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i believe the flying blade swashbuckler archtype was made with this style in mind. he can combine both melee and range and cha is a main stat for his class abilities.
He get to:
- change the main focused weapons of swashbucklers to daggers and starknives
- throw the starknife without provoking. cost points.
- use a starknife to counter attack before the attack is resolved and give the attacker a penalty to hit if the counter works (beside the damage). cost points.
- gain better range increments (and can pay points to ignore it's penalties) and deal extra precision damage farther then the standard 30 ft.
- uses targeted strike & bleeding wound deeds at range as well as melee. and change the level 15 deed to work in range instead of melee
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I suggest an Eldritch Scion Magus (good melee ability and cha to spellcasting), possibly with one level of Lore Oracle (cha to AC, reflex, and knowledge checks), and feats like Noble Scion (cha to initiative) and Steadfast Personality (cha to mind-affecting saves).
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It seems to me that very few people use it which leads me to believe it may be a trap.
Here's the thing: dexterity already applies to init, AC, and reflex saving throws; it costs only two feats to get dex to hit and to damage (and with a better weapon than the starknife). You can be SAD on dexterity for just two feats.
Being SAD on charisma is more expensive than that. However, the upside is that you can get cha-based spellcasting but not dex-based. So you're looking for any class that does fighting AND casting; and the best fighter among cha-based casters is the Eldritch Scion Magus. HTH.
(it is, to my knowledge, impossible to become SAD on str, con, or int; and getting wis to weapon damage requires a rarely-allowed sourcebook).
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Obligatory post to point out that while Divine Fighting Style is a PFS legal feat, the "Desna's Shooting Star" style itself is NOT a PFS legal option: As I recall, it was just felt that it gave 'too much' for 'too little' to be considered 'balanced' for the organized play campaign, and thing banned from PFS for 'balance' reasons are often banned from a lot of other games as well...
So, you probably want to check with your GM before building this character (assuming this is more than just a build exercise)...
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There are so many ways to take a starknife build and so many conflicting opinions on it. It seems to me that very few people use it which leads me to believe it may be a trap. Thing is my GM is enforcing a 15 point buy on stats for his APs and that leads me to building super SAD characters so I found this thing and want to build around Cha.
There's not really a "wrong" way to use this feat. One reason for the conflicting opinions is that if you want to truly optimize a throwing build (with the blinkback belt) you want Two-Weapon Fighting. Which has substantial Dex requirements at higher levels. So that lessens the benefits of taking Desna's Fighting Style and in turn means you likely aren't building around Desna's Fighting Style as your core. Another is that Charisma-based classes usually don't get as many feats as some other classes and ranged attacking in general is very feat-intensive. Especially an issue if you are a spellcaster who wants metamagic, spell focus, etc.
Having said that, it's not a trap and is definitely a great pickup if you are a charisma-based class and just want to be able to occasionally contribute well with a weapon when you don't have anything else to do. In which case you probably want to focus on melee so you don't have to bother with all the ranged attack "feat taxes." Or you can go the ranged route and just be good at it. Bards and Oracles in particular. You won't be "the best" but optimization usually isn't required in most real games.
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Startoss Style is legit, and it does not say that it only applies to ranged attacks... its prerequisites include Weapon Focus, which also works with both melee and ranged.
The Flying Blade Swashbuckler can do god's work with Desna's Shooting Star. Getting the Human bonus feat can get you completely set up on Charisma at level one...
1. Noble Scion of War
1. Desna's Shooting Star
3. Quickdraw
4. Weapon Focus
5. Point Blank Shot
7. Iron Will
8. Startoss Style
Ninjas can make decent use of Desna's Shooting Star if they get proficiency with it [in any of the various ways]. Being a Gnome opens up Bewildering Koan as early as level 3... which is just awesome.
1. Desna's Shooting Star
2. Weapon Focus [ninja trick]
3. Bewildering Koan
5. Empty Threats
6. Dazzling Display [ninja trick]
7. Iron Will
9. Shatter Defenses
My helpful Halfling Eldritch Scion Magus is VMC Sorcerer to double down on the Arcane Bloodline(s), so the feat order is a little wonky... but still rocking Desna's Shooting Star from the start.
