What's your tier list?

[Martialmasters]

I love fighting games. And fighting game players for better or worse love tier lists. But there is a big difference between fighting games and ttrpgs. Mainly one is player vs player and the other is cooperative.

That said I still took to designing a tier list. Then realized it's impossible to have just one.

So am in the process of making 4.

Also note, this is ignoring level 20 capstone feats as some are so wild as you be almost impossible for me to quantify

Single Target damage- not just damage per hit, but damage per action. Consistency. Longevity. Etc. This doesn't discount burst potential but it also doesn't look at it as the only thing that matters.

Area of effect damage

Combat utility

Ooc influence

The tier lists are being designed around solely the class features, feats, and abilities (including spell school). And this isn't meant to say your bad if you try to make a single Target damage cleric or a face fighter. This is just where I view things at the moment. It's a cooperative game, you can and should play whatever you want and anyone who looks down on you for that has problems.

Single Target damage tier list, please note, due to subclasses and feats, this is largely damage potential. Not every character in this tier list will be doing this well, it will depend on how you built the character.

S tier, these classes are ahead of the game
#1- barbarian- any surprise? A static +12-18 damage will do that to you.

#2- fighter- they don't typically hit as hard without specific attacks that usually use an extra action. But they hit and critical more often.

#3- rogue - their high damage is conditional, but over time, this condition becomes *almost* negligible. Plus their main damage isn't variable and is more often than others subject to damage resistance or immunities

A tier

Ranger- rangers have a condition that must be met (hunt prey) for pretty much every new target until high levels where it goes to two. But they are incredibly consistent, though they require significant action investment for it. Whether it be being a damage turret or utilizing an animal companion. This is the only A tier

B+ tier, ok so you may be wondering why I dropped from S to A then you B+. This is how fighting game tier lists work. It's not just letters in ascending order but perceived relative power. A fighter I view as a full tier above ranger. But these next classes I view closer to ranger than ranger is to the S tier.

Magus- incredibly hard hitting alpha strikes. Serviceable normal strikes. But they are limited by now often they can recharge spell strike.

Gunslinger - incredibly hard hitting crits. But their normal hits are anemic. Coupled with action economy restrictiveness with their best weapons. Reload. You can circumvent it to an extent but not entirely.

Monk- not that hard hitting at all. But consistent. They can't lower their map like ranger. If they could they'd probably be in A tier slightly above ranger. Their incredible action economy and speed let's them be even more consistent and stances are a one action per combat investment typically until higher levels.

B tier

Swashbuckler- highly mobile, decently damaging. But their damage type is more prone to resistances and they have to jump through more hoops to keep both of these key features going. Wich can lead to inconsistency.

Inventor- limited in uses of their most powerful abilities or risk consequences. Inability to start with an 18 in Dex or strength. Resulting in you being ever so slightly less accurate through half your career. The inventor is very strong. No doubt. But needs to pick their moments.

Summoner- this one surprised me. I greatly undervalued the damage potential of certain eidolons. While they aren't doing the most. They do far more than I expected.

Druid - if a druid focused on strength and wild shapes. They have great potential damage output almost to that of your average martial. But a reliance on focus points can put you in awkward positions especially at lower levels.

Champion- they are the poster child for b tier imo. There is nothing wrong with their damage. There is also just nothing special. Their methods of increasing damage are often very niche requiring specific kinds of enemies. Their great reaction with paladin helps them a lot.

Investigator- bottom of B tier. It's not that they can't do good damage. It's just on one attack per round. They dont get max starting Dex or strength. And lot of their kit just isn't designed for damage dealing. They try to make up for that with devise a stratagem so they can really maximize on what they want to do. But that also means what they want to do sometimes isn't damage. And this is a damage tier list

C tier- alchemist and rest of the casters. It's simple. Especially as they level. Their primary single Target damage is cantrips. Wich are 2 actions. As they get much higher they can sling spells. But it's still not the same in terms of longevity or action efficiency for damage. I could argue cleric for D tier but if you could convince your GM to let you start with warpriest and retrain into cloistered later that would be better

Psychic - my gut says b tier. They can do much more with cantrips and start the game with what feels like better longevity than a typical caster.

