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It makes good sense to me that a deity, archdevil, psychopomp usher, and the like can call grant divine spells to followers, being divine beings themselves, but how does that work for other powers? The Eldest (being fey) and the Elemental Lords can all have Clerics sworn to them, and despite being primal beings themselves, the magic they grant is divine. Any thoughts?
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I mean, divine power is not "being a god" it's "the confluence of Vital and Spiritual Essence"; remember Divine Sorcs and Oracles get divine spellcasting without a God involved. It's conceivable that this is the only kind of magic that can safely flow from a "massively powerful source" to a much weaker target (like a mortal.)
Like if Nethys could grant arcane spellcasting to his Clerics, he absolutely would, but he can't since that's not how magic works. Wizards can serve Nethys like Druids can serve Gozreh, but in that case their arcane magic or primal magic does not come from their deity. If some being with absolutely no magic whatsoever becomes a deity (imagine an unarchetyped human fighter passing the test of the Starstone) they would grant divine spells and not no-spells. So I don't think it's weird that you get divine spells from a Primal being or an Occult being or an Arcane being- divine spells are just the kind you can get from something else.
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If a creature grants spells to clerics, then it's divine by definition—either a deity, a demigod (as in the case of the Eldest and the elemental lords), or a quasi-deity (as in the case of things like mythic characters who can grant divine spells or things like norns or deep one elders). That's more about how clerics work than anything else, though.
And Nethys is a god of magic, and that includes all types of magic—arcane, primal, occult, and divine. His clerics cast divine spells, but he has wizards and bards and even druids who worship him as well.
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It sounds like the question is, does the magic itself come from the god/fiend/other, or are they merely hooking their clerics up and channelling it from somewhere else, filtered through their domains? As I understand, while the Pathfinder system allows for secular clerics to draw power, Golarion itself is not a place that happens - you need some otherworldly power to do the magic, whether it be a Devil Prince, or an Iblydan Hero-God. But does that necessarily mean they are the originator of that power? Are they specifically granting from an internal reservoir?
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That’s the main thrust of my question - where is the divine magic coming from, if the being in question granting it is an exceptionally strong elemental, fey, or shadow creature?
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I went to read Secrets of Magic, see what it has to say on the matter. It has some interesting stuff.
According to Chapter 1 of Principals of Elementary Thaumaturgy, 7th Ed. (Acadamae, 4720) by Toff Ornelos, The two major theories on magic are the Tools of Creation (also known as Nexian Understanding) and the Soil and Path. Tools of Creation posits that magic is an all-encompassing background energy created at the start of the universe by whatever forces were responsible for creation, that it exists ambiently around us but, importantly, in finite amounts. Every time a spellcaster casts a spell they are using up a finite resource. Every spell that is "invented" is merely finding the spell that already existed when the universe was created. Soil and Path claims rather that magic is the living soul of the universe, and spellcasting is asking (or forcing) the universe to change according to your needs. Soil and Path also posits that because of this, magic is infinite and bound only by the caster's creativity. However, a footnote of the in-universe excerpt claims that "clerical and druidic spellcasters mediate the spells via the gods or non-sapient natural forces." In other words, as I speculated earlier, that magic is separate from the gods and that the gods are only the way clerics are able to connect to it rather than the source.
However, it also adds that even clerics of Nethys aren't united on this. According to The Codices of The Ten Doors by Abazul of Osirion, Third Head Priest of the Temple, clerics are just the conduit Nethys works through, every spell a thought of the god manifested. Nethys isn't just a source of magic, he is the source of all magic. The Siblings of the All-Seeing Eye agree that Nethys is magic itself, but believe he grants it to the worthy. To learn more magic, to achieve the higher tiers, is to become closer to Nethys and better know His mind, whether that's what you think you're doing when you start that process or not. Nethys doesn't care if you're consciously worshipping him or not, only that you allow Him to work through you. According to Master Silkas, however, Nethys grants magic to everyone, regardless of whether they worship him or not. Clerics are limited to a certain amount of spells only because their god throttles back access until they deem them worthy or able to wield more and higher levels. The gods jealously guard the ability to cast unlimited magic because that's their entire deal - if everyone could do it, it would undermine their divinity.
