"Smokeside exists within a permanent null-magic bubble!"
We have that quote from Impossible Lands, but i can't find anywhere what the hell are the rules for dead magic zones!
Anyone have an idea of how are we suppose to rule this?
Same than Cordell, I don't think there's a need for any ruling, it's a zone where magic just doesn't work.
It can be interesting to put a high level party in such a zone. Even a low level monster would be super strong without Runed Weapons/Armor and with no spells. But it must be properly handled otherwise it can become boring for the spellcasters.
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But it must be properly handled otherwise it can become boring for the spellcasters.I really don't understand how this could not be not just boring but disastrous experience for spellcasters.
That's what I mean: It must be properly handled.
Because no character can fight (but Alchemist :D ) as there are no spells nor weapons (non-magical weapons are not exactly useful past the very first levels). But I think you can make something very interesting: Putting the party in a situation where they can't handle anything through combat and magic is a nice challenge.
Well, Fighters would still be able to fight quite well, just not do as much damage due to lack of runes and such, Barbarians could still Rage, Rangers could still Hunt Prey, Rogues' Sneak Attack wouldn't turn off....
Of course, all Alchemy still works.
Hrm.... would a Thaumaturge's abilities still work? I mean, obviously, their implements wouldn't, as they have the Magical trait, but they could still do Exploit Weakness and Implement's Empowerment.
So, yeah, spell-casters take it in the shorts, but a lot of other classes can still do things.
Well, Fighters would still be able to fight quite well, just not do as much damage due to lack of runes and such, Barbarians could still Rage, Rangers could still Hunt Prey, Rogues' Sneak Attack wouldn't turn off....
Of course, all Alchemy still works.
Hrm.... would a Thaumaturge's abilities still work? I mean, obviously, their implements wouldn't, as they have the Magical trait, but they could still do Exploit Weakness and Implement's Empowerment.
So, yeah, spell-casters take it in the shorts, but a lot of other classes can still do things.
Half of the Barbarians lose their rage inside an antimagic zone.
Anyway, what will be the point if only the characters with added Precision damage keep a valid damage output? If you design such a situation, you will make sure the party has to avoid combat. Or if you want you can put one combat with everyone going for the Rogue, it can be funny, but there's no point making more than one of them.
Oh, believe me, I know.
I'm currently running a game with a Fighter, a Magus, a Summoner, and a Sorcerer. If I was to throw an anti-magic zone at them (they're nowhere near Alkenstar) only the Fighter wouldn't be nerfed into the ground.
But it must be properly handled otherwise it can become boring for the spellcasters.I really don't understand how this could not be not just boring but disastrous experience for spellcasters.
Well, if you absolutely need to use magic for something you just go across the river. Alkenstar has specifically developed nonmagical solutions to handle things like "rampaging mutant giants" in case magic is unavailable to them. That the party doesn't means "adventuring in Alkenstar is difficult and dangerous" which is sort of the point.
The Impossible Lands are the "Gonzo Region" on the map, basically anything you could imagine that would make adventuring exciting and difficult is there somewhere. Alkenstar having a region where "Magic literally doesn't work" is specifically a metanarrative bulwark against being sandwiched between two of the most powerful wizards in history who happen to hate each other- that neither Nex nor Geb could easily annex Alkenstar is why it exists in its current form. If 20th level mythic Wizards don't want to go there, then it's reasonable the PCs shouldn't either.
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I think it would be reasonable to have a non-magic analog for runes in places like Alkenstar. You could fashion the weapons to become more steam-punk like with each weapon damage die added, and runes like Flaming could be flavored as the weapon having an oil coating to ignite it, or a super cooled fluid coating the weapon.
There are nonmagical alternatives to runes.
The dwarf's battleforger feat and the weapon improviser archetype come to mind.
I think the worst part about a null magic zone is that its effects vary so much from party to party and player to player. Each GM would have to make specific adjustments for all combats and give each PC an opportunity to contribute when shackled (or not).
The only official adventure content I could foresee would involve pregens made specifically to tackle one story arc. Even if players were forewarned, I think there'd be pitfalls they wouldn't foresee if they built their own.
I'm reminded a bit of Monk in a bathhouse situations (which yes, did happen in PFS1) where the party has to ditch their more obvious weapons and armor so combat's easier. Add a Monk or most any unarmed combatant and they'll shred those easier encounters. Not that it's always a bathhouse, sometimes it's a formal occasion where Rogues and others with light gear might prosper. Many allow arms & armor as an RPG conceit, but maybe not that Animal Companion a PC's built around.
Really messes with the algebra to include such situations, but excluding them would deprive us of many interesting locations and conundrums. Except yeah, not everybody like a conundrum, especially if unbalanced.
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Half of the Barbarians lose their rage inside an antimagic zone.
Not quite. As a point of clarification, every barbarian retains their base rage regardless of whether they gain magical rage modifiers. For example, a dragon instinct barbarian can choose to use rage, rather than draconic rage. The presence of draconic rage as a class ability does not override or remove the existence of the rage class ability. This might prove useful in situations such as when fighting against a creature immune or resistant to certain types of energy damage.
