Cyclonic weapon vs Winds of Vengeance

[Secane]

A Cyclonic weapon can pierce through spells like Wind Wall or Flickle Winds, but can it get through the protections of the Level 9 spell Winds of Vengeance?

Cyclonic Weapon:

This special ability can be placed only on ranged weapons or ammunition. A cyclonic weapon or piece of ammunition feels as though it were surrounded by gentle winds pulling it in all directions. When the wielder makes a ranged attack with a cyclonic weapon, a sheath of whirling air surrounds the weapon or the ammunition fired and prevents the attack from being impaired by wind, water, and other liquid or gaseous environmental factors.

Wings of Vengeance:

You surround yourself with a buffeting shroud of supernatural, tornado-force winds. These winds grant you a fly speed of 60 feet with perfect maneuverability. Neither your armor nor your load affects this fly speed. The winds shield you from any other wind effects, and form a shell of breathable air around you, allowing you to fly and breathe underwater or in outer space. Ranged weapons (including giant-thrown boulders, siege weapon projectiles, and other massive ranged weapons) passing through the winds are deflected by the winds and automatically miss you. Gases and most gaseous breath weapons cannot pass though the winds.

In addition, when a creature hits you with a melee attack, you can shape your winds so they lash out at that creature as an immediate action. The creature must make a Fortitude saving throw or take 5d8 points of bludgeoning damage and be knocked prone (if on the ground). On a failed save, Huge flying creatures are checked and Large-sized or smaller flying creatures are blown away instead of knocked prone. On a successful save, the damage is halved and the creature is not knocked prone (or checked or blown away).

[Diego Rossi]

"prevents the attack from being impaired by wind, water, and other liquid or gaseous environmental factors."

I really hate descriptions that are great as fluff and short in the rule department.

As written it passes only winds that are environmental factors, not magical effects. So the wind from a Control weather spell will not affect the arrow, but the wind from a spell that directly manipulates the air or creates the winds will work, Wind wall and Fickle winds included.

That interpretation would make it very underwhelming for a +2 power.

If we read it as it was meant to be:
"prevents the attack from being impaired by wind, water, or other liquid or gaseous environmental factors." it would bypass any wind effect, Wings of Vengeance included. But we need to change the RAW text for that.

Take your pick.

[VoodistMonk]

Winds of Vengeance creates wind... Cyclonic bypasses wind. Winds of Vengeance even repeatedly refers to its effects as wind. Magical or not, it's just wind... wind that Cyclonic bypasses/ignores... regardless of it being a 9th-level spell, it's still just wind.

[Diego Rossi]

"Wind ... and other ... environmental factors."

And is a conjunction, so it is a single continuous phrase. "Wind" is an example of the "gaseous environmental" effects.

environmental
/ɪnvʌɪrənˈmɛnt(ə)l,ɛnvʌɪrənˈmɛnt(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: environmental

1.
relating to the natural world and the impact of human activity on its condition.
"acid rain may have caused major environmental damage"
aiming or designed to promote the protection of the natural world.
"environmental tourism"
2.
relating to or arising from a person's surroundings.
"environmental noise"

Magical wind is part of the natural world? No.
It is related to a person's surroundings? I don't think so. It isn't the room or the people around him that create it.

[zza ni]

it's a game balance issue.

i would let the cyclonic weapon bypass most wind\air barriers -except wind of vengeance.

since the weapon is named "Cyclonic Weapon" and has a "a sheath of whirling air surround" while the winds of vengeance also has this to say "..The winds shield you from any other wind effects..Ranged weapons (including giant-thrown boulders, siege weapon projectiles, and other massive ranged weapons) passing through the winds are deflected by the winds and automatically miss you.."
it's true that the wind that sheath the weapon is not an attack on it's own. but for me it makes the ranged attack enough of a wind effect to count.
winds of vengeance negate both wind effects and ranged weapons (even massive ones like boulders). the cyclonic weapon is a harmful ranged attack surrounded by wind .i think it should count as both and be negated.

it's also kinda like the whole darkness vs light spells you should let the higher level one counter the lower one.

[Diego Rossi]

zza ni wrote:

it's a game balance issue.

I fully agree. An effect that only bypass purely environmental effects that cost a +2 is overpriced.

The effect will be very powerful in an undersea series of adventures, but it requires a very specific environment and "outdoor" (undersea) adventures, not a typical dungeon. Generally, PCs don't have to fight in the pouring rain, or during a wind storm, they will fight creatures that use magic or SU powers to locally manipulate wind and water.
Even in the right kind of adventures, visibility is heavily impacted by rain, water, and even by wind laden with dust, so the benefit of the ability is somewhat limited.
In RL it would be worth a lot, but most adventures environment make it less interesting.

So the more balanced interpretation is that it bypasses any wind effect. And that includes Winds of Vengeance.

[zza ni]

Diego Rossi wrote:

zza ni wrote:

it's a game balance issue.