That last point is interesting. Brennan Lee Mulligan in Exandria Unlimited: Calamity also posited that gods deliberately throttle back access to higher magic, not out of judgement but out of safety - too much magic dumped all at once has nasty side-effects - a brief and strong burst of power, but the equivalent of magical radiation poisoning in a body unready for it. I could see that being the limit for sorcerers and oracles, needing to acclimate to it over time and with experience. But whatever the case, it seems Secrets of Magic strongly suggests that gods only serve as an intermediary force, not as a direct source. Like a celestial switchboard. Arcane casters have to figure things out themselves, do the hard work and learn the equations, and druids bypass gods entirely and tap into the source directly through natural energies, both of them having to figure things out to gain in power. But clerics are being hooked up to it by someone else as a reward for their devotion.
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I really think it comes from the caster, or rather from their style, ie how they practice magic, aka the Essences.
Those who affect the material with method access Arcane magic. Those who affect the intangible with method are Occult casters. Those who affect the material through faith do Primal magic, while those who affect the intangible with faith are Divine casters.
What is interesting is that your choice of what you affect with your magic and how you do it put such strong constraints on the spells you cast.
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I see Divine Magic as being part of the make up of the Universe similar to Arcane, Primal, and Occult. However, unlike the other kinds of magic, Divine magic is extremely difficult to access safely unless you have a being that can filter that magic.
While many of the beings that can filter divine magic undergo apotheosis into purely divine beings or are somewhere in that process, this isn't a requirement. So while most outer planar Gods/Demigods/Quasi-deities are purely divine beings (or on that journey), some inner planar Demigods/Quasi-deities have achieved apotheosis without becoming Divine beings.
So although the Eldest are Primal beings their apotheosis still allows them to access and safely distribute Divine Magic. This is perhaps their greatest trick, as they have gained access to divine magic without needing to become divine beings like most Gods.
My guess is that the Elemental Lords straddle the line, having about as much Divine apotheosis of a Quasi-deity. They remain Primal beings but have grabbed just enough divine essence to shape and distribute divine magic.
The Oracle's curse is possibly a pretty good example of the dangers of accessing Divine magic without a filter. My guess is that even Oracle's of a specific Deity are getting Divine magic that is only lightly filtered at best.
Anyway, that's how it works in my head.
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That’s the main thrust of my question - where is the divine magic coming from, if the being in question granting it is an exceptionally strong elemental, fey, or shadow creature?
Divine magic comes from faith. Be that faith in a deity or a religion like the Green Fatih or a philosophy or in your ancestors or whatever.
The reason clerics loose their spells when their deity dies isn't because the source of their magic died, but because their faith in that deity was shattered. You can play a divine caster who worships a dead deity and still cast spells (such as an oracle or a sorcerer or a witch, etc.), but clerics work differently.
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So is it possible for a deity to cease to exist, but their clerics still get spells simply because they doggedly refuse to admit the possibility that their deity is gone? Like is "Ranalc's Clerics still get spells" not actually evidence he's still around?
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It sounds like there is by necessity a certain amount of complex thaumatology in play. If I'm understanding correctly, clerics depend to some degree on their relationship with their god such that, even if their god died without their knowledge, they'd still know, even if their faith held strong. Likewise a cleric's access to magic seems to depend on their deitiy's approval. The cleric's spells are powered by their own faith in their god, but even if they still believe they're doing their god's will, it's possible to fall out of alignment with their God such that they lose their power.
It strikes me that for a cleric, 'having faith in their deity' is a touch more intimately involved than simply believing they're still there. But then maybe I'm off base, divine magic is the tradition I have the least grasp on presently.
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Is it possible to continue to have faith in a god who's dead? For an example, a cleric who worships Aroden, knowing he's dead and not there anymore, but who nevertheless draws strength from faith in his achievements, message and teachings? Or is the deity being alive considered an important part of the "having faith in" part?
