If you were to knock a prone character off of the ground, are they still considered prone while off the ground until they take an action to stand up? If they aren't considered prone while mid air, if they touch the ground again without taking an action to remove prone are they immediately prone again?
I would imagine it depends on how they are set down or released... assuming they became airborne via something physically picking them up.
As a big dumb Fighter, I have "scooped up" prone characters and carried them to safety. And I believe there are Animal Companion tricks to move you to safety... so a Roc, or whatever, could probably pick up their prone master. When I was carrying people, I set her down standing up on her own feet... I don't know if a giant bird would take the time to manipulate the position of what it was carrying.
How is the prone person airborne? If being carried from underneath, like being scooped up by a big dumb Fighter, then they are still prone... the arms would be just like the floor/ground... you still would be restricted in movement and would suffer all the same penalties as prone. If being carried from above, like in the talons of a giant bird, you would be prone and pinned... as you are essentially bound by giant bird toes. Telekinesis would require an Acrobatics check or Fly check for you to upright yourself in a weightless environment.
If you were to knock a prone character off of the ground, are they still considered prone while off the ground until they take an action to stand up? If they aren't considered prone while mid air, if they touch the ground again without taking an action to remove prone are they immediately prone again?
I read your question a couple times but I had a little bit of a hard time following.
I'm going to restate your question in the manner I understand it:
If character A took an action that would (at least temporarily) move character B off of the ground and into the air would that character remain prone?
Yes, barring some ability to act in the "middle" of the other characters action (even a readied action would work) I would remind you that from a game timing sequence there is no time between the character being off the ground and falling back to the ground. It's just like if a character used a move action to jump across a chasm. Nothing happens in between (barring special reactions or readied actions) and it's all simply part of the move action used to jump. So being moved off the ground and returning to the ground is all part of the action that character A takes.
If the character has some ability (or readies an action) after being moved off the ground then I would allow them to land not prone (standing). And since this requires expending a standard action to ready, and another characters action (probably also a standard action) I'm inclined to not allow the normal AoO that would normally happen when standing up from prone. You're already paying a pretty hefty cost to do this when you could stand up from prone as a move action (albeit taking an AoO).
Let's come at your question from a different direction though, what are you trying to accomplish?
Getting character B to be not prone while also not provoking an AoO?
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I'm going to restate your question in the manner I understand it:
If character A took an action that would (at least temporarily) move character B off of the ground and into the air would that character remain prone?
Yes, this is exactly what I meant.
Let's come at your question from a different direction though, what are you trying to accomplish?
Getting character B to be not prone while also not provoking an AoO?
The goal was to find a way to remove prone from an enemy without their consent, because I am not aware of any ways to do that using a specified method, even using published 3pp.
The idea was to apply prone, for instance using Brawler's level 20 Improved Awesome Blow to push someone into a surface, provoking an opportunity attack from Vicious Stomp, and then in the same full attack using another Awesome Blow to punch the prone person upwards into the air, thus theoretically removing prone by taking them off of the ground, since the condition specifies "The character is lying on the ground", and then Awesome Blowing them back into a surface to apply prone again and provoke an attack of opportunity from Vicious Stomp again.
Awesome Blow cannot be part of a Full Attack action, as it takes a standard action to use (note, not a standard attack action, it's own standard action like grapple).
So you're trying some Mortal Kombat juggle combo?
And this all requires triggering multiple prone conditions on the same target, in the same round?
Awesome Blow cannot be part of a Full Attack action, as it takes a standard action to use (note, not a standard attack action, it's own standard action like grapple).The Level 20 Brawler class feature Improved Awesome Blow is specifically not a standard action,
"The brawler can use her awesome blow ability as an attack rather than as a standard action."
The goal was to find a way to remove prone from an enemy without their consent, because I am not aware of any ways to do that using a specified method, even using published 3pp.In the case of involuntary movement, I don't know of any effective way off hand. Usually involuntary movement doesn't provoke unless you have the equivalent of an improved or greater skill feat, like Greater Bullrush.