1. Desna's Shooting Star
VMC
5. Combat Expertise
5. Versatile Spontaneity
VMC
9. Improved Familiar
11. Swift Aid
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An Oracle, as a 3/4 BAB full Charisma-caster can easily smash with Desna's Shooting Star... 9/9 spellcasters are often "expected" to have a +9 modifier in their casting stat. Oracles are also one of the easier classes to abuse Charisma with. Again, being Human for that bonus feat gives you a chance to start with both Desna's Shooting Star and Noble Scion of War.
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One thing that could work fairly well would be a champion of the faith warpriest. Since this feat makes CHA your combat stat you don’t need to invest much in STR. Heavy armor means your AC is going to be fairly decent so your DEX also does not need to be that high. I am not suggesting dumping those stats, but not putting much into them. That means all you need focus on is WIS and CHA with a moderate CON. If you stick to mostly buff and support spells you WIS only needs to be high enough to cast your spells leaving more points for CHA. This makes the class incredibly SAD.
Sacred Weapon means your damage dice start at 1d6 instead of 1d4 and scale up from there. Smite Evil (or Law) gives you your level to damage and CHA to AC without having to dip into another class or spend a feat.
Fervor gives you swift action casting or healing
Blessing give you the ability to add an extra 1d6 vs evil creatures (or Lawful), for a starting damage of 2d6 +CHA and counts as good (or Chaos).
The extra feats a warpriests gets is another significant advantage.
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One thing that could work fairly well would be a champion of the faith warpriest. Since this feat makes CHA your combat stat you don’t need to invest much in STR. Heavy armor means your AC is going to be fairly decent so your DEX also does not need to be that high. I am not suggesting dumping those stats, but not putting much into them. That means all you need focus on is WIS and CHA with a moderate CON. If you stick to mostly buff and support spells you WIS only needs to be high enough to cast your spells leaving more points for CHA. This makes the class incredibly SAD.
Sacred Weapon means your damage dice start at 1d6 instead of 1d4 and scale up from there. Smite Evil (or Law) gives you your level to damage and CHA to AC without having to dip into another class or spend a feat.
Fervor gives you swift action casting or healing
Blessing give you the ability to add an extra 1d6 vs evil creatures (or Lawful), for a starting damage of 2d6 +CHA and counts as good (or Chaos).
The extra feats a warpriests gets is another significant advantage.
Overall, this seems more MAD than a normal Warpriest build:
You still want a decent strength (to avoid encumbrance penalties in your heavy armor) and Wisdom (for your spells) so 'charisma to attack and damage' makes your stat allocation tougher. Given that you don't even get the skill points to get decent social skills, I think you're better off with just investing in Strength.Perhaps more significantly, I don't think you can 'double down' on adding Charisma to your attack roll from both the combat style and Smite...
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First things first: There is no universal "best", as it always depends on what you want and what the group and the campaign look like.
I know this probably doesn't seem helpful, but it's an important thing to realize. There is no 'overpowered' build using DSS, nothing that is clearly above all others, so it boils down to preference, party composition, and campaign characteristics.
I think some talk about basics is in order. What DSS does is allow a character to become SAD, for the cost of investing a feat and being forced to use a bad weapon. A melee DSS build is almost always weaker on the martial side than a strength-based build, or than a dex-based build for e.g. Swashbuckler. In exchange, DSS strengthens other aspects of your character.
On its own, charisma is the least valuable ability score in Pathfinder, as only some skills are keyed off it. With the mentioned investment and downside, just boosting some skills is a bad trade, so DSS is only worth it if you have good class features keyed off charisma.
One must also never forget that a starknife is truly a terrible weapon. It's a martial weapon, a non-reach weapon, a light weapon (so no 1.5x charisma from two-handing it unless it's oversized), and it only crits on a 20.
Furthermore, you can only apply your charisma bonus to attack and/or dmaage rolls once, so abilities that already do so make DSS lose a lot of value.
The find out good classes and archetypes, it's important to keep the above in mind. For classes without bonus feats, a feat is often a quite notable investment, and if you don't start with proficiency, it looks even worse (although there is a human-only trait for that). If your class is already not good at martial side, DSS is fighting an uphill battle, and such classes also usually prefer reach weapons.