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That’s the main thrust of my question - where is the divine magic coming from, if the being in question granting it is an exceptionally strong elemental, fey, or shadow creature?Divine magic comes from faith. Be that faith in a deity or a religion like the Green Fatih or a philosophy or in your ancestors or whatever.
The reason clerics loose their spells when their deity dies isn't because the source of their magic died, but because their faith in that deity was shattered. You can play a divine caster who worships a dead deity and still cast spells (such as an oracle or a sorcerer or a witch, etc.), but clerics work differently.
But it's not merely about faith, or else Razmir would be flush with Clerics. Where's the line of things whose faith grants spells?
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I think it's "Faith + Something sufficiently powerful". Razmir doesn't have clerics because he's not powerful enough rather than "he doesn't have committed followers". Meanwhile Baba Yaga probably is powerful enough for apotheosis if she felt like it, but nobody in their right mind would think "worshiping Baba Yaga" is wise (least of all her.)
The sticky one is that an Oracle can get spells because of their faith in like "the concept of fire" because "the concept of fire" is extremely powerful. But if someone has incredible faith in the natural world, but not Gozreh, a nature god, or any kind of Druidic Order can they get spells? Do we need a nature oriented oracle or does this step on the toes of druids?
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But it's not merely about faith, or else Razmir would be flush with Clerics. Where's the line of things whose faith grants spells?That’s the main thrust of my question - where is the divine magic coming from, if the being in question granting it is an exceptionally strong elemental, fey, or shadow creature?Divine magic comes from faith. Be that faith in a deity or a religion like the Green Fatih or a philosophy or in your ancestors or whatever.
The reason clerics loose their spells when their deity dies isn't because the source of their magic died, but because their faith in that deity was shattered. You can play a divine caster who worships a dead deity and still cast spells (such as an oracle or a sorcerer or a witch, etc.), but clerics work differently.
It's a confusing topic, alas, made more so in that I've been burned by others for taking a specific stance in the past, since everyone seems to have a different preference when it comes to how faith and divine magic works.
So here's how I see it in my head, and in games I run. Whether or not anyone wants to run with this in their game or do something different is up to them.
Clerics cast divine spells granted to them by a divinity. Divnities come in 3 categories: deity (aka god/goddess; something beyond the rules that interacts with the game world however the story wants), demigod (an entity that has a stat block and is somewhere in the band of level 26 to the cap of level 30), or quasi-deity (almost always level 25 or lower, but with no lower limit, but also has a stat block and follows the rules). A cleric has to pick one of those deities in order to do their thing; that's one of the defining roles of a cleric. A cleric who worships a pantheon needs to decide which deity in that pantheon grants them their spells. It's the cleric's faith that allows them to cast the spells, but its the divinity that gives them those powers. So if the divinity isn't able to do so (or chooses not to), the cleric can't cast divine spells.
There's a lot of folks who really want clerics who don't worship deities, or get spells from things that aren't divinities, or think they're worshiping one god but in fact are being tricked and are granted their spells by a different god, or worship a dead deity and still get spells. To me, those aren't clerics. Those are sorcerers or witches or oracles or any other class; if they want to trick the world and say they're clerics, they'd better have skill at Deception.
I really hope that doesn't annoy or frustrate or trigger anyone. Again, that's how I see it, how I run my games, and are the assumptions I make when I create or develop content for Pathfinder. I'm not the only person who decides what Pathfinder is, though.
I almost didn't post this because I'm afraid it'll cause backlash from other employees or customers, but again... this is my take, not me telling anyone what their take should be.
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I think it's "Faith + Something sufficiently powerful". Razmir doesn't have clerics because he's not powerful enough rather than "he doesn't have committed followers". Meanwhile Baba Yaga probably is powerful enough for apotheosis if she felt like it, but nobody in their right mind would think "worshiping Baba Yaga" is wise (least of all her.)
Objection, there are people who worship Rovagug. Clearly, no matter how wise the cleric, there are some ideas which mere wisdom can't talk you out of. After all, being wise doesn't mean being correct. Also I believe it has been stated in the Reign of Winter that Baba could grant spells to cleric, but she doesn't want to bother with all the prayers she'd be opening herself up to.
