs, the same as any non demon\half demon with a demon suit.
|
While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor. He counts both as his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist.
You are fused when you gain a level?
Advancing Your Character
A character advances in level as soon as he earns enough experience points to do so—typically, this occurs at the end of a game session, when your GM hands out that session’s experience point awards....
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level’s class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats.
As I read it, you aren't, as you aren't benefitting from any temporary effect (your eidolon disappears when you sleep).
So you haven't your eidolon type or subtype when you are increasing your level and getting new feats.Then there is the limitation the summoner count as an outsider for effects. A feat isn't an effect.
Pathfinder lacks a "game dictionary", but effects are the (sigh) effects of feats, spells, special abilities, and class features, not the feats, spells, special abilities, and class features.
You are fused when you gain a level? [...] As I read it, you aren't, as you aren't benefitting from any temporary effect (your eidolon disappears when you sleep).
You level up the moment you get enough XP (assumign the GM doesn't use milestone leveling, of course). It's up to the GM when to award XP, but it's usually doen either right away (i.e. right after combat), or (as the book says) at the end of a game session.
Immediate XP means the Summoner is extremely likely to be fused, and I think it's normal to end a session at the evening or durign a day, which gives end-of-session-levelling a high chance to catch the Summoenr fused, too.
Of course, for the topic at hand, that irrelevant, because prerequisites are not effects. Nothing in the Synthesist description makes the Summoner count as an Outsider (or a subtype) for prereqs.
RAW, there is nothing in the text to suggest the synthesist has a subtype. But unchained isn’t really meant for that kind of thinking. Unchained is just suggested house rules, and as such the GM is expected to tweak things to allow them to blend with existing rules. If synthesist had been created after unchained, I think it would have included subtype. So the unchained synthesist should probably have the subtype too.
So the unchained synthesist should probably have the subtype too.
Yes, but following the same rules as the creature type. It makes no sense for the Synthesist to count as an e.g. demon for things he doesn't count as an outsider for.
I thank everyone that posted and after reading through the comments it appears that a reasonable conclusion is that, by RAW, the Synthesist doesn't gain the UnEidolon's subtype for "effects that relate to type." That being said, it seems like one could make a reasonable argument to say that they do; at the very least for negative effects. However, even if that is the case, the Synthesist still doesn't qualify as a subtype for the purposes of meeting prerequisites.
As always though, it's up the GM.
He counts both as his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist.
I feel people are misreading that rule. You count as both. If it were meant to shut you out of things like that it would just say “or” instead of “both/and”.
The part about “whichever is worse” is talking about when there are two sets of effects for both of your types.
|
|
You are fused when you gain a level? [...] As I read it, you aren't, as you aren't benefitting from any temporary effect (your eidolon disappears when you sleep).You level up the moment you get enough XP (assumign the GM doesn't use milestone leveling, of course). It's up to the GM when to award XP, but it's usually doen either right away (i.e. right after combat), or (as the book says) at the end of a game session.
Immediate XP means the Summoner is extremely likely to be fused, and I think it's normal to end a session at the evening or durign a day, which gives end-of-session-levelling a high chance to catch the Summoenr fused, too.
Of course, for the topic at hand, that irrelevant, because prerequisites are not effects. Nothing in the Synthesist description makes the Summoner count as an Outsider (or a subtype) for prereqs.
So someone with Bull Strength active can take Power attack, even if they won't qualify without the spell?
AFAIK, it doesn't work that way. The prerequisites require a permanent effect, like belts after 24 hours of use.Wearing the Eidolon is temporary, not permanent.
So someone with Bull Strength active can take Power attack, even if they won't qualify without the spell?
RAW yes - all the rules say is "Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat." (CRB pg. 112) The rules go on explaining what happens when you lose a prereq, so that's covered, but no mention of temporary effects not counting.
The prerequisites require a permanent effect, like belts after 24 hours of use.
- Says which rule? The feat rules don't contain the word "permanent" or "temporary", and the rules on temporary and permanent ability score bonuses don't contain the words "prerequisite" or "qualify".
It's often assumed to not work with temporary ability score bonuses based on the rules on permanent ability score bonuses saying "Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours." (CRB pg. 555), but careful reading shows that nothing is stated to not be affected by a temporary ability score bonus. And this FAQ cleared that up anyway, as it says "Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do."
There are dev posts going both ways, so no clear RAI. Personally, I like what I call the "fly skill approach", meaning you qualify if you can reliably fulfill the prereqs every day. This allows Druids to take e.g. Improved Natural Attack, but doesn't allow taking Power Attack because of a potion of Enlarge Person.
The problem is broader than synthesists. Can a druid take the improved natural attack feat
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not sure about the letter of the rules, but I wouldn't let the summoner qualify as having the outsider subtype of his eidolon for the purpose of selecting feats. However, I do believe the summoner (when fused) would count as the outsider subtype for the purposes of negative effects, but not positive ones.
To Melkiador's point above, we now access to the spell fly is sufficient to allow one to put ranks into the fly skill (on a race that does not naturally fly). So there is precedent that temporary things can allow you to qualify.
However, as a GM I'm still not letting the summoner select feats that require specific outsider subtypes.