What is the best "battlefield taxi" for an archer?

[DRD1812]

Standing in the backfield while unloading shot after shot into the baddies is an appealing combat style. As an archer you’ll be full-attacking long before the dumb brute with the pointy metal stick closes to melee, meaning that you basically get a free turn just for rolling initiative. Of course, that assumes you’re fighting on a featureless plane. If you’ve ever plucked a bowstring, fletched an arrow, or shot into melee, you know just how rarely that’s the case. That in turn makes mobility really friggin’ important for an archer.

So here's my question to the board: What’s the best way to get around the battlefield as an archer? Do you go the mounted route? Buy a flying carpet? Get your Barbarian to play Master Blaster with you? Gimme all your best battlefield taxis!

(Comic related.)

[TxSam88]

boot's of haste is the best, not only can it be used for movement, but also for extra attack. boots of teleportation, wand if dimension door.

as for fighting on a plane. in the AP's more often that not you can simply stand and shoot.

[Matthew Morris]

Higher levels? Phantom Steed if you can get it. (thinking the archer magus, warlock vigilante, or item.)

10th level casting gives you a mount that moves at 100' can walk/run on water, mud, etc. It's 'just' a dc 20 ride check to dismount/mount as a free action, at 12th it's airwalking.

Short on skill points? "Just" 4k GP and you get an int boosting ioun stone that you can use to max out your ride skill. (assuming you're using the headband slot for something else.)

[Dragonchess Player]

Second phantom steed.

IMO, one of the "best" archers is a [fighter or ranger]* 1/wizard 6/eldritch knight 2/arcane archer 3/eldritch knight +8. +17 BAB and spellcasting progression as a 17th level wizard (9th-level spells) at 20th level.

*- or cavalier (emissary archetype for Mounted Combat as a bonus feat), if you want a mount early and an easier path to Mounted Archery

[Dragonchess Player]

Alternately, ganzi (Weaponplay oddity) arcanist (blood arcanist [Orc bloodline]) 6/eldritch knight 3/arcane archer 4/eldritch knight +7 can work if you want to focus on maximizing single arrow damage.

[Tim Emrick]

My wife's high-level zen archer monk has a very high land speed, and carries a potion of fly in case that and her ki-enhanced jumping doesn't get her where she wants to be.

[Azothath]

depends on level.
At low level a simple heavy war horse will do. You could purchase another more exotic mount later. Don't discount Expeditious Retreat and Feather Step.
At mid levels, magic. I'd agree Phantom Steed is excellent IF the wizard will sacrifice his spell for your movement. Great duration and excellent speed. Gaseous Form is a debuff, Flying is slow but self contained.
At higher levels a Flying Carpet is costly but with a Fortifying Stone pretty durable. In the old days a Broom was excellent.

[Darigaaz the Igniter]

Research indicates a feathered velociraptor is the objectively best choice.

[Temperans]

Why get a mount or boots when you can play a Sylph with Wings of Air?

That also makes it so that you get concealment vs enemy arrows, and you can get effectively hide amongst the cloud with no way for enemies to avoid you. It does become more questionable in enclosed places, but that is true for any archery build.

[Azothath]

Temperans wrote:

Why get a mount or boots when you can play a Sylph with Wings of Air?

That also makes it so that you get concealment vs enemy arrows, and you can get effectively hide amongst the cloud with no way for enemies to avoid you. It does become more questionable in enclosed places, but that is true for any archery build.

Sylph race is a special race which may not be accessible by players.

Wings of Air Feat requires 9th level and Airy Step another Feat...

are you honestly suggesting that 2 feats and 9th level is the equivalent of a geared up heavy war horse(326GP) at 1-2nd level... I hope your archer build has those 2 spare feats as they are notoriously feat starved builds... If you want to post a joke at least include a bad Rickroll Velociraptor link or an appropriate smiley, '''⌐(ಠ۾ಠ)¬'''.

[Temperans]

Azothath wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Why get a mount or boots when you can play a Sylph with Wings of Air?

That also makes it so that you get concealment vs enemy arrows, and you can get effectively hide amongst the cloud with no way for enemies to avoid you. It does become more questionable in enclosed places, but that is true for any archery build.

Sylph race is a special race which may not be accessible by players.

Wings of Air Feat requires 9th level and Airy Step another Feat...

are you honestly suggesting that 2 feats and 9th level is the equivalent of a geared up heavy war horse(326GP) at 1-2nd level... I hope your archer build has those 2 spare feats as they are notoriously feat starved builds... If you want to post a joke at least include a bad Rickroll Velociraptor link or an appropriate smiley, '''⌐(ಠ۾ಠ)¬'''.