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Also while I'm here, thank you muchly to James Jacobs for this insight into at least some of the thinking that goes into the metaphysics which go into the game world. As much as I'd be interested in a class which supports non-theistic faiths, such as the much discussed Shaman, I can see how there are good reasons to distinguish such a class from those who establish a direct link with a god to grant them the powers which they fuel through the power of their own faith.
It seems like it would be possible to keep clerics strictly theistic while working in divine casters who operate without a deity. There are a few options like this already but it seems like there is a good niche to fill that should neither tread on the toes of clerics having gods nor upset people vying for divine power from other faiths.
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Yeah, I'm an outspoken advocate for "non-theistic Champions" but I'm cool with the "Clerics are the God Class". I just want for faiths that aren't about "worshiping one or more gods" to get the same sort of toys that "worshiping one or more gods" classes get. Since if "I worship Desna" can get you all sorts of cool stuff but "I honor the spirits in all things" doesn't get anything close to that, then this sort of seems like an authorial endorsement of "worshiping Desna is more correct than being an animist" which is obviously not something we want to say.
The Oracle and a hypothetical Shaman class handle a lot of what I would want from the "Cleric analogue" for people who worship differently, but there's still no "martial advocate" analogous to the Champion. Like a Monk's Ki Spells can be divine, so I don't know why there can't be an opportunity to play an Animist Liberator or a Pantheist Redeemer or a Shamanistic Paladin.
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Yeah, I'm happy to let Clerics be the "god Class," it just makes me want for a Shaman more.
Appreciate the replies, James! I don't think you need to worry about offense here.
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Yeah, I've always been of the opinion that if you want a class that does most of what a Cleric does, in mostly the same way, but neither want nor need a god to worship, that's pretty much what the Druid is for. And their proliferation and tolerance in Rahadoum seems to back that up.
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The reason why Baba Yaga doesn't grant spells is easy. While she is a mythic character, she did not get the power to grant power to her followers. She also really doesn't need it given she has her dealings with witches.
Baba Yaga has developed a total intolerance to people asking her to do things on their behalf.
It has been stated to be the major reason why she does not want to become a goddess people pray to for miracles
Also James, thats always how I imagined it works. It always felt weird that people wanted to get around clerics needing a deity to grant them their spells.
A given deity shackles you to alignment, anathema, favored weapon and specific spells that might not fit the concept the player had for their Cleric, even when the portfolio fits.
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Is it possible to continue to have faith in a god who's dead? For an example, a cleric who worships Aroden, knowing he's dead and not there anymore, but who nevertheless draws strength from faith in his achievements, message and teachings? Or is the deity being alive considered an important part of the "having faith in" part?
Ydersius died. He still has Clerics and grants spells IIRC.
To say nothing of Urgathoa.
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Fair point, whatever happened to Aroden is more permanent than death. Granted I believe Ydersius was only slain by a mortal hero so perhaps that is the distinction. Ydersius, though 'dead' is clearly still an active force in the multiverse, albeit as a headless body and decapitated head.
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Is it possible to continue to have faith in a god who's dead? For an example, a cleric who worships Aroden, knowing he's dead and not there anymore, but who nevertheless draws strength from faith in his achievements, message and teachings? Or is the deity being alive considered an important part of the "having faith in" part?Ydersius died. He still has Clerics and grants spells IIRC.
To say nothing of Urgathoa.
Ydersius was beheaded and defeated, but he was not killed. He became aimless and directionless and lost his agencey and ability to plot and think and is just a brutish force of power without direction, but he's not dead. One of the main goals of his priesthood is to find his skull and put it back on his head so he'll get his mind back, but until then, he's still alive. Just headless and mindless.
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Ydersius was grievously wounded and massively diminished, but not slain. Count Ranalc has been stuffed in a very nice box for over 4,000 years. The Forsaken have been gone for even longer than that, but Owb Prophets still grain their spells and wield their favored weapons. Until you are all the way dead - which clearly takes more than a 'fatal' wound, as Ydersius shows - you can still grant spells.