The involuntary movement wouldn't be the triggering factor, it would be them becoming prone which provokes, and I only need involuntary movement to make them stand up so I can make them prone again.
So you're trying some Mortal Kombat juggle combo?
And this all requires triggering multiple prone conditions on the same target, in the same round?
Yup, but I'm not sure how to trigger it after the first prone. If I could do it using exclusively attack actions it would eventually turn into a practically infinite combo for me as well.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you can make it an attack action, you don't even need that. Just launch them upwards into the air with your awesome blow (yes, literally juggle them), because then they're literally falling prone, and you aren't limited by number of attacks every round. You fall prone whenever you take falling damage, and the enemy would be falling 10 feet every time you launch them up, causing the ability to trigger and letting you use another AB with the AoO.
Of course this is dumb and any GM should probably disregard RAW and even RAI because its an almost infinite loop which is not how the game was meant to be played.
|
As usual, the rules are written thinking of a flat grid, not a three-dimensional one.
(The opponent) is knocked flying 10 feet in a direction of the attacking creature’s choice and falls prone. The attacking creature can only push the opponent in a straight line, and the opponent can’t move closer to the attacking creature than the square it started in.
If you push your opponent upward you aren't pushing him in a straight line. AFAIK, the straight line should start from your square border and extend to the opponent's square. Pushing the opponent upward doesn't respect that requirement.
Lucah's idea could work if there is an obstacle in the square behind the opponent, as it will fall into the starting square.
|
|
simply because a target is in the air doesn't mean they are flying. Forced movement/involuntary movement in the air doesn't qualify as Flying in PF1. The term can be used in an evocative descriptive way (I sent him flying with my awesome Bull Rush maneuver. I sent the arrow flying from my bow.)
The requirement for Vicious Stop is "fall prone", and being thrown by Awesome Blow satisfy it.
The problem is that the writer of the feat didn't think about using it on a guy already prone.Plugging these kinds of holes in the rules would have been the job of a Pathfinder 1.5 version of the game, but Paizo decided to make something more separated from D&D.
Alogic decision for a game company, a bit sad for us.
As usual, the rules are written thinking of a flat grid, not a three-dimensional one.
(The opponent) is knocked flying 10 feet in a direction of the attacking creature’s choice and falls prone. The attacking creature can only push the opponent in a straight line, and the opponent can’t move closer to the attacking creature than the square it started in.If you push your opponent upward you aren't pushing him in a straight line. AFAIK, the straight line should start from your square border and extend to the opponent's square. Pushing the opponent upward doesn't respect that requirement.
Sending someone straight up 10ft is a straight line. First they go 10ft straight up, then they are no longer being pushed, then unless they can fly or have airwalk or something similar, there is nothing that can support their weight, and then they fall that same 10ft. They fall 10 ft unwillingly and take 1d6 falling damage, then because they took falling damage, they fall prone adjacent to you, and trigger viscous stomp which can just be another awesome blow.
Debatably, there's also no clause that says anything that would make you fall prone doesn't make you fall prone because you're already prone. You can certainly trip someone who is already tripped to trigger greater grapple's AoO clause for a party with a bunch of AoO's over and over again, but likewise, this is a looping abuse of RAW that any GM should just houserule out because it's nonsensical.
|
|
As usual, the rules are written thinking of a flat grid, not a three-dimensional one.
(The opponent) is knocked flying 10 feet in a direction of the attacking creature’s choice and falls prone. The attacking creature can only push the opponent in a straight line, and the opponent can’t move closer to the attacking creature than the square it started in.If you push your opponent upward you aren't pushing him in a straight line. AFAIK, the straight line should start from your square border and extend to the opponent's square. Pushing the opponent upward doesn't respect that requirement.Sending someone straight up 10ft is a straight line. First they go 10ft straight up, then they are no longer being pushed, then unless they can fly or have airwalk or something similar, there is nothing that can support their weight, and then they fall that same 10ft. They fall 10 ft unwillingly and take 1d6 falling damage, then because they took falling damage, they fall prone adjacent to you, and trigger viscous stomp which can just be another awesome blow.