First of all, a geared up war horse costs way more than 326 gp if you want it to actually live past level 5. But that is the east of your issues.

In order to do mounted archery well you need at the very least mounted combat, mounted archery, and improved mounted archery. That is 3 feats just so that you don't take a massive -4(-8) on your attacks.

Then if you want an animal companion (better than a random horse) that is either: 1 limited use feat (Figurine Companion), 2-3 feats (Nature Soul, Animal Ally, Boon Companion), a sizeable dip into a class that grants it at risk of it falling behind, or VMC Druid costing you 5 feats.

Then you are forgetting what Airy Step and Wings of Air actually do: +4 vs Air and Electricity effects (oh look +4 vs a sizeable amount of anti air), reduce fall damage by 30 ft (oh look safety), extraordinary flight equal to your speed (flight speed that cannot be dispelled, removed, and that scales with haste). Not to mention that level 9 is one of the fastest way to get permanent flight.

****************

So don't come at me talking about trolling when when your archery build requires 3+ feats and spending half your gold maintaining a companion.

[Claxon]

TxSam88 wrote:

boot's of haste is the best, not only can it be used for movement, but also for extra attack. boots of teleportation, wand if dimension door.

as for fighting on a plane. in the AP's more often that not you can simply stand and shoot.

Strong disagree. Having a mount or animal companion means extra actions that you can spend on navigating around the battlefield without reducing your ability to make full attacks.

Boots of haste are great for spell casters as they don't need their move action as often as any martial character (who always wants to full attack).

My vote is for anything you can ride with it's own actions, and preferably has flight.

[Claxon]

Temperans wrote:

In order to do mounted archery well you need at the very least mounted combat, mounted archery, and improved mounted archery. That is 3 feats just so that you don't take a massive -4(-8) on your attacks.

I've played an archer Ranger and an archer Chivalry inquisition Inquisitor.

While mounted combat isn't bad for keeping your mount alive, I personally didn't take it. I kept away from melee and my mount didn't make attacks so the GM didn't target it. Mounted archery and Improved Mounted archery are straight no gos as feats for me. Archery already requires too many feats. Mounted archery only matters if you mount would make a double move. And while it sucks to take the penalties, the number of times I needed to double move were small, so I felt better just eating the penalties on those rare occasions. Same thing for Improved Mounted Combat.

The whole point of having a mount (for me) was to enable me to full attack each turn so I didn't have to spend my move actions to reposition.

[Azothath]

Temperans wrote:

Azothath wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Why get a mount or boots when you can play a Sylph with Wings of Air?

That also makes it so that you get concealment vs enemy arrows, and you can get effectively hide amongst the cloud with no way for enemies to avoid you. It does become more questionable in enclosed places, but that is true for any archery build.

Sylph race is a special race which may not be accessible by players.

Wings of Air Feat requires 9th level and Airy Step another Feat...

are you honestly suggesting that 2 feats and 9th level is the equivalent of a geared up heavy war horse(326GP) at 1-2nd level... I hope your archer build has those 2 spare feats as they are notoriously feat starved builds... If you want to post a joke at least include a bad Rickroll Velociraptor link or an appropriate smiley, '''⌐(ಠ۾ಠ)¬'''.

First of all, a geared up war horse costs way more than 326 gp if you want it to actually live past level 5. But that is the east of your issues...

creating a straw man plan and attacking it to distract isn't a successful tactic. This thread is about better movement not a dedicated mount build. If the player wants a mounted charge build then they'll do that. You don't address 1-9th level. Nor do you address the cost of creating a PC using a specific race with 2 specific feats compared to spells or a magic item that simply costs GP. Lastly you did not disclose the limitations. The cost of your plan is simply too high and the benefit comes too late. IMO it sounds great but isn't practical for actual play, just another 'bad plan'.

The plan I suggested is a phased approach (see my initial post). Horses are pretty good and if it dies... well, it was pretty cheap to begin with so buy another. At 9th level horses are basically free if you use Mount spell. At 9th I suggest Phantom Steed or you could use a magic item.
Every attack on a mount is an attack that doesn't target the rider. THAT alone could be worth the 300GP for the horse.

Character classes with a mount or AnmlCmpn should go that route. It's free and generally easily replaceable. They can supplement with a magic item or spell.

[Claxon]

Azothath wrote:

Character classes with a mount or AnmlCmpn should go that route. It's free and generally easily replaceable. They can supplement with a magic item or spell.