Thaumaturge is my difficult one. I'm just not sure. Off the cuff I'd say B tier as well? They remind me of inventor without the higher damage spike's

If you read this far, thanks. Just keep in mind these lists are not purely objective. I didn't go by sole white room math but a combination of math, actual play. Practicality.

Beyond that, these are completely open for discussion and debate. I am in no way some perfect paragon if reasoning. So instead of telling each other why we are wrong. Tell me your tier list. Tell me why. Tell me why you think someone should be higher or lower.

Just keep to the rules of only valuing the classes feats and features (including spells) and as I said. I couldn't quantify many capstone feats

[Eoran]

I still think this is a bad idea. A tier list for personal use could probably be made to work. Trying to create one and posting it publicly - expecting that everyone is going to agree on anything - is going to fail.

Also, when you mentioned making 4 tier lists, I was at least hoping that they would be about different aspects. Instead it is just 3 tier lists about doing damage and a small nod to the idea that there is something more to the game than that.

[The Raven Black]

I think it is a very good thing that any PF2 tier list, especially with explanations of the ratings, will teach us a lot about what the poster likes / values in a game.

And very little about the worth of the classes.

[YuriP]

Making a list of tiers in TRPGs is complicated due to the great diversity of roles that each character can fulfill.

So for starters, if you are going to make a Tier list, first you need to define the function of the class you want to make the list. DPS? Tanker? healer? Social? Survivability? Investigation? Getting Information?

Each class ends up specializing more or less in some type of role and depending on the focus it will have a totally different position in the Tier. For example, if you put a fighter in a DPS tier he will be at a high value, while if you put him in a Social tier he will likely be well below other classes.

Another thing that also interferes is the level. The same fighter is excellent from level 1-20! But the same cannot be said for a caster. So if you're going to make a Tier, it's also important to consider the level. Usually separating between levels 1-4, 5-8, 9-12, 13-16, 17-20 which is usually the pattern of levels where many of the characters gain important abilities and where many APs are concentrated (although they do divide the levels into 6 groups), also just divide the levels into 10 groups representing each level of magic (1-2, 3-4, 5-6...), but the list tends to be quite large and with a lot of repetitions.

Noticed this, I have fun with the idea of ​​players making their Tiers and explaining why, as The Raven Black said, it ends up showing a lot of each one's perception of each class. But I first need the Tier to be limited in ways like I said above so it can have a minimum of seriousness and standard for comparison.

[Martialmasters]

Eoran wrote:

I still think this is a bad idea. A tier list for personal use could probably be made to work. Trying to create one and posting it publicly - expecting that everyone is going to agree on anything - is going to fail.

Also, when you mentioned making 4 tier lists, I was at least hoping that they would be about different aspects. Instead it is just 3 tier lists about doing damage and a small nod to the idea that there is something more to the game than that.

It's 2 tier lists about damage

One for combat utility (support)

And one for ooc influence

I also don't expect people to agree, merely to discuss

[siegfriedliner]

My tier list goes as follows

Top: Bard
A versatile, powerful spellcaster with reasonable defense

Near-top
Cleric, fighter, rogue, wizard, sorcerer, thaumatruge they all excel at what they do but none are quite as versatile as the bard

Middle- the majority of the classes not mentioned here

Near worst - Witch like a Wizard but just straight inferior in most ways

Worst:
Alchemist - clunky and frustrating mechanics that make you jump through hoops with the worst accuracy in the game for your core stick

[YuriP]

Martialmasters wrote:

Eoran wrote:

I still think this is a bad idea. A tier list for personal use could probably be made to work. Trying to create one and posting it publicly - expecting that everyone is going to agree on anything - is going to fail.