Contrast with Aroden, Acavna, and Amaznen, who aren't empowering any mortal agents at this point.
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It's possibly that in order to be a God and Die-For-Sure you have to be an Azlanti.
Like who else is Divine and Dead? Curchanus and Ihys are the only non-Azlanti deities who have died I am aware of, and it's possible that Ihys never existed at all.
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It's possibly that in order to be a God and Die-For-Sure you have to be an Azlanti.
Like who else is Divine and Dead? Curchanus and Ihys are the only non-Azlanti deities who have died I am aware of, and it's possible that Ihys never existed at all.
There’s quite a few dead Demon Lords?
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Demon Lords are demigods though, that's why "Lamashtu became a full deity by killing Curchanus" is a thing- she was already a Demon Lord before that. Demigods are things that can have stat blocks, so you can stack their corpses like cordwood if you're powerful enough.
Aroden, Acavna, Amaznen, Curchanus, and Ihys are the only full Gods we know who have died, unless I'm missing some (which is possible) and I'm like 50% convinced that Ihys is someone that Asmodeus just made up for his reasons.
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Demon Lords are demigods though, that's why "Lamashtu became a full deity by killing Curchanus" is a thing- she was already a Demon Lord before that. Demigods are things that can have stat blocks, so you can stack their corpses like cordwood if you're powerful enough.
Aroden, Acavna, Amaznen, Curchanus, and Ihys are the only full Gods we know who have died, unless I'm missing some (which is possible) and I'm like 50% convinced that Ihys is someone that Asmodeus just made up for his reasons.
I see no reason to believe Ihys wasn’t real; we have non-Asmodean sources for him.
The Azlanti bear the brunt of the dead gods because they’re The Big Dead Empire for the Inner Sea in a lot of ways. There’s almost certainly dead Arcadian and Casmar deities, given the age of mortal populations there - especially imagining Vudra’s many divinities, there’s bound to have been bloodshed. Tsukiyo died at Fumeiyoshi’s hands, but was restored by the intervention of a god of medicine. Osiris, likewise, was resurrected, but at one point dead. I’m pretty sure there’s something left of Acavna, whispering to the Mordant Spire elves…
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I'm sad that you are feeling threatened about speaking your take on metaphysics on the forum though ^_^; I'm sorry about toxicity you have to deal with
But yeah, I see divine magic being powered by faith and your class being explanation of how specifically that faith works. Clerics get powers from divinities with their faith, sorcerers and oracles get it through innate connection to sources of divine power(like celestials and demons are basically living concepts right? So sorcerer gets divine faith powers from blood connected to materialized concept while oracles are connected to mysterious source of power) and witches get it through faiths in mysterious mystic patron teachings. That seems to match pretty well with how JJ explained it, its not that you can't get divine magic through being extremely egotistic in your own divinity, its that that caster is different type of caster than cleric.
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Ydersius was grievously wounded and massively diminished, but not slain. Count Ranalc has been stuffed in a very nice box for over 4,000 years. The Forsaken have been gone for even longer than that, but Owb Prophets still grain their spells and wield their favored weapons. Until you are all the way dead - which clearly takes more than a 'fatal' wound, as Ydersius shows - you can still grant spells.
Contrast with Aroden, Acavna, and Amaznen, who aren't empowering any mortal agents at this point.
I think the key moment is being judged by Pharasma.
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I think the key moment is being judged by Pharasma.
Which wouldn't explain Urgathoa. Her deal is that she very explicitly wasn't judged by Pharasma, she was the first who rejected the cycle of death and became the first undead. That's how she ascended.
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I think the key moment is being judged by Pharasma.Which wouldn't explain Urgathoa. Her deal is that she very explicitly wasn't judged by Pharasma, she was the first who rejected the cycle of death and became the first undead. That's how she ascended.
