How good is demoralize?

[Vincent The Dark]

I know that demoralize can be improved with feats like Enforcer, but how useful is demoralize?
Can any creature be demoralized? Are there many creatures that have immunity to fear effects? Which creatures can be demoralized?

Also, are there many creatures that are immune/resistant to non-lethal damage?
Thanks

[Farak, the Most Powerful Mage]

I am Farak, the Most Powerful Mage in ALL Absalom, do not be fooled by that pretender Thorne. The fact that my enemies quake in fear at the mere mention of my name has been key to many of the successes I have brought to the Pathfinder Society.

[Vincent The Dark]

Farak, the Most Powerful Mage wrote:

I am Farak, the Most Powerful Mage in ALL Absalom, do not be fooled by that pretender Thorne. The fact that my enemies quake in fear at the mere mention of my name has been key to many of the successes I have brought to the Pathfinder Society.

Lol, ok... Any input? : (

[Netopalis]

Personally, I don't consider it to be a great ability. There are so many better things you can do on your turn, and it takes a full standard action. Just my 2 cents, though.

[niconorsk]

I've got a character who likes to demoralize in combat. Using the standard action for it is usually not worth it, but if you build for it and get the free action intimidate stuff then its start shining.
For awesome combo on a melee character, look at intimidating prowess+power attack+cornugon smash+cruel weapon. -4 to attack rolls, saves and skill checks, -2 to damage rolls.

[Bearded Ben]

Standard action, until you take Enforcer, Cornugon Smash, or the Torture subdomain, each of which grant conditional free action demoralize checks after hitting people. Another option is the Intimidating Glare rage power, which makes demoralizing foes next to you a move action.

[Farak, the Most Powerful Mage]

Perhaps Farak, the Most Powerful Mage in ALL Absalom was not clear the first time.

I demoralize my foes. I have found this to be a quite effective strategy.

Now, Do not question my prowess again! I may have retired from active duty as a Pathfinder, but I've still got it.
Intimidate: 1d20 + 33 ⇒ (19) + 33 = 52

[Maggiethecat]

It may be a standard action but keep in mind that for every 5 you beat the DC by, the target is demoralized for an extra round. With a roll like Farak's (which isn't all that hard to achieve with the right feats and such) even high-level foes will be shaken for several rounds. Plus, if you are paired with...say...a caster with save or suck spells, it can be a pretty deadly combo. Demoralizing a foe before something like Sleep, Hideous Laughter, Suggestion, etc. can end a fight pretty fast.

[MrSin]

Vermin, Undead, and constructs are the ones of the top of my head who are outright immune to being demoralized. They come up a bit, but you run into a lot of outsiders, aberrations, and humanoids who definitely are not immune to it.

Sword of Mercy(trait) + Enforcer is a good example of a free demoralize at the start of the game. The creatures immune to nonlethal are immune to being demoralized anyway. Its been useful before, -2 to nearly everything! Can be used with a cruelty weapon for a -4 to everything. You also have the chance to take people alive when you really need it.

[Ferious Thune]

This is not in PFS, but my Halfling Inquisitor is fond of Blistering Invective* as a way to demoralize a group. Even taking the -4 penalty for being smaller than most targets, he still routinely demoralizes rooms full of Ogres and Stone Giants (often setting them on fire in the process). I don't know if it's the most effective strategy, but it sure is fun.

*I often refer to Blistering Invective as one of the most complicated spells in the game, since it requires knowledge of the demoralize/intimidate rules, the Shaken rules, lets you demoralize in an area effect, does a 1d10 fire damage with no save to anyone within 30 feet who was demoralized, does have a save (Reflex) or it sets targets on fire which requires knowledge of the fire rules, is language dependent, and even spell resistance can only negate part of the effect (the fire damage, but not the demoralize). I don't think I've ever cast it without it having to be looked up to clarify, which sadly means I only break it out when I just can't resist the temptation.

[KingmanHighborn]

That right there ^ Blistering Invective is amazing.