In an area where magic does not function such a barbarian could not use draconic rage, but would still be able to rely on their base rage ability.
The core of your point remains however: some barbarians are adversely effected more than others. I just wanted to be a bit more precise for those who may have been unaware of this distinction.
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Half of the Barbarians lose their rage inside an antimagic zone.Not quite. As a point of clarification, every barbarian retains their base rage regardless of whether they gain magical rage modifiers. For example, a dragon instinct barbarian can choose to use rage, rather than draconic rage. The presence of draconic rage as a class ability does not override or remove the existence of the rage class ability. This might prove useful in situations such as when fighting against a creature immune or resistant to certain types of energy damage.
In an area where magic does not function such a barbarian could not use draconic rage, but would still be able to rely on their base rage ability.
The core of your point remains however: some barbarians are adversely effected more than others. I just wanted to be a bit more precise for those who may have been unaware of this distinction.
Just remember that 'baseline' rage is just 'You deal 2 additional damage with melee Strikes. This additional damage is halved if your weapon or unarmed attack is agile. You take a –1 penalty to AC.'
Having played in a group with a Gold Dragon Instinct Barbarian occasionally facing 'Immune to Fire' foes, baseline rage kinda sucks...
Magic Dead Zones are one of those things that sound cool but really need to be avoided like the proverbial plague in actual gameplay: As noted by previous posters, its impact will vary by group and character, but it will completely shut down most caster builds to the point that those players might as well just take the night off...
"Antimagic Fields are likely to disproportionately ruin people's days" is basically why the spell is rare. So the GM can prevent a world where people are dropping them willy nilly. But having a permanent AMF in half of one city that is famed for this, that the PCs could get away from by "crossing a river" doesn't seem like a serious problem.
Like what is the specific adventuring problem that the PCs are trying to solve that requires them to be in a dead magic zone. If it's "get in somewhere and retrieve something" that's probably best accomplished without a lot of combat. If it's "find the dangerous thing and take it out" then it feels like "lure it to Skyside" could work. I wouldn't run "keep the bad folks from getting the thing" in a Dead Magic Zone, because in Alkenstar that's better accomplished with "lots of well armed people" not "4 truly exceptional individuals".
It might be fun to run a combat on one of the bridges though, so there's a boundary in the combat map you can cross beyond which magic stops working.
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I disagree with RD on the Rage issue. The Instinct powers do not give you a "may" option but instead directly ADD magical traits TO the base rage and there is no option described to use your rage without those traits being applied which would make the ENTIRE ability magical and therefore nullify the whole Rage action effect in an antimagic zone. If they were worded in such a way that you gain a modified additional version of the Rage Action that would be different but that is not how it is described or mechanically interlinked.
I disagree with RD on the Rage issue. The Instinct powers do not give you a "may" option but instead directly ADD magical traits TO the base rage and there is no option described to use your rage without those traits being applied which would make the ENTIRE ability magical and therefore nullify the whole Rage action effect in an antimagic zone. If they were worded in such a way that you gain a modified additional version of the Rage Action that would be different but that is not how it is described or mechanically interlinked.
“While raging, you can increase the additional damage from Rage from 2 to 4 and change its damage type to match that of your dragon's breath weapon instead of the damage type for your weapon or unarmed attack. If you do this, your Rage action gains the arcane and evocation traits, as well as the trait matching the damage type.”
-CRB pg86Notice the word can in the first line and if in the second sentence. The use of the instinct in Dragon Instinct is optional.
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Aha, I see, I was looking at the Animal instinct and assumed the wording was consistent among all of the Magical based Instincts, should have known better :\
It would appear that Dragon and Spirit DO have an optional choice rather than the hard/fast X that happens with Animal... hmm.
Aha, I see, I was looking at the Animal instinct and assumed the wording was consistent among all of the Magical based Instincts, should have known better :\
That the similiar abilities often have different wordings with slightly different rules implications, is a feature of the game.
It was certainly a design choice, even if many of us would have prefered some more consistency.In this case the differences are meaningful so I'm happy with them.
Animal Barbarian Rage is always magical and they can't do just the base damage.
Dragon Rage is magical if you choose to go with the increased damage over +2.
Fury Rage is not magical and there is no different option to choose.
Giant Rage is not magical - even though some of their size increases are. They get the extra damage with the larger weapon, otherwise it is the base rage damage of +2.
Spirit Rage is magical if you choose to go with the increased damage.
Superstitious Rage is not magical. They get the extra damage against spell casters, but there is eventually some extra damage against all targets anyway.
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Animal Barbarian Rage is always magical and they can't do just the base damage.
Interesting. I've probably made more animal instinct barbarians than any other kind of barbarian, and I've never noticed that before.
Like Themetricsystem, I too thought there was more consistent wording among the various instincts.
Learn something new every day.