I guess what I'm saying is that in my opinion, the best candidates for being archers are ones that have access to (or can afford access to) mounts/animal companions.

Archery is a feat heavy chain, and while I wouldn't normally recommend spending 3 feats (on Nature Soul, Animal Ally, and Boon Companion) classes like fighter can afford it to allow them to become a mounted turret.

I can't remember if fighter has any archetypes that grant animal companions, or if there tradeoffs are worth it (for example while losing Bravery use to be no big deal, but with Advanced Weapon Training it shores up a poor save for the class) but a fighter can general spend 3 feats without it being troublesome.

Of course, if you can easily get access to the mount spell it will do everything you need it to do which is get you from A to B in combat. Phantom Steed is even better, but has a greater opportunity cost to access (without an item).

[DRD1812]

Is there any merit to relying on your allies for this biz? For example, if you've got a necromancer in the party, riding around on a skeletal wooly mammoth howdah seems like a viable option with slightly less feat investment.

[Claxon]

DRD1812 wrote:

Is there any merit to relying on your allies for this biz? For example, if you've got a necromancer in the party, riding around on a skeletal wooly mammoth howdah seems like a viable option with slightly less feat investment.

I suppose. The primary purpose (from my point of view) is to provide you with another character with a high(er than your) movement speed that can spend their actions on repositioning you around the battlefield so you can focus on attacking.

The bad part is that you will be relying on your necromancer friend to control your mount, so you will have to sync your turn after theirs.

[TxSam88]

Claxon wrote:

DRD1812 wrote:

Is there any merit to relying on your allies for this biz? For example, if you've got a necromancer in the party, riding around on a skeletal wooly mammoth howdah seems like a viable option with slightly less feat investment.

I suppose. The primary purpose (from my point of view) is to provide you with another character with a high(er than your) movement speed that can spend their actions on repositioning you around the battlefield so you can focus on attacking.

The bad part is that you will be relying on your necromancer friend to control your mount, so you will have to sync your turn after theirs.

Considering the range increment for longbows is 100', I've never seen much need to "reposition" an archer. You should have allies on the field who are engaging bad guys, and shooting into that combat. There are feats that allow you to ignore most cover, so really, as long as the badguy is in the same room/area, you can shoot him. Any kind of reposition takes you down to 1 arrow at most, so avoiding any kind of repositioning is the optimal choice.

[Claxon]

TxSam88 wrote:

Claxon wrote:

DRD1812 wrote:

Is there any merit to relying on your allies for this biz? For example, if you've got a necromancer in the party, riding around on a skeletal wooly mammoth howdah seems like a viable option with slightly less feat investment.

I suppose. The primary purpose (from my point of view) is to provide you with another character with a high(er than your) movement speed that can spend their actions on repositioning you around the battlefield so you can focus on attacking.

The bad part is that you will be relying on your necromancer friend to control your mount, so you will have to sync your turn after theirs.

Considering the range increment for longbows is 100', I've never seen much need to "reposition" an archer. You should have allies on the field who are engaging bad guys, and shooting into that combat. There are feats that allow you to ignore most cover, so really, as long as the badguy is in the same room/area, you can shoot him. Any kind of reposition takes you down to 1 arrow at most, so avoiding any kind of repositioning is the optimal choice.

You've never been inside of a building with limited sight lines? You've never encountered wind wall? You've never been in a party where your melee comrades are outnumbered by the number of melee enemies 2 to 1 and so the GM sends them after you?

I would consider yourself very lucky then. There are a good number of reasons why repositioning yourself can be necessary. It doesn't happen all the time, but it's great when it does because without a mount to move you your damage output becomes negligible when you have to move.

*Edit: Remember, while mounted archers get to make full attacks. That's why this is so f##%ing good, I'm getting the sense that you may have forgotten this.

Quote:

When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.

If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).

You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.

And the whole point of this thread is asking about having a "battle taxi" to avoid you spending your move action to deal with exactly the kinds of situation I'm referring to.

Mounted archery in PF1 was crazy hilariously good because you always full attacked and enemy couldn't catch you.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Halfling Warpriest (Divine Commander)6/Hunter 3

Alt racial trait: warslinger
Trait: Fate's Favored

L1 Point Blank Shot
L1 Bonus Weapon Focus: Slingstaff
L3 Precise Shot
L3 Bonus Coordinated Shot
L2 Hunter Precise Shot; retrain L3 feat to Arc Slinger
L5 Slipslinger Style
L3 Hunter Enfilading Fire
L7 Weapon Specialization: Slingstaff
L9 Rapid Shot

At this point you can either ride around on your mount up to 50' from your foes, +2 slingstaff +16 (1d6+7); full attack +14/+14/+9 (assuming a Str 12 at this point), or you can stand 50' from your mount in melee, attacking the foe it's threatening with +1 to hit or +4 if your mount gets into a flank.