If your playing an Inquisitor with it, along with a Barbarian with Initimadating Glare and Terrifying Howl it is freakin' awesome combo to send enemies packing.

[Matt2VK]

There is a trait that allows intimidate for vermin.

If you are a melee, within 5-10', type character, there can be times you just won't be able to close with your target. Having a ranged demoralize can come in very handy in these situations.

[Benrislove]

why sorcerer no can get spell? :(

* Broken English intentional to express amazement and sadness at the same time.

[Mike Lindner]

Ferious Thune wrote:

This is not in PFS, but my Halfling Inquisitor is fond of Blistering Invective* as a way to demoralize a group. Even taking the -4 penalty for being smaller than most targets, he still routinely demoralizes rooms full of Ogres and Stone Giants (often setting them on fire in the process). I don't know if it's the most effective strategy, but it sure is fun.

*I often refer to Blistering Invective as one of the most complicated spells in the game, since it requires knowledge of the demoralize/intimidate rules, the Shaken rules, lets you demoralize in an area effect, does a 1d10 fire damage with no save to anyone within 30 feet who was demoralized, does have a save (Reflex) or it sets targets on fire which requires knowledge of the fire rules, is language dependent, and even spell resistance can only negate part of the effect (the fire damage, but not the demoralize). I don't think I've ever cast it without it having to be looked up to clarify, which sadly means I only break it out when I just can't resist the temptation.

Take the taunt feat and say goodbye to the -4 for being smaller, plus you can do it with Bluff instead of Intimidate.

[SCPRedMage]

Take one level of Rogue with the Thug archetype, and whenever you successfully use Intimidate to demoralize, you increase the duration by one round.

More importantly, if you make them shaken for four or more rounds from this, you can instead make them FRIGHTENED for 1 round. Since Enforcer sets the duration equal to the nonlethal damage you dealt, you can EASILY pop that four round mark, meaning you can hit an enemy ONCE and force them to run away.

[Malag]

Demoralized grants Shaken condition. Against single foe, it's a good debuff and repeatable one. It also improves chances of NPC failing his Saving Throws against my clerics spells.

[Drogos]

I've made it a part of my build on my Rage Prophet. It's been useful to negate the penalty while raging to AC vs the BBEG (via Intimidating Glare), and also to drop their saves for the casters in the party. I'll typically lead with Dazzling Display right off the bat in large encounters of mooks, because penalizing them is easy and keeps them a non threat. There is very few things aside from undead/oozes/vermin it doesn't affect and it's a debuff that can be done through various means. The big advantage of it comes in when you can do it as less than a standard or combined with another standard you were going to do anyways, though the Dazzling Display as a standard action (as a full round it kind of hurts) is worthwhile since you are likely to hit all the possible targets with it.

[Zauron13]

Order of the Cockatrice. Dazzling dislpay as a standard action.

That alone is sweet. I have a Samurai of the Cockatrice with a +13 at 3rd level, scare errybody.

I think it is worth it, but to each their own.

[nosig]

Ferious Thune wrote:

This is not in PFS, but my Halfling Inquisitor is fond of Blistering Invective* as a way to demoralize a group. Even taking the -4 penalty for being smaller than most targets, he still routinely demoralizes rooms full of Ogres and Stone Giants (often setting them on fire in the process). I don't know if it's the most effective strategy, but it sure is fun.

*I often refer to Blistering Invective as one of the most complicated spells in the game, since it requires knowledge of the demoralize/intimidate rules, the Shaken rules, lets you demoralize in an area effect, does a 1d10 fire damage with no save to anyone within 30 feet who was demoralized, does have a save (Reflex) or it sets targets on fire which requires knowledge of the fire rules, is language dependent, and even spell resistance can only negate part of the effect (the fire damage, but not the demoralize). I don't think I've ever cast it without it having to be looked up to clarify, which sadly means I only break it out when I just can't resist the temptation.

I have an Alchemist who will regularly give out an Infusion of blistering invective. When I sit at a PFS table I ask the other players - "anyone here have a great intimidate? you? want to be able to cast this spell?" and I hand them a write-up for the spell.