• Swashbuckler only uses charisma for panache pool and Charmed Life bonus. A bigger panache pool sounds good, but in practise, panache recovery is the bottleneck, and cutting the amount of crits to a third is horrible; meanwhile, the Vengeful Heart renowned deed can profive an alternative boost to saves.
• Paladin has qute a lot keyed off charisma, with 4/9 spellcasting, LoH uses per day, Divine Favor, and two bonuses from Smite Evil, but the attack roll bonus from Smite Evil doesn't stack with DSS. That means that whereas a sterength-based Paladin can get an attack roll boost when fighting touch enemies, a DSS builds doesn't have that option, and and indeed has no attack roll boost at all.
• Skald has 6/9 casting, which alone is certainly worth getting a high ability score for, but it can't benefit from both DSS and Inspired Rage at the same time.
• Bard isn't really a premier melee, and doesn't have the feats for a thrown build. A non-reach non-dex-based melee is rether risky.
• Summoner is like Bard, only worse at attacking, and with almost no offensive spells that could make use of the higher DC.
• Oracle is not a great melee, but usually wants a reach weapon, and doesn't have bonus feats to make thrown work. It can get Charisma to Init, AC, Reflex save, attack roll, and damage roll, which sounds impressive, but is a high investment and locks you into a mystery with no suport for a martial playstyle. The biggest issue with Oracle, however, is that with DSS you're a full caster with maxed-out casting-related ability score, and it gets more and more difficult to justify attacking instead of using your so-much-more powerful spells.
• Medium only has 4/9 casting keyed off charisma, at least when channeling the normal spirit for adventuring, which is not enough to make DSS worth the cost. A charisma focus makes Archemage and Hierophant spirits better, but is that useful enough to make up for reduced prowess when channeling Champion spirit? Depends on your preferences, party, and campaign.
• Bloodrager only has 4/9 casting keyed off charisma, and DSS shuts down the main benefits of Rage.
• Eldritch Scion Magus is a notable downgrade, and the standard Shocking Grasp playstyle benefits a lot from using a high crit range weapon, something a DSS user loses out on.
• Magical Child Vigilante is sadly rather weak, and has the same issues as Bard.
• Feyspeaker Druid has no support for the martial side when using DSS.
• Elder Mythos Cultist Cleric, the only cha-based Cleric archetype, requires worshipping a different deity.
• Dandy Ranger only uses charisma for 4/9 casting (and is pretty weak anyway).
• Fractured Mind Spiritualist is pretty much like Summoner.
• Scaled Fist Monk needs five feats plus proficiency (another feat or trait) to flurry with it, that's not feasible unless you start at high level.
Make no mistake, most of the above can be made to work with DSS, but it's not an upgrade compared to normal builds.
Classes and archetypes not mentioned yet:
• Mesmerist has 6/9 casting and multiple class features keyed off charisma. Even more so, the stare feats often have a powerful effected with a DC based on charsma. While Mesmerists don't need to attack themself to use any of their class features, they can do so and get some extra bonus damage. For a gish Mesmerist that aims to attack, DSS is probably the best build there is.
• Sworn of the Eldest Inquisitor is an archetyp made for a weird race that's often disallowed due to having a natural fly speed, but if you're able to play it (either the race, or the archetype on a different race), a DSS build works really well. There's a lot keyed off charism, the class doesn't really need feats to work, and the martial part of it is good.
• Wyrm Singer Skald replaces the usual rage bonuses with a bonus to melee attack and damage rolls, making it compatible with DSS. The Bard list has quite a lot of offensive spells that a high charisma bonus makes much more viable, and there's even a pretty good totem rage power chain that lets everyone profit from your high charisma. It's a really nice and quite powerful build, although the raging song only buffs non-rage-using melees. .
• Archaeologist Bard still has Bard's weaknesses, but profits quite a bit more from high Charisma. That advantage vanishes when your GM lets you qualify for Lingering performance, though.
There is one more thing that DSS does: It makes throwing use the same ability score for both attack and damage rolls, something that usually requires a 14k gold magic item. DSS also combines exceptionally well with the Blinkback Belt, as you need neither the above belt, nor do you need a belt to boost your attack roll. However, throwing builds are notoriously weak, and have little advantage over archery. Throwing is very feat hungry, and there is no build with a notable charisma focus that grants a good amount of bonus feats. The starknive also has a suboptimal range.