Debatably, there's also no clause that says anything that would make you fall prone doesn't make you fall prone because you're already prone. You can certainly trip someone who is already tripped to trigger greater grapple's AoO clause for a party with a bunch of AoO's over and over again, but likewise, this is a looping abuse of RAW that any GM should just houserule out because it's nonsensical.
I don't get where what you wrote is relevant to what I wrote.
Maybe I misinterpreted exactly what you mean by straight line, but that isn't what straight line means in game terms. Take Bullrush, where it has the clause "away from you" to indicate that you you can't say with reach bullrush someone closer to you. Breath Weapons are another example of a straight line that doesn't have to be "away from you", e.g.
The party decides to line up on the same flank of your squares as below for a colossal Dragon.
XPXPPXP
DDDDDDX
DDDDDDX
DDDDDDX
DDDDDDX
DDDDDDX
DDDDDDX
The dragon can shoot a straight line starting in the top left square in this representation down the entire line of the party by just shooting west to east on this "map". It could do the same thing if this was straight up into the air. Straight just means you don't bend such as by following the path below with numbers as steps of movement.
23
1X
The "away from you clause" means that it should be at a 45* angle away from you, if you don't stick to perfectly radial or perpendicular positioning.
More specifically, Awesome Blow states the creature "is knocked flying 10 feet in a direction of the attacking creature’s. The attacking creature can only push the opponent in a straight line, and the opponent can’t move closer to the attacking creature than the square it started in." By juggling them, not only are they not coming closer (they're coming to the exact same spot), but the effects of the pushed 10ft up in the air do fit the specific "straight line clause". Again, dumb and should be overruled by common sense RAW, but it's RAW.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can certainly trip someone who is already tripped
Well, you can't trip a prone target per this FAQ.
The language for conditions doesn't allow multiple instances of conditions (the language used is that you gain "the X condition"), which means you cannot apply a condition already on the target. And unless you want to claim that falling prone is not fluffy language for applying the prone condition (in which case we could argue that if it isn't, abilities like Awesome Blow wouldn't apply the condition or any of its downsides at all), no, you cannot make a prone target prone again.
Just because something is not explicitly spelled out doesn't mean it's allowed by the rules.
Losing the prone condition is not what triggers an AoO. Standing up is what triggers it. So, even if becoming airborne causes the target to lose the prone condition your idea will not work
You can certainly trip someone who is already trippedWell, you can't trip a prone target per this FAQ.
The language for conditions doesn't allow multiple instances of conditions (the language used is that you gain "the X condition"), which means you cannot apply a condition already on the target. And unless you want to claim that falling prone is not fluffy language for applying the prone condition (in which case we could argue that if it isn't, abilities like Awesome Blow wouldn't apply the condition or any of its downsides at all), no, you cannot make a prone target prone again.
Just because something is not explicitly spelled out doesn't mean it's allowed by the rules.
Again, "technically" this isn't what that says, it just says you can't stop them from standing up because even if you successfully trip them again, they then finish their action and are standing. But if I have greater trip, combat reflexes, and a lot of dex, nothing stops me from using my AoO from greater trip to trip them again to trigger greater trip's AoO over and over again; this is normally not useful, but when the entire party or even just one other guy has at least the combat reflexes and dexterity, they can capitalize on my chaining trips. Alternatively, the OP of this thread has found a way baked into a class to be that other person at the same time as being the tripper awesome blower.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Again, "technically" this isn't what that says
It literally says you cannot trip the target because it is still prone. The question was "can I use that attack to trip the character again?" and the answer was "no" with the reasoning "the target is still prone when the attack of opportunity occurs". There is no interpretation of these words that doesn't make already being prone prevent tripping.