It's a great way to pick enemies out of a crowd... down know who's the bad guys? drink this and swear... the ones that "light up" don't like you!

[Charlie Bell]

tl;dr Good if you build for it, not so much if you don't.

[Dylos]

Well, if you have shatter defenses, and happen to be a rogue, demoralize is great, since it makes shaken enemies flat footed.

Let's say you have a character with the following feats, Bludgeoner, Enforcer, Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses, Sap Adept, and Sap Master with these feats you are at least a level 9 rogue, so vs a shaken foe, you would deal 10d6+10 extra damage on a nonlethal sneak attack, for an average of 45 extra damage, in addition to the damage of your weapon, after such an attack, the target would likely be shaken for the rest of the encounter, if you have good intimidate.

[Sarta]

As the player of a Bard "enchanter", it's really good. By leading with Blistering invective, I can give the shaken condition to all opponents within 30'. That subtracts 2 from all saving throws, which is incredible when trying to stick "save or suck" spells.

It's basically the equivalent of both spell focus and greater spell focus.

Combine it with a Ghast Wretch Flask and you are really in business.

[Ferious Thune]

Mike Lindner wrote:

Take the taunt feat and say goodbye to the -4 for being smaller, plus you can do it with Bluff instead of Intimidate.

It's been suggested to me before, and it's probably more optimal for most halfling builds. I decided it didn't fit the character concept. He's more of a hard boiled halfling. Plus, between stern gaze and the torture inquisition, even with the -4, his intimidate is outpacing his bluff. Though with him also being a Heretic (wis to bluff and stealth) it's close, and bluff would have been better at lower levels. .

[Fromper]

Now imagine a debuff focused bard with Blistering Invective.

I've got a gnome prankster bard with Skill Focus: Perform (Comedy) and the Collector trait for another +2 on Perform (Comedy). With Versatile Performance, I use that perform skill for intimidate, bluff, and day job rolls. Because it's a perform check instead of an intimidate check, I don't have the -4 for intimidating something larger than me.

I'm at +14 at level 2, and it'll get really insane by the time I hit level 4 or 5, which I can boost my charisma from 19 to 20 and afford a headband for extra charisma and a circlet of persuasion.

Once they're shaken, they get a -2 to saves. So even doing single target stuff right now at level 2, I can follow it up with or the prankster archetype's mocking bardic performance, which gives another -2 on their hit rolls, and it stacks. So it takes two rounds, but giving a BBEG -4 on their hit rolls can be worth it, and makes it easier for my friendly front liners to knock down the bad guy. Or I can follow it up with Hideous Laughter once they're shaken to knock them out of the fight altogether.

[WalterGM]

It is worth pointing out that it is a a good option for low level CHA based characters in fights if they want to conserve spells or abilities as well. It's a lot more useful than firing a ray of frost into melee, or casting guidance on the archer.

[thistledown]

Egwh! We'd got one of these in our local group. Very annoying to deal with. Typically, he'll wait till the enemy is in 30 feet, then drop his dazzeling display. Combines that with a level of Thug, so everyone in 30 ft spends the next round running away. Then spends the next round running back. Then he frightens them again, and they run away again. Repeat until the rest of the party takes the baddies down. And he's got enough mods that it's pratty much an auto success vs everyone.

[Thomas Long 175]

Its pretty epic with the right builds. I built a scarred rager with a level of thug and used the dazzling display feat.

You can actually get your intimidate high enough that you're basically panicking all of your enemies each round, not just making them shaken.

[Alexander Augunas]

My character is a sword saint (samurai) / lore warden (fighter) focused on demoralized and feinting. (Charisma fighting for the win!) There have been several encounters where our party's only survived because of timely misses thanks to the shaken condition.

Its not very apparent at first, but there is TONS of support for demoralizing your foes out there. For example:

There is a feat called Shatter Defense. Whenever you strike someone who is stunned or suffering from a fear effect, that creature is denied its Dexterity bonus against all of your attacks until your next turn. If you can get a multiple round demoralize going, that could literally be every around for 3+ rounds.