Also, when you mentioned making 4 tier lists, I was at least hoping that they would be about different aspects. Instead it is just 3 tier lists about doing damage and a small nod to the idea that there is something more to the game than that.

It's 2 tier lists about damage

One for combat utility (support)

And one for ooc influence

I also don't expect people to agree, merely to discuss

I still don't understand it completely (Combat utility is an absurdly larger list that can include even healing cleric (what a better combat utility than being responsible to maintain the party alive?) and OOC is an absurd wider range of utility (an investigator is useful to detect and disarm dangerous traps, or a ranger would be useful to track an opponent, or thaumaturge can easily RK about any mistical thing and so on) you need to be more specific otherwise practically all classes will be in top tier rank.

But as in OP you basically focused in DPR I will restrict my list to DPR, and will add levels to it because some classes simply changes over time.

DPR top tier list lvl (1-4):
- S-Tier: Fighter with Barbarian Dedication. The high critical rate + additional damage from rage makes it the best DPR of this level
- A-Tier: Giant Instinct Barbarian. It's the best damage bonus when directed compared to other classes but the with rage bonus can surpass due it higher crit and hit when compared to a fighter with barbarian archetype rage.
- B-Tier: Dual Weapon Flurry Ranger. Their multiple attack with low MAP using agile weapons make this range having a good DPR hitting many lower damage attacks and the multiply attack keeps the critical rate high.
- C-Tier: Magus using Flaming Wisp Spell than spellstring in next turn with shocking grasp*
- D-Tier: Draconic Summoner + 3-action Magic Missiles*
- E-Tier: Dual weapon Rogue. Using a rapier to receive deadly benefits from 1º attack and a short sword due improved hit from agile attacks help to hit with precision damage against flat-footed opponents.**

DPR top tier list lvl (4-8):
- S-Tier: Fighter Barbarian still reigns supreme and now with giant's rage
- A-Tier: Flurry Ranger with a mature companion. The ranger companion receives flurry so it's more damage efficient than a normal companion helping to improve the ranger efficiency not only with flanking and support abilities
- B-Tier: Magus using Flaming Wisp Spell than spellstring in next turn with shocking grasp + Draw the Lightning*
- C-Tier: Giant Instinct Barbarian.
- D-Tier: Draconic Summoner with Draconic Frenzy + Flaming Sphere*
- E-Tier: Rogue with Opportune Backstab

DPR top tier list (9-12)***:
- S-Tier: Draconic Summoner with Draconic Frenzy + Mirror Malefactors****
- A-Tier: Cone of cold/Chain lightning Magus
- B-Tier: Occult Spellcaster casting Biting Words+Mirror Malefactors****
- C-Tier: Fighter based Eldritch Archer
- D-Tier: Precision Ranger based Eldritch Archer
- E-Tier: Flurry Ranger with a bow

DPR top tier list (13-16)***:
- S-Tier: Cone of cold/Chain lightning Magus + Hasted Assault
- A-Tier: Draconic Summoner with Draconic Frenzy + Mirror Malefactors****
- B-Tier: Occult Spellcaster casting Biting Words+Mirror Malefactors+Efortless Concentration****
- C-Tier: Fighter based Eldritch Archer
- D-Tier: Fighter archer with Multishot Stance
- E-Tier: Flurry Ranger with a bow

DPR top tier list (17-20)***:
- S-Tier: Draconic Summoner with Draconic Frenzy+Wyrm's Breath + Mirror Malefactors****
- A-Tier: Occult Spellcaster casting Biting Words+Mirror Malefactors+Efortless Concentration****
- B-Tier: Cone of cold/Chain lightning Magus + Supreme Spellstrike
- C-Tier: Fighter archer with Multishot Stance
- D-Tier: Flurry Ranger with a bow
- E-Tier: Fighter based Eldritch Archer
* DPR using spellslots can make stronger effect but it's unsustainable in a game with many encounters.
** Rogues generaly needs flat-footed opponents to use their to apply it's precision damage.
*** Starting from this level flying creatures able to do ranged attacks start to appear. So I removed melee specialized classes without native abilities to fly and switch weapons to bows. Some martial still can use flying abilities from ancestries and spells but I decided to not consider to keep analises more group and ancestry agnostic.
****Mostly occult spells with the best damage is Mental/Linguistic/Illusory making then restrict to intelligent creatures only (but they are pretty common in this level)