But if I have greater trip, combat reflexes, and a lot of dex, nothing stops me from using my AoO from greater trip to trip them again to trigger greater trip's AoO over and over again
Nope, the above FAQ if nothing else prevents you. Greater Trip triggers "Whenever you successfully trip an opponent", and the trip rules gives success of the maneuver as "the target is knocked prone". When the condition for Greater Trip is fulfilled, the condition is already on the target.
Note that the FAQ saying "The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved." is not a general rule, it applies to this circumstance. In the case of standing up from prone, it's performing the action that provokes, whereas Greater Trip triggers upon completion of the trip maneuver (you can't know whether the maneuver is successful before it is completed).
So no, the rules absolutely do not allow 'chain tripping', not even by strictest RAW. On the flip side, the above means the AoO from Greater Trip must be against the AC affected by the prone condition, which is good for anyone not trying to use Snap Shot for the AoO.
to be fair. the question was if he can trip him again. ('can I use that attack to trip the character again') he ask if he can trip him after he get up when he provoke for getting up (remember the aoo in the faq IS for getting up, not greater trip aoo). and the answer show that to be the question as it talk about that the provoking happen before he get up thus he can still get up after the aoo. ('Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up'). it can be read as ether way or nether, as the question and answer both do not focus about if he can trip him when he is down but rather if he try to stand up to keep him down, which the answer is -it won't matter as he can still get up.
as for "and the trip rules gives success of the maneuver as "the target is knocked prone". When the condition for Greater Trip is fulfilled, the condition is already on the target." so? this won't be the first effect that can be done to some1 who is already effected by similar effect. it just won't stack. your are missing a ruling that state 'a prone creature can not be tripped.' (which logically is a given to must GM, me included, but were talking RAW here, which has nothing to do with logic ;).
as for the benefit of 'chain tripping'?
'just' spend 9 feats getting both greater trip and brute assault (which among other require combat reflexes).
the target's speed would only be halved once if he fail, but the str damage stacks even when he saves.
he ask if he can trip him after he get up when he provoke for getting up
Sure, but the question is answered with "no", and the reason given for why it doesn't work is "the target is still prone when the attack of opportunity occurs". If it would be possible to trip the target (and the tripping just wouldn't prevent getting up), the answer would have to be "yes, but it doesn't do you any good".
We're discussion the rules as written here, and the only way the written answer "no" can be correct is if in the situation described you cannot trip the target. And there is absolutly nothing that could possibly prevent the target being tripped apart from the prone condition being on the target.
This is what I meant with "Just because something is not explicitly spelled out doesn't mean it's allowed by the rules." In Pathfinder, FAQs are part of the RAW, and the answer given by the FAQ in combination with the explanation is only correct if a preexisting prone condition prevents tripping.
I mean we can diagram the question and answer sentences to show how the part that's in question is not weather you can do an action that normally has no beneficial riders on someone who has already taken its primary effect but is instead on will doing such an action lock them into never being able to stand up. And the FAQ can be correct in both cases of "you can trip someone who is already prone to (usually) no effect" and "you can't, stop trying to game the system." The FAQ says nothing about this, it just clarifies that performing a trip on someone standing up, by the nature of AoO, will not make the person prone by the end of his action.
I'm not saying we should follow this RAW, RAW is messy in many many places, I'm saying that often the game calls on just a little bit of outside thinking. If the OP's gm is someone that would allow this kind of "well RAW says..." nonsense, then they would be nearly equally justified in allowing their original idea.
I mean we can diagram the question and answer sentences to show how the part that's in question is not weather you can do an action that normally has no beneficial riders on someone who has already taken its primary effect but is instead on will doing such an action lock them into never being able to stand up.
Nonsense. This isn't the question asks, and it's not the motivation behind the question.
You cannot base the rules as written on something you made up. What the hell?
I seriously don't get why you are so obsessed with trying to construct some nonsensical interpretation that no one will ever use as RAW. You're making completely fallacious arguments for something that you're opposing. It makes no sense.