I fully agree. An effect that only bypass purely environmental effects that cost a +2 is overpriced.

...

So the more balanced interpretation is that it bypasses any wind effect. And that includes Winds of Vengeance.

ahh but you see, the "wind effect" you quoted is from the winds of vengeance info.

what we have here is the classic unbreakable shield vs penetrating all spear. ( i believe the story is the source of the Chinese word for paradox, but i might be wrong)

the weapon has : " a sheath of whirling air surrounds the weapon or the ammunition fired and prevents the attack from being impaired by wind, water, and other liquid or gaseous.. factor"
(yes a skipped a badly used word here. will do the same common sense re-wording on the next one)

while the spell say: " The winds shield you from any other wind effects (not only harmfull)..Ranged weapons..etc"

they both have a "it uses air/wind to negate wind/air effects" in some way or another.
i merely said that a 9th level spell should trump Vs a +2 weapon enchantment, if they confront each other with their wind force.

[Temperans]

A compromise is to base it on the caster level of the cyclonic weapon. This also encourages adding more enchantments to it.

But yeah 9th level spells are hard to beat, specially by low level magic. But not impossible as seen by freedom of movement, death ward, etc.

[Kaouse]

zza ni wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

zza ni wrote:

it's a game balance issue.

I fully agree. An effect that only bypass purely environmental effects that cost a +2 is overpriced.

...

So the more balanced interpretation is that it bypasses any wind effect. And that includes Winds of Vengeance.

ahh but you see, the "wind effect" you quoted is from the winds of vengeance info.

what we have here is the classic unbreakable shield vs penetrating all spear. ( i believe the story is the source of the Chinese word for paradox, but i might be wrong)

the weapon has : " a sheath of whirling air surrounds the weapon or the ammunition fired and prevents the attack from being impaired by wind, water, and other liquid or gaseous.. factor"
(yes a skipped a badly used word here. will do the same common sense re-wording on the next one)

while the spell say: " The winds shield you from any other wind effects (not only harmfull)..Ranged weapons..etc"

they both have a "it uses air/wind to negate wind/air effects" in some way or another.
i merely said that a 9th level spell should trump Vs a +2 weapon enchantment, if they confront each other with their wind force.

A "sheath of whirling air" is not a "wind effect."

Nowhere in Cyclonic is wind mentioned other than how the arrow feels.

With this in mind, I would rule that Winds of Vengance's ability to protect vs wind effects does not protect vs Cyclonic. As a result, Cyclonic bypasses Winds of Vengance's protection vs ranged weapons.

[zza ni]

Kaouse wrote:

zza ni wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

zza ni wrote:

it's a game balance issue.

I fully agree. An effect that only bypass purely environmental effects that cost a +2 is overpriced.

...

So the more balanced interpretation is that it bypasses any wind effect. And that includes Winds of Vengeance.

ahh but you see, the "wind effect" you quoted is from the winds of vengeance info.

what we have here is the classic unbreakable shield vs penetrating all spear. ( i believe the story is the source of the Chinese word for paradox, but i might be wrong)

the weapon has : " a sheath of whirling air surrounds the weapon or the ammunition fired and prevents the attack from being impaired by wind, water, and other liquid or gaseous.. factor"
(yes a skipped a badly used word here. will do the same common sense re-wording on the next one)

while the spell say: " The winds shield you from any other wind effects (not only harmfull)..Ranged weapons..etc"

they both have a "it uses air/wind to negate wind/air effects" in some way or another.
i merely said that a 9th level spell should trump Vs a +2 weapon enchantment, if they confront each other with their wind force.

A "sheath of whirling air" is not a "wind effect."

Nowhere in Cyclonic is wind mentioned other than how the arrow feels.

With this in mind, I would rule that Winds of Vengance's ability to protect vs wind effects does not protect vs Cyclonic. As a result, Cyclonic bypasses Winds of Vengance's protection vs ranged weapons.

2 things you need to consider:

1.
there is very little to go by with wind effect rule wise unless your speaking of spell with the wind descriptor. sine the spell is not only spell limited, you need to have a way to include other wind effects in, and there is no game term definition to one. and since i think most any one that you ask "what would you call 'air that moves'? " the answer would be 'wind'. so yea, "whirling air" unless you have a better game defined term should definitely be called wind.

2.
if you go with what the words say exactly and not the spirit of the words as i did. then the weapon ability, as Diego pointed out, only work against "purely environmental effects" which the spell is not. the spirit of the words as i mentioned above is that both ability and spell create a wind\moving air effect (which is another way to say wind) that negate other such abilities it interact with. whether it's sheath of whirling air or other way to say it.

so you gota pick one of the two. if you go by strict wording of the spell and abilities. the ability doesn't work against hte spell as it's not "purely environmental effects". if you use the spirit of the words then the spell still work as the spirit of the ability words does mention (as i said above) 'whirling air' which again anyone who you ask would say should count as wind. you can't pick the spirit of the words on one part and the strict words on the other...