If I understand the Raven Black correctly, this explicitly is the explanation for Urgathoa in this case--not being judged by Pharasma is what separates her from the actually-dead-and-not-granting-spells gods like Aroden. That seems to line up perfectly with other gods who are not dead and can grant spells.
(Though for my money I thought it a little weird that the above discussion was treating Urgathoa as a 'dead god' exception. It feels rather clear to me she's an undead god, and iirc she's not the only one. I don't know Osiris' exact place in the lore but he's another good candidate for died and returned deity.
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Urgathoa apparently managed to reject Pharasma's judgement
My suspicion is that this happened because Pharasma allowed it to happen, because she was aware of Urgathoa's destiny. Tensions have just flared up of late because Pharasma's a lot less omniscient than she used to be.
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I don't know Osiris' exact place in the lore but he's another good candidate for died and returned deity.
I wouldn't count Osiris. The real world Osiris died, was resurrected, then died again, passing into the afterlife to become its ruler. That very obviously doesn't jibe well with Pharasma being the one who fills that role, though for my Mummy's Mask game I've come to an...accomodation. Empty Graves seems to leave him being resurrected by Isis, not mentioning his role as judge (but not excluding it either). But he's very definitely not dead or undead.
As far as I can recall, the only other undead god is Arazni, the former lich-queen of Geb, who started as a Herald of Aroden after dying and being judged by Pharasma to become an Astral Deva, then being killed by Tar-Baphon then raised as a lich by Geb before finally breaking free. Presumably she once had the equivalent power of an Empyreal Lord, and has now reclaimed that power once again. But in that case, Arazni is taking back a power she already had rather than a new apotheosis.
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I don't know Osiris' exact place in the lore but he's another good candidate for died and returned deity.I wouldn't count Osiris. The real world Osiris died, was resurrected, then died again, passing into the afterlife to become its ruler. That very obviously doesn't jibe well with Pharasma being the one who fills that role, though for my Mummy's Mask game I've come to an...accomodation. Empty Graves seems to leave him being resurrected by Isis, not mentioning his role as judge (but not excluding it either). But he's very definitely not dead or undead.
You're right, I was misremembering something about the Egyptian Osiris' description. That said, there are a number of afterlife gods in the setting already. It would seem that while Pharasma is indeed the big deity of the afterlife, she is not the only one. Other deities like Osiris and Magrim are listed as deities of the afterlife/underworld. They are by no measure equal to Pharasma, but it seems like they work with her in matters revolving around the afterlife.
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Wanted to come back to this topic for a moment. I was reading a old article about ancient mythology/polytheism, in particular the section about the somewhat blurry line historically between 'small gods and big people'.
An important concept to understanding the perception of gods/divinity in at least Roman mythology is the power of 'numen'. That is to say, the ability to cause something to happen 'with a nod'. In the same way that a ruler might, 'with a nod' command forces, issue an edict, or call a festival, a god like Poseidon holds the power to command the tide with a nod, while the household deity has the same power to command, but with a much smaller scope.
The reason I bring this up even though TTRPG gods tend to be very different from historical ones is that this same concept could hold an analogy for the ability to grant divine spells. Being a god isn't necessarily about what you are (from powerful fey, eldritch aliens, archfiends and angels, and even mythic mortals) but whether you hold the numinous power to grant a cleric of sufficient faith the ability to wield magic in your name.
It's the cleric's own faith that powers the spells, but the god's 'nod' which allows that faith to take on the forms that they do.
Likewise, another important thing about this 'numen' in ancient religious thought: "It doesn't matter how it works, only that it does work". (Of course, this is why I fear I probably would never make it as a cleric myself, but it's an interesting exercise in perspective/immersion nevertheless!)
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This touches on divine magic, Why hasn't Ragathiel restored his own wing that was torn off by his father? He can grant true resurrection to his mortal followers which seems to be a more powerful spell than restoring his own divine essence. If it is something to do with his farther doing it why can't another god heal him?
