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If they do get a Con-based damage booster, I really hope it's not just straight up Con to damage like people are saying. That would mean they start with +4 damage, which is incredibly high, but only go to +5 at level 10, +6 at level 17 and +7 at exactly level 20, which is absolutely awful scaling. It would make the Kineticist an early game monster and quite bad later on. And this is assuming you Apex Con, which is another -1 to hit.
If they do get a Con-based damage booster, I really hope it's not just straight up Con to damage like people are saying. That would mean they start with +4 damage, which is incredibly high, but only go to +5 at level 10, +6 at level 17 and +7 at exactly level 20, which is absolutely awful scaling. It would make the Kineticist an early game monster and quite bad later on. And this is assuming you Apex Con, which is another -1 to hit.
I agree. Con to damage is not the best damage fix. Attribute accuracy and damage boosters are relatively minor in the scheme of how a class plays. There are a couple of rough levels, but otherwise it doesn't matter as much as things like feats that give new activities.
"The Kineticist getting better at blasting hinges less on a Kineticist's increasing mastery of their element and more on 'buying better handwraps'."I mean, that's just a description of being a martial in PF2. You're entirely dependent on magic to make your attacks relevant as your level goes up. Replace Kineticist with Barbarian or Monk in that sentence and it holds up (albeit element takes on a more metaphorical meaning but that's splitting hairs).
It sucks but that's just the game Paizo wanted.
It feels like the Kineticist is sort of thematically splitting the difference between martials and casters. You want the relative simplicity of a martial in that you don't have to worry about resources or preparations you're just free to adapt to a given moment, but you want some of the thematic space of casters in that you can do battlefield control, AoE, etc.
So like a Magus gets better at Produce Flame by leveling up because their level carries an inherent "I got better at magic", but also wants runes for their weapon, it would be nice if the Kineticist were to somehow get better at their basic blasts by leveling up (because they got better at controlling their element), but they also want runes for their handwraps.
So like a Magus gets better at Produce Flame by leveling up because their level carries an inherent "I got better at magic", but also wants runes for their weapon, it would be nice if the Kineticist were to somehow get better at their basic blasts by leveling up (because they got better at controlling their element), but they also want runes for their handwraps.
The issue here is that produce flame itself doesn't get bonuses for runes. You either get runes or you get level-dependent damage boosts. Nothing gets both. Each attack picks one or the other.
"The Kineticist getting better at blasting hinges less on a Kineticist's increasing mastery of their element and more on 'buying better handwraps'."I mean, that's just a description of being a martial in PF2. You're entirely dependent on magic to make your attacks relevant as your level goes up. Replace Kineticist with Barbarian or Monk in that sentence and it holds up (albeit element takes on a more metaphorical meaning but that's splitting hairs).
It sucks but that's just the game Paizo wanted.
It feels like the Kineticist is sort of thematically splitting the difference between martials and casters. You want the relative simplicity of a martial in that you don't have to worry about resources or preparations you're just free to adapt to a given moment, but you want some of the thematic space of casters in that you can do battlefield control, AoE, etc.
So like a Magus gets better at Produce Flame by leveling up because their level carries an inherent "I got better at magic", but also wants runes for their weapon, it would be nice if the Kineticist were to somehow get better at their basic blasts by leveling up (because they got better at controlling their element), but they also want runes for their handwraps.
This is an interesting point and I hope the developers consider it, but the issue with the kineticist class as a whole is that it is all feats.
The class abilities they get access to either enable their feats, or else provide very situational benefits (with some weirdness around the universal gate because how is immunity or resistance to metal or wood going to work? and all universalists are going to want to walk around with metal or wood in hand unless they are in a very specific environment otherwise right? And all of this is an aside anyway). So pretty much nothing about a Kineticist gets much better without investing feats in it.Some of the damage issues could be fixed with class features, but I think the real question is what room is left for feats that focus on single target damage and where would they fit in?
I think people who really feel the damage situation of the class is subpar should be play testing the fusion blast option so that they can comment on the surveys about how that ability feels damage wise. It is our only real example of a single target damage ability.
Barrage blast and chain blast are fun to me, but I know a lot of people discount multi-target options outright.
I used arial boomerang a bit, and it was ok early on, but it is easier to get 3 or 4 targets with barrage blast and chain blast than it is with AoE attacks. I understand that a lot of folks scawf at the damage die of air, but the range and agile were good at low levels, and the range + shock rune was a lot of fun later on, because you crit pretty often when you get to use it optimally against a lot of lower level targets.
AoE damage on overlows is a little low for what they do, but if they added debuffing effects on successful saves as well, I feel like the difference between blasts and overflow burst effects would remain very significant.
I have not played around with horrid Ignition either.
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I used arial boomerang a bit, and it was ok early on, but it is easier to get 3 or 4 targets with barrage blast and chain blast than it is with AoE attacks. I understand that a lot of folks scawf at the damage die of air, but the range and agile were good at low levels, and the range + shock rune was a lot of fun later on, because you crit pretty often when you get to use it optimally against a lot of lower level targets.