One more thing I'd like to add: Automatic Bonus Progression, an optional subsystem that makes the game way better and that every GM should use, makes DSS somewhat better, as you can dumb strength and wear Muleback Chords for carrying capacity, it also makes Blinkback Belt a more enticing option.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Eldritch Scion Magus is a notable downgrade, and the standard Shocking Grasp playstyle benefits a lot from using a high crit range weapon, something a DSS user loses out on.
Come now, if you still think the standard/only way to play a Magus is to spam Shocking Grasp all day, then you're at least twenty sourcebooks out of date. Having an additional attack each round (from spell combat) is one of the better things you can do with cha-to-hit, and action economy wins combats.
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Regarding Paladin, it doesn't work since you usually need to have alignment within one step of the deity.
Nothing says so. Read it up if you don't believe me.
It combos well with Startoss Style given how Studied Combat is a move action and only until the next hit.
First, you can make it a swift action with the Quick Study talent. Second, Studied Combat "lasts for a number of rounds equal to [the Investigator's] Intelligence modifier", unless you deliberately make the choice to activate Studied Strike.
The archetype is indeed pretty nice, and DSS certainly makes sense for it. It also makes losing access to Mutagen a non-bother. The archetyope doesn't fit what the OP wanted, though.
2nd - Rapid Shot
4th - Returning Weapon (Free returning)
Returning Weapon returns the weapon "as if it had the returning property", which in turn says the weapon "returns to the thrower just before the creature’s next turn". It doesn't help you use Rapid Shot (or any full attack) at all. Which is one of the biggest obstacles for thrown builds.
The same problem also applies to Star Watcher's Returning Star talent, by the way. Startoss Style sidesteps the issue, but if you rely on just that, you'll have a hard time against single enemies (or if you otherwise want to focus on one enemy). That can work, or might not, depending on party and campaign.
Come now, if you still think the standard/only way to play a Magus is to spam Shocking Grasp all day, then you're at least twenty sourcebooks out of date.
I'm pretty sure it's still the most common Magus build, which makes it the standard. I didn't say anything about it being the only build, please don't put words into my mouth.
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To get Divine Fighting Technique you have to be within one step of the deity.
Like I said before, if you want to correct people, get your facts straight first. In this case it's especially cringeworthy, as a simple look at either the books or the known online recources would have told you how erroneous you are.
There are two versions of the Divine Fighting Technique feat, neither one has "within one step of the deity" as the prereq. The version from Weapon Master's Handbook has "Same alignment as chosen deity." as a prereq, but Desna's Shooting Star is from the later version in Divine Anthology, which has the prereq of "Must worship a single patron deity that has an established divine fighting technique." There is nothing that prevents a Paladin from doing just that.
Why wouldn't that archetype work? Because of Int?
What part of the OP's "Looking to build an extremely SAD character focusing on Charisma" do you not understand?
That's what Vital Strike is for
I get that you play in probably the most low powered game of anyone on these boards, but claiming that +1d4 non-critable damage once per round at 8th+level makes the character not drastically suffer in damage output when losing out on making additional attacks is ridiculous even for you.
And sure, you can throw multiple starknives, but you can't afford enchanting them all, so your attack (and damage) roll suffers, and you'll face problems with damage reduction. Returning also can't work for more then two weapons, and doing so would shut down Startoss Style on the first attack of any subsequent turns, since you'd be "carrying a weapon or a shield in your off hand".
The way you wrote it seemed to imply that shocking grasp crit build was the only way make a good magus.
If people don't know the meaning of the word "standard", that's not on me.
"adjective: standard
used or accepted as normal or average."
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When it comes to which deities a paladin can worship, it is implied that only LN, LG, and LG deities are appropriate.
Specifically, the 'not required to be LG' archetype states: Source
Ultimate Intrigue pg. 69
Alignment: A gray paladin can be lawful good, lawful neutral, or neutral good, though she must still follow a lawful good, neutral good, or lawful neutral deity.
This alters the paladin’s alignment restrictions.
