Dimension Door and Spectral hand interaction.


Rules Questions


Hello!

How would Dimension Door spell interact with Spectral hand spell?

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dimension-door/

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/spectral-hand/

Is it possible for a wizard to cast dimensional door while the spectral hand is currently working and "touch" his teammate with it that is in spectral's hand range far away from wizard? Would that work? Would both wizard and teammate be teleported? Or Its impossible since Dimension door requires direct touch contact?


RAW, the touch from a spectral hand qualifies for the touch for dimension door. The dimension door spell teleports you and those you touch, to a location. So yes, you can tag yourself and a teammate across the battle field to both teleport to a new spot.


What's wild is when you use your familiar to deliver the touch. Do you teleport or does your familiar? Both?


Melkiador wrote:
What's wild is when you use your familiar to deliver the touch. Do you teleport or does your familiar? Both?

It would be the familiar, as the spell effect is originating from the familiar instead of you. You are essentially first using share spells onto the familiar to let it be the one actually teleporting when you cast, then it's just touching someone else and unless the chain also includes you, you won't do anything.

Liberty's Edge

Spectral Hand wrote:

A ghostly hand shaped from your life force materializes and moves as you desire, allowing you to deliver low-level, touch range spells at a distance.

...
For as long as the spell lasts, any touch range spell of 4th level or lower that you cast can be delivered by the spectral hand.
Dimension Door wrote:


Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target you and touched objects or other touched willing creatures

Dimension Door isn't a Touch range spell, so it can't be delivered by Spectral Hand.


You have to be touching the other people when you cast Dimension Door in order to bring them with you, but it is not a touch spell that can be delivered by a Familiar or Spectral Hand. Otherwise, I'm going to take Reach Spell and turn Spectral Hand into a Long Range spell and teleport my friends from 400-1200 ft away from me, or even a mile or two away using my Familiar. This would be horrible abuse of the rules and intent of the spell.


Diego Rossi is correct. A touch spell is one that is delivered by touching the target. Dimension door affects you but allows you to bring someone you are touching with you. That is not the same as targeting someone by touching them. The magic of the spell affects you not the person you touch. They are moved with you as a side effect. If the spell allowed you to teleport someone you touched without going, that would be a different story.


there are different circumstances between the two spells but generally Spectral Hand just gives touch spells a range (see last line of post). The effects/consequences of Dim Door can change the line of sight(LoS) and LoE for various spells as Spectral Hand has a good duration.
Spectral Hand:N2 "Creates disembodied glowing hand to deliver touch attacks." <-- that has a different meaning than "touching" when "sharing spells".
"any touch range spell of 4th level or lower that you cast can be delivered by the spectral hand." The term touch range spell has been used several times. Honestly it's a bit confusing as they do not mean a ranged touch spell(as that would be redundant) but rather a touch spell or touch attack that now has range. This is like Reach Spell Metamagic.
"After it delivers a spell, or if it goes beyond the spell range or goes out of your sight, the hand returns to you and hovers." so it is only active delivering a touch during/right after casting of a spell. This is where moving can cause issues with Cover/Concealment & LoS to a unmoving target (not their turn).
Dim Door:C3. comment: IMO should be "Target:Personal and/or other touched willing creatures". Target "personal" excludes other targets thus "you &..." became the (inconsistently used) wording.

How touch attack and touching differ
Std Actn: Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touching as in Teleport:C5. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you. As with all spells where the range is personal and the target is you, you need not make a saving throw, nor is spell resistance applicable to you. Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and spell resistance. It's not unusual in DnD & thus PF1 to have to go to a classic spell description for insight on how something works.
CRB FAQ on touching allies touching foes is usually a standard action precluded in a Full Attack. The first part of the question applies here as it is just a statement of RAW. It's amusing that you can natural attack/UnarmStrk WITH your touch spell all your adjacent allies on your turn for free, only proving treachery does pay!

so you could touch a friend with Dim Door using spectral hand but only he would be the spell target (the caster does not gain the spell effect). This is due to the "or" in the last line of Touch Spells in Combat.


As Diego Rossi pointed out dimension door has a range of long and a target of you and touched object or other touched willing creatures. Dimension door does not allow you to teleport someone else unless you are also teleporting. Teleport has a range of personal and touch so it is a touch spell. It also has target you and touched object or other touched willing creatures. The word or and the word and are significant and define how the spells work.

The rules on touch spells in combat are irrelevant because dimension door is not a touch spell.


Azothath wrote:
...

I've edited the copy as I got distracted and pulled my view into RAW. It's clear I was trying to explain how Touch and touching are used differently...then I made a left turn.

I also went back and read the changes of the spell through the various versions... always interesting.
=====
there are different circumstances between the two spells but generally Spectral Hand just delivers touch spells at a range. The effects/consequences of Dim Door can change the line of sight(LoS) and LoE for various spells as Spectral Hand has a good duration.
Spectral Hand:N2 "Creates disembodied glowing hand to deliver touch attacks." <-- that has a different meaning than "touching" when "sharing spells".
"any touch range spell of 4th level or lower that you cast can be delivered by the spectral hand." The term touch range spell has been used several times. Honestly it's a bit confusing as they do not mean a ranged touch spell(as that would be redundant) but rather a spell with the word touch in the Range description (aka a touch spell or touch attack). The effect is similar to Reach Spell Metamagic.
"After it delivers a spell, or if it goes beyond the spell range or goes out of your sight, the hand returns to you and hovers." so it is only active delivering a touch during/right after casting of a spell. This is where moving can cause issues with Cover/Concealment & LoS to a unmoving target (not their turn).
Dim Door:C3.

How touch attack and touching differ

Std Actn: Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll. The "or" in the last line is important as it excludes delivering the spell to more than 1 target for that "touch".

Touching as in Teleport:C5. Note Range: ... & touch, and All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you. As with all spells where the range is personal and the target is you, you need not make a saving throw, nor is spell resistance applicable to you. Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and spell resistance. It's not unusual in DnD & thus PF1 to have to go to a classic spell description for insight on how something works.
So touching is different than having a Range: touch.
CRB FAQ on touching allies touching foes is usually a standard action precluded in a Full Attack. The first part of the question applies here as it is just a statement of RAW but it shows that a touch attack and "touching" are different things.

so, Dimension Door does not have a Range: touch and is not a touch spell. That means Spectral Hand can not work on it.

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