AoE damage on overlows is a little low for what they do, but if they added debuffing effects on successful saves as well, I feel like the difference between blasts and overflow burst effects would remain very significant.
I have not played around with horrid Ignition either.
chain blast i get but barrage blast? like sure it is a free third attack but how often will that third -10 map attack actually manifest into damage?
. saying that they are only a couple points behind is implying that sneak attack, or fighter accuracy, or esoteric enhancment, or divse a stratagem, or hunters edge or rage or your choice of accuracy or damage booster that literally every other martial has only constitute "a couple points of damage"
I mean... They do only constitute a couple points of damage. Precision edge is 4.5 average damage once a round. Sneak attack is 3.5 damage that requires set up and can only be landed consistently at range with team work. Devise a Strategem is 3.5 at most once a round. Implement Empowerment is +2 damage, and Overdrive is roughly the same. Precise Strike is +2 damage. If have blasts +2 damage on every hit, they'd do comparable damage, especially with Agile.
You'd need to scale it with level, obviously, but the ranged damage enhancers martial classes get out the gate are pretty tame. They basically amount to 2 damage on every hit or 4-ish damage on a single hit. Barbarians break that mold, but only for melee and thrown. (Thrown weapons are nice and all but they only really excel in a certain mid-game range where you can afford a returning rune but not elental runes.) Thaumaturge can also break that mold, but is limited to thrown or reload weapons.
chain blast i get but barrage blast? like sure it is a free third attack but how often will that third -10 map attack actually manifest into damage?I used arial boomerang a bit, and it was ok early on, but it is easier to get 3 or 4 targets with barrage blast and chain blast than it is with AoE attacks. I understand that a lot of folks scawf at the damage die of air, but the range and agile were good at low levels, and the range + shock rune was a lot of fun later on, because you crit pretty often when you get to use it optimally against a lot of lower level targets.
AoE damage on overlows is a little low for what they do, but if they added debuffing effects on successful saves as well, I feel like the difference between blasts and overflow burst effects would remain very significant.
I have not played around with horrid Ignition either.
Blast Barrage is 3 attacks at full bonus. The third action would presumably be used for something other than attacking a third time, like moving or gathering. Or, heck, attack again if you're agile.
Blast barrage is good for the agile blasts. Getting 4 attacks in the round is the advantage, but only worth it with agile
I thought the same at first glance but alas, it has normal MAP.Blast Barrage is 3 attacks at full bonus. The third action would presumably be used for something other than attacking a third time, like moving or gathering. Or, heck, attack again if you're agile.chain blast i get but barrage blast? like sure it is a free third attack but how often will that third -10 map attack actually manifest into damage?I used arial boomerang a bit, and it was ok early on, but it is easier to get 3 or 4 targets with barrage blast and chain blast than it is with AoE attacks. I understand that a lot of folks scawf at the damage die of air, but the range and agile were good at low levels, and the range + shock rune was a lot of fun later on, because you crit pretty often when you get to use it optimally against a lot of lower level targets.
AoE damage on overlows is a little low for what they do, but if they added debuffing effects on successful saves as well, I feel like the difference between blasts and overflow burst effects would remain very significant.
I have not played around with horrid Ignition either.
Huh, you're right. I was wondering why people were so focused on Chain Blast in comparison.
It wouldn't be terrible if you could do them all against a single target.
I thought the same at first glance but alas, it has normal MAP.Blast Barrage is 3 attacks at full bonus. The third action would presumably be used for something other than attacking a third time, like moving or gathering. Or, heck, attack again if you're agile.chain blast i get but barrage blast? like sure it is a free third attack but how often will that third -10 map attack actually manifest into damage?I used arial boomerang a bit, and it was ok early on, but it is easier to get 3 or 4 targets with barrage blast and chain blast than it is with AoE attacks. I understand that a lot of folks scawf at the damage die of air, but the range and agile were good at low levels, and the range + shock rune was a lot of fun later on, because you crit pretty often when you get to use it optimally against a lot of lower level targets.
AoE damage on overlows is a little low for what they do, but if they added debuffing effects on successful saves as well, I feel like the difference between blasts and overflow burst effects would remain very significant.
I have not played around with horrid Ignition either.
Huh, you're right. I was wondering why people were so focused on Chain Blast in comparison.
It wouldn't be terrible if you could do them all against a single target.
yeah if you could single target it would be good and if it was no map it would be good but as is i just dont ever see myself spending a feat on it
If you have agile blasts, then your 3rd and 4th attack in a round still have a chance of critting, especially any time you can use barrage blast. If you are going to make two blast attacks in a round, you might as well blast barrage. Then you still have a free action which you can use to do what ever or make another attack. It also works with melee attacks so earth and air can use those weapon traits, air can add STR to damage with reach (which is how I used it), and you can switch between melee and ranged, so if you are fighting more than 2 enemies, you can actually target them, which can be tougher with AoE attacks.
Blast barrage is good for the agile blasts. Getting 4 attacks in the round is the advantage, but only worth it with agile
I've used it with Agile or Sweep to great effect in conjunction with things like an animal companion support benefit to make my targets flat-footed.
When you take into account mitigators like that, you'd be pretty surprised just how often it lands.