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While the actual Paladin rules don't state this restriction, it should be noted that it doesn't really mention deities, gods, or worship at all:
Source
PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 60
Divine Bond (Sp): Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god. This bond can take one of two forms. Once the form is chosen, it cannot be changed.
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Holy Champion (Su): At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god. Her DR increases to 10/evil. Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment, using her paladin level as the caster level (her weapon and holy symbol automatically count as objects that the subject hates). After the banishment effect and the damage from the attack is resolved, the smite immediately ends. In addition, whenever she channels positive energy or uses lay on hands to heal a creature, she heals the maximum possible amount.
...
That's it: Zero uses of the words 'Deity' and 'Worship', and just two uses of the word 'god' in what is basically 'fluff' text. Technically speaking, Rovagug is just as valid for Paladin worship as Desna is...
Personally, I find the idea of a 'must be Lawful Good' class that 'adhere to ironclad laws of morality and discipline' worshiping a chaotic deity of dreamers and luck to just be 'wrong'...
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Paladin Deities are another one of those items that fall into the "it's really supposed to work this way and everyone should know that, but we never actually put it in a concrete form you can easily point to."
You can find several Paizo employees (SKR comes to mind) mentioning how James Jacobs retconned out of existence the Paladins of Asmodeus mentioned in an early AP. Because paladins of LE deities shouldn't exist. Inner Sea Gods says "not all deities have paladins, but for those who do, here's the paladin codes for them." (Hint: they are all LG, LN, or NG.)
Faiths of Purity lists all the good gods and what classes worship them. For each of the CG gods it's some variation of "paladins cannot tolerate the Chaotic nature" but falls just short of outright saying "therefore there are no paladins of this deity."
PFS - and yes, PFS is not "the rules for everyone" - explicitly stated that regardless of class, if your character worships a deity you have to be within one step of the deity's alignment. For precisely the same reason that PFS has a Campaign Clarifications document that is 25 pages long. Because no one else was making those clarifications/errata/FAQ and people were exploiting.
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about paladin following a god.
i think the major issue is that clerics have to be within one step on the alignment table away from their chosen god's alignment ('Alignment: A cleric's alignment must be within one step of her deity's, along either the law/chaos axis or the good/evil axis'). and most would consider a paladin in an even tighter spot then clerics what with having to be LG and following stricter code of conduct.
so anything the cleric of a god can't have within alignment restrictions shouldn't be allowed to paladins of same god.
after all paladin fall from stuff that normal clerics can brush off.
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Be a Tiefling with the #16 variant Tiefling ability that allows the use of Large weapons without penalty... with the Daemon-Spawn, Kyton-Spawn, or Rakshasa-Spawn heritage to avoid penalty to either Charisma or Intelligence. A large Starknife for a medium character is a one-handed weapon, and can now be a Blade Bound Arcanist's Black Blade. Arcanists generally have a decently high Charisma, as the DC's of their Exploits are dependent on it [Charisma].
The best part about it is that you're 9/9 spellcaster with a sentient Starknife. So you'll be okay. An Eldritch Scrapper Sorcerer with the Fey Bloodline could use Bloodline Feats for ranged $#!+ like PBS/Precise Shot, and Martial Flexibility for anything else... again, as a 9/9 spellcaster, the Starknife is really just there for show. Lol.
@Derklord:
Spell warrior is, for Skald Desnan shooting star builds, arguably an overall improvement over Wyrm Singer because it does benefit self buffing marital spell casters, and because imho you want to twf with starknifes, either thrown or not thrown, and spell warrior adds a lot of extra d6s to that.
The big drawback is losing spell kenning.
Skald is a fun class for this. Court Poet Skald's Insightful Contemplation adds a morale bonus to Charisma... which stacks with the bonus you get from your headband. Battle Scion gets combat feats. Regardless, Skalds have good use for Charisma and get Rage Powers, so you know what that means...
Take the Charging Hurler feat, and the Hurling Charge Rage Power... you can make two thrown attacks as part of a charge. Then take Rhino Charge, so you can ready a charge as a standard action. Two thrown attacks, with movement, as a standard action. Primalist Bloodragers can do this, too... Bloodragers can take Blooded Arcane Strike, and wear the Gloves of Arcane Striking so their Starknives do splash damage. Lol.