Losing the prone condition is not what triggers an AoO. Standing up is what triggers it. So, even if becoming airborne causes the target to lose the prone condition your idea will not work
The OP has Vicious Stomp, so yes falling prone does provoke.
I'll try again with a repost...
...
a FAQ check. Standing & AoO to Trip. Grtr Trip & Vicious Stomp. So Feats can offer an opportunity to use another feat based on an instantaneous descriptor condition.
Vicious Stomp Feat
Grtr Trip Feat
Awesome Blow Feat it would seem that the only case where the target creature falls prone within an attacker's threatened square (within a 5ft reach) is striking an intervening object in their path of travel. Technically throwing them up means they "fall Prone" 10 ft up in the air and not in a threatened square within 5ft reach.
so there are two FAQs on this topic in the CRB depending on exactly what abilities are in play. I then listed all the feats in play in the description and thread.
I was careful with the wording (a more mathematical term) for the second FAQ. As I see it IF the first feat causes an instantaneous condition to be applied then other creatures need to meet the normal criteria to take advantage of that condition. The moment after that instant is over - the advantage/opportunity is lost. Of course if the target creature has a feat that applies AND an action, then it can apply that feat when the condition is applied.
Allowing a target creature to be thrown into the air is gracious on behalf of the GM but not unreasonable as clearly the feat is written in a flat two-dimensional way. A simplistic GM ruling would be "no, you cannot throw them into the air as the feat description does not allow that".
Even if the GM allows Awesome Blow to knock someone into the air, doing so wouldn't cause them to be not prone. They would continue to be prone.
There might be some way of making the creature not prone, but Awesome Blow isn't going to do it and therefore Vicious Stomp wont activate.
Now, I would allow someone to spend a standard action (that provokes) to pick up the enemy and force them to standing (possibly against their will requiring probably a combat maneuver check). Then you could knock them prone again, and activate vicious stomp. But that's not going to be an infinite loop.
In any event, any ruling that would potentially allow for an infinite loop is obviously a nonsensical bad ruling. A GM shouldn't allow for this, even if it were supported by the rules because it's bad for the game.
Tbh, performing 3d combat in this game is one of the hardest things to do and that's because the rules are written in a way to have everything happening on the ground in a 2d combat scenario. So once you become airborne, the rules that can help you are minimal. Almost everything you do while airborne is going to be based on the 2d rules, or the specific rules from the spell/ability that is allowing you to fly, or the Fly Skill rules themselves, and if these cannot help you, then everything after that is going to be some sort of house rule or some case-by-case ruling that you make on the spot. And every character that is level 5 or higher has some sort of access to performing flight, some races can do this even earlier than level 5, so this is a massive oversight from Paizo and WotC. That being said...
If the target is prone on the ground, and then something causes that target to then get launched into the air, you're going to run into problems rules-wise if you continue to consider that target prone. Some animal companions have ways of aerial tripping, and there are some feats that allow for aerial trips as well, such as Ace Trip, and both of these would cause the target to fall back to the ground or start descending. And here's the rub, you cannot trip someone who is already considered prone, and you'll be removing your player's ability to perform certain AoO's, such as from Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp. So, how I would handle this is to cause the target to lose the prone condition when they get launched into the air, and then, I would give that target a circumstance penalty and circumstance bonus equivalent to the Prone condition. But, if you're going to be doing this on a regular basis, you should probably homebrew your own "Launched" condition, something like:
Launched:
A launched target is a creature who was prone and then through some ability or spell becomes thrown upwards against their will and are now airborne, but they are flailing wildly and are not in control of their velocity or trajectory. A launched target has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A launched defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks. Recovering from being Launched is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
Alternatively, you can consider the airborne target to remain prone, but disallow AoO's from Greater Trip/Vicious Stomp and disallow aerial tripping until the target has taken a move action to "stand up". <--- I feel like this is a nerf to the PC's though