For extra damage you can buff your mount so they deliver melee damage, then self-buff with Fervor/Divine Favor (+3 to attack and damage for 1 minute) or Sacred Weapon, either one being a Swift. You're not doing tons of damage per hit but you're at +16 with your basic ranged attack while CR 9 foes have an average 23 AC, so you've got a 70% chance to hit with a single shot.

Optimal strategy with this PC is to hand out Coordinated Shot to all your allies who might end up in melee and have them generate flanks to give you +4 on ranged attacks for the round. As long as your mount single moves, you shouldn't have to worry about much except for foes using Charge attacks. If you end up in melee, you've still got a combat mount as well as melee attack: +2 slingstaff +11 (1d6 +6). Last but not least, vaulting from the saddle is a Free action on a DC 20 Ride check. By this level you should have Ride +17 and you can ignore the Armor Check penalty while still in the saddle but leaping out per your Mount class ability.

[TxSam88]

Claxon wrote:

You've never been inside of a building with limited sight lines? You've never encountered wind wall? You've never been in a party where your melee comrades are outnumbered by the number of melee enemies 2 to 1 and so the GM sends them after you?

I would consider yourself very lucky then. There are a good number of reasons why repositioning yourself can be necessary. It doesn't happen all the time, but it's great when it does because without a mount to move you your damage output becomes negligible when you have to move.

Most combats inside buildings happen within 1 room, or the badguys are flooding into your room, as mentioned there are feats to counter cover, so yeah, never had much of a problem with site lines being an issue, also, if I can't see them, they can't see me, so those bad guys are usually a non-issue.

Very few badguys have access to Windwall (We play AP's and it almost never comes up).

2:1 bad guys and they come after me, fine, there are feats to fire at point blank bad guys at no penalty, and Archers are one of the highest damage dealing classes in the game, not to mention one of the higher ACs and highest Init bonus. Bad guys coming to melee are no big deal. Also, once I max my archery feats (as a fighter that's usually level 11, I start the TWF feat tree, and can switch hit)

so yeah, the few times I need to reposition, a simple run action, or boots of speed, or boots of teleportation are enough, sacrificing one round of combat far makes up for the feats it takes for mounted combat. (not to mention the issue of taking mounts into buildings, dungeons etc. )

[Mark Hoover 330]

I haven't had dedicated archers in recent campaigns, but I've had a lot of switch-hitters. The one problem they run into, even outdoors, is monsters charging or running into their melee space. Needing a "battlefield taxi" seems to be a pretty niche scenario, but maybe I'm wrong.

[Claxon]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

I haven't had dedicated archers in recent campaigns, but I've had a lot of switch-hitters. The one problem they run into, even outdoors, is monsters charging or running into their melee space. Needing a "battlefield taxi" seems to be a pretty niche scenario, but maybe I'm wrong.

For a switch hitter that's an ideal scenario. The switch hitter is little more than a melee build that uses a bow on the first round. They let the enemy come to them rather than uses their move actions to do so. It lets the switch hitter (hopefully) make a full melee attack on round 2 of combat. It does usually require having quick draw to make work but it's viable. However it's often a nightmare for a dedicated archer because every attack with the bow can provoke. It's a great time, if you have a mount, to move away (in case the enemy has combat reflexes). You'll provoke the same or less AoO by moving away.

However, if you can get access to point blank master there's little reason to not just stand in melee with them shoot, unless your goal is simply to avoid damage.

Still, not everyone can access point blank master and still wants to be a dedicated archer. And that's where the battlefield taxi is useful.

I'm not saying it's absolutely required to play an archer with a taxi, but if you can get it for minimal investment/cost it's nice.

For example, on a fighter I would never bother with picking up two weapon fighting feat tree as you suggest. You pick up point blank master, now if you want you can fire in melee without provoking, and there are other feats negating the penalties for cover and firing into melee, etc. However, once you finish up the "required" feats for archery as a fighter you can spend feats on getting an animal companion to ferry you around. There's no need to switch hit.

I'm not saying every combat is going to see you as an archer put into situations where you need to move. But have your own taxi to deal with it when it comes up, with no negative to your in combat efficiency is nice.