[Gortle]

Mixing round after round damage, with Nova damage is tricky.
Likewise mixing single target damage with multitarget damage is complex.
If you have enough targets the most damage is going to come from spells with huge area of effects.

AFAICT the most damaging single target spell in the game is Debilitating Dichotomy

For multitarget spell not looking at the areas just the damage the best is probably the 2 turn version of Inner Radiance Torrent which scales in a broken way. So probably shouldn't be considered.

[Candlejake]

Ill just copy what i said in the last Tierlist discussion. Its less oriented in something easily objectifyable and more on a combination of combat effectiveness and how well they fit into a party. Which is why champion is so high for example. I think nobody would go "oh no we have a champion in our party". They tank hits, protect allies and can single handedly take care of out of combat healing.

myself wrote:

think tier lists are an interesting exercise and while I, as many others, think that pf2 is really well balanced I think there are some classes that are better than others and some that are worse. Someone in this thread said we all know that bard is better than witch, which is kinda what I'm aiming at.

I think one could probably get away with 4 Tiers, being "best", "better" "average" and "worse/subpar". Thinking about it I thought 3 would be enough but I think there are so classes I consider borderline between best and average.

The "best" classes: Bard, Druid, Fighter, Champion, Rogue

"Better": Barbarian, Cleric, Magus

"Average" classes: Monk, Sorcerer, Ranger, wizard, Gunslinger, Summoner, Inventor(?)

"Subpar" classes: Witch, Oracle, Swashbuckler, Alchemist, Investigator

You could probably also put Cleric and Barbarian into the best tier and Magus into average if you wanna boil it down to 3. Barbarian in best tier might be a more out there pick but I might be biased because I dm for a party where the dragon Barbarian is honestly one of the less experienced or tactical players but this class f@&&ing decimates enemies. The crits are absolutely insane. And the -1 AC does make them squishier but they still have loads of HP. Might be a tainted opinion because they have a Champion protecting them.

I think many people are tempted to just have martials in top tier, but bard and druid are there 100%. Very versatile classes. A storm druid with animal order explorer can provide a flanking buddy, has a focus spell that is excellent for both damage and debuffing. Their Aoe quickly becomes pretty strong with the primal spell list and they can still take care of healing. All while having higher defenses than other casters.

The cleric is on borderline simply because healing font. Getting a bunch of free max level heal spells is just that good. But they have some weak points through their spell lkst which is why i dont put them in top.

For Thaumaturge and Psychic i cant really say yet. As i havent seen them in action.

I'd probably put Psychic into average. They have some great support tools (amped message, amped guidance, Gathered Lore Psyche action), fantastic focus spells (shatter Mind is pretty insane tbh) and unleashed pushes their damage further. They have some weak points though, like at level 12 other casters catch up to their focus point renewal, while psychics only improves normally. They also have some wonky +2 scaling on some stuff. These things hold them back.

Thaumaturge ishonestly probably borderline if not top. I think their damage can be pretty great and stuff like scroll thaumaturgy and diverse Lore gives them really good utility.

[Ubertron_X]

The Raven Black wrote:

I think it is a very good thing that any PF2 tier list, especially with explanations of the ratings, will teach us a lot about what the poster likes / values in a game. And very little about the worth of the classes.

The problem being that a lot of "what the poster likes / values in the game" might be influenced by the environment in which the poster is used to play. A player in a campaign where the GM is using 'spring attack' unique CR+3 monsters at almost every corner might value a Fighter's +2 to hit a lot more than the Wizards ability to prepare for nearly every situation.