Never let it be said that I am one who can resist an interesting digression from the topic. I feel like there are any number of reasons that Ragathiel either cannot or does not want to regrow the missing wing. My first thought is that he may not have any reason to regrow it--even if missing 1/6 wings hampers him in any way, it's possible he considers this a badge of pride or a memento of having rejected evil and turned to good. It could be he holds it as the cost of redemption.
On the other hand, it doesn't seem to be necessarily true that a god can cast all the spell that they grant to their followers. On the other hand, even if it is true, perhaps the wound is not so simply removed when it is itself created by a (presumably more powerful) deity or demigod. Even if the Regenerate spell should in theory restore the damaged wing, it doesn't mean that it always works as written.
Finally, as to why another god couldn't do it--this would suggest that the answer probably falls back on 'he doesn't want to remove the wound', since in theory there must be some deity powerful enough to reshape his very essence (with his permission), unless perhaps his is a unique wound that is, in some way, so fundamentally tied up with his identity that it simply cannot be restored by any means which does not essentially remake his identity wholesale. After all, creatures of spiritual essence no doubt have a complicated relationship with symbolism and identity with regard to their body-soul unit.
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I've always subscribed to the school of thought that the gods' physical manifestations aren't their true forms, but merely how mortals comprehend them. In the same way that Horus is not literally a man with a falcon's head, or Hathor is not literally a cow-headed woman, Ragathiel is not literally a five-winged angel, that's just how he manifests to our minds because we, and possibly reality itself, cannot understand his true higher-dimensional nature any other way. He could look human, he could look elven, he could look goblinoid to a goblin perceiver. But he can't heal the wing because it's a fundamental part of his essence and psyche that just looks like a missing wing to mortals, a representation of his extremely complicated connection to his father. The story that Dis Pater tore it off is just that, a story, that mortals tell to explain it, or may recount events that happened but represented a more fundamental act of violence that mortals saw as tearing a wing off. To quote Cicero's "On the Nature of the Gods":
We know, that of all living beings man is the best formed, and, as the gods belong to this number, they must have a human form. ... I do not mean to say that the gods have body and blood in them; but I say that they seem as if they had bodies with blood in them. . . , Epicurus, for whom hidden things were as tangible as if he had touched them with his finger, teaches us that gods are not generally visible, but that they are intelligible; that they are not bodies having a certain solidity . . . but that we can recognize them by their passing images; that as there are atoms enough in the infinite space to produce such images, these are produced before us . . . and make us realize what are these happy, immortal beings.
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My metatextual interpretation is that Gods are fundamentally creatures of "stories" (which is why they don't have rules, because you can't make a rule a story can't break.) To fundamentally change something about a god, like healing a wound, or change the nature of a being you have to fundamentally change the nature of a story of that God which may well be eons old.
Ragathiel can't heal his wing nor can Vildeis heal her blindness because these injuries are an integral part of how they became what they are today. In order for Ragathiel to heal the wing, there would need to be a more dominant narrative about "who Ragathiel is and what he's about" than the one in which he rebelled against his father (and his evil nature) and was maimed in the process.
Which is certainly a thing that's possible, look at how Nocticula shifted from "Queen of the Succubi" to "The Assassin of the Abyss" to "Patron of Outcasts." But this was something Nocticula was working on for a long long time, which each part building on the last. She grew powerful, then used that power to win respect, then leveraged power and respect to gain freedom.
Which is to say that Gods have significant freedom in their day to day activities, they can't simply overwrite "a story about them everybody knows" without a second, later story about them that is equally noteworthy. Gods possess narrative inertia.
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Excellent points, and I do tend to subscribe to the idea of a god's form being more than a little mutable, though in this case there is the minor caveat that Ragathiel is in fact only a powerful empyrean lord, which actually brings us back around to the original topic, if tangentially. It is possible, and I would even argue in favour of this, that becoming a demigod has opened him up to the influence of 'narrative inertia' (I like this term), but at least at one point he had a tangible, objective body in as much as any celestial or fiend have a specific and discreet form.
(On the other hand, the implications that spiritual bodies of quintessence seem to function so similarly to those of flesh and blood when it comes to many spells is fertile ground for speculation about the metaphysics in the Great Beyond)