Building on Shatter Defenses, there is a feat called Deadly Stroke that is next in its feat chain. Go look it up; its a Core Rulebook feat and its positively disgusting.

Knowing all that, grab the Enforcer feat. Whenever you deal non-lethal damage to an enemy, you make a demoralize check and if you succeed, your foe is demoralized for a number of rounds equal to the damage done. Got a good Strength on you? You're easily looking at 3–4 rounds without needing the normal +15 DC that you would require. Better still, grab a merciful weapon. No penalty on attack rolls and an extra 1d6 of nonlethal damage, which translates into an extra 1d6 rounds of demoralize and an extra 1d6 rounds of Deadly Stroke.

Now, if we're being even more ridiculous, I nabbed up a few levels in Samurai for the Order of the Cockatrice. Your 2nd level Order Ability is called Braggart, which nets you a free copy of Dazzling Display (an okay feat) which you can use as a standard action instead of a full-round action (awesome) without needing to be wielding a weapon (nifty) and you get a +2 bonus to attack foes who are demoralized (ridiculous).

Yes. It is quite possible to be disgustingly evil with the demoralize action.

[blackbloodtroll]

If a creature is immune to fear conditions, then they are immune to the shaken condition caused by Demoralize, but not actually immune to demoralize.

Creatures immune to Morale effects are immune to demoralize, in it's entirety.

These are all important to remember, as some abilities allow you to apply different conditions with demoralize that are not fear conditions.

[Alexander Augunas]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

These are all important to remember, as some abilities allow you to apply different conditions with demoralize that are not fear conditions.

Really? I didn't know that. Could you give an example?

[blackbloodtroll]

Alexander Augunas wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

These are all important to remember, as some abilities allow you to apply different conditions with demoralize that are not fear conditions.

Really? I didn't know that. Could you give an example?

Ancestral Scorn feat.

[lantzkev]

Don't forget you can also go the performance combat route, takes a few more feats though, but you can AE demoralize em rather than just who you hit.

[Alexander Augunas]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Alexander Augunas wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

These are all important to remember, as some abilities allow you to apply different conditions with demoralize that are not fear conditions.

Really? I didn't know that. Could you give an example?

Ancestral Scorn feat.

Wow. Didn't even notice that one! Wish there was something similar for non-tieflings!

As an aside, its pretty crazy how many race-specific options there are for demorlaize. Hobgoblins, orcs, ifrits, gnomes, small characters, and now apparently tieflings have one too.

[Gobo Horde]

Wow. This is pretty intresting stuff. Its making me think of a hobgoblin fell rider and I quite like the idea. +4 racial to intimidate, +1/2 level to intimidate, additional +1/2 level, free intimidate when you charge/trample, 60 ft aoe debuff against fear effects, dazzling display as a standard at second level and at 14th level you get the mooks b gone ability. Frightened for 14 rounds... to top it off you can even intimidate your allies :D
Now just ask your gm to let it stack with beast rider and your set.
I like this idea a lot!

[Oterisk]

I just like it for a first level sorcerer. Just one rank in it gives you a better shot of landing a debuff on an enemy than most of your cantrips. I actually refer to it as a cantrip most of the time. Also, it affects more things than Daze does, so it gives me something to do when I am conserving spell levels before I get high enough that it doesn't matter as much anymore.

[Ausk Stormbrow]

Farak, the Most Powerful Mage wrote:

Perhaps Farak, the Most Powerful Mage in ALL Absalom was not clear the first time.

I demoralize my foes. I have found this to be a quite effective strategy.

Now, Do not question my prowess again! I may have retired from active duty as a Pathfinder, but I've still got it.
Intimidate: 1d20+33

I remember when I was just that intimidating... I think I was four or five.

[Glutton]

This is a good spell for intimidate builds. Swift action AOE intimidate is handy.

[STR Ranger]

The Destruction (Torture) Subdomain power is disgustingly good. Are there any deities besides the goblin one who grant it.
Seems great for an Inquisitor.

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, there is also Blistering Invective, Instrument of Agony, and Persuasive Goad.