Hello all!
I just needed some advice for a paladin class I'm playing. Currently in the Giantslayer AP and a buddy of mine and I are playing a Tiefling and Aasimar Paladin for role play and its been pretty fun!
I went for the self healing Pitborn Tuefling route and it's been fairly fun. We just reached L4 and I'm having some trouble with feats. As part of the theme for our paladins we are both swinging great swords. Now that you have some backstory, whats the feats I should continue with this class?
L1 - Fey Foundling
L3 - Power Attack
L5 - Furious Focus or Greater Mercy
L7 - Furious Focus or Greater Mercy
L9 - Extra Lay on Hands / Lunge?
L11 - Ultimate Mercy
So my question involves is the greater Mercy worth it? I currently have 42 HP at L4 and am going to 51 at L5. With my Lay on Hands I'm healing 2D6+9 averaging about 20% of my HP. Do I Go the Greater Mercy to average 5HP more or Furious Focus? Also, would Linge be a good investment at L7 or L9? I'm using a Greatsword and going against the giant creatures is creating a problem with just have a 20 ft. Movement. So, I ask again for some feat advice or anything else for future levels? Thanks!
If you are already expressing concern with their reach/your movement speed, then I would take Lunge as soon as possible [7].
You seem relatively confident in your ability to heal yourself, so you could hold off on Greater Mercy for right meow... get Furious Focus at 5, before your second attack. That way, you are swinging penalty-free with Power Attack. And at 6, when you get your second attack, your first swing is still without penalty. You'll probably still want Greater Mercy at 9, and Ulimate Mercy at 11.
is the greatsword a must? also are you going for a mount at level 5 or for weapon power-up?
if you want better reach and movement, go for a mount. try to get one that can move everywhere. see if you can get it upgraded to a large cat. some GM make horses have problems with stairs. the good thing about fighting giants is there is usually space for a large mount to move in their locations.
as for reach. id get shield focus (heavy shield) and shield brace (heavy shield) then move into a pole-arm+ shield fight. you'd get at least +3 more ac (from focus and heavy shield. more if enchanted) and still use the weapon 2 handed to get full power attack and 1.5 str bonus.
heck if you are mounted going for lance would let you deal double damage on a charge if you can make it. if you got a pouncing cat mount then he can pounce when you do double smite damage attack -pretty epic at this stage ;)
(i'd keep a lance for first charge then move to a nodachi or one of the reach polearms that do 1d12 like the Lucerne hammer)
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With respect to Voodist Monk, I would advise against Furious Focus. Blade Tutor’s Spirit reduces the Power Attack penalty to -1, which should be negligible and manageable at any state of your paladin’s career.
I hate to reduce a theme to mathematics, but Greater Mercy ultimately adds up to a very situational extra 3.5 hit points healed (on average). Extra Mercy, on the other hand, gives your Lay on Hands that much more versatility with regard to the conditions it can heal. Along similar lines, Ultimate Mercy costs ten uses of Lay on Hands, whereas Channeled Revival only costs six (by way of three uses of Channel Energy).
Lunge is a great investment against creatures with reach. Ultimately, you and your Paladin partner will determine whether your theme is both of you swinging greatswords specifically, or whether it’s swinging the same weapons, period. Unless the greatsword is your deity’s weapon, the two of you might consider a bardiche, or another polearm with reach—which could replace the need for Lunge, or make it that much more effective.
Speaking of deities, I would highly advise you to grab feats like Divine Interference and Unsanctioned Knowledge, and explore what boons your deity would grant via Celestial Obedience or Deific Obedience. Divine Interference is a 1/day chance to make the GM roll that natural 20 as an immediate action, which could be massive (pun intended) when fighting giants. Unsanctioned Knowledge opens the door to the Divine Power spell—which eventually becomes as good as Smite Evil and a Speed weapon… but can be used against non-evil opponents… AND can supplement Smiting to devastating extent. Celestial/Deific Obedience really comes online at 16th level, but the benefits can be incredible: Ragathiel, for example, provides a sacred bonus equal to half your HD on damage rolls made with slashing weapons against the last creature to have physically wounded you within the last 24 hours. Combined with Smite Evil and Power Attack, that is a frankly ridiculous amount of damage per swing. Sadly, the number of good deities with a healing boon is very limited. Sarenrae’s is underwhelming, and besides her you only have Immonhiel—who allows you to cast an empowered heal spell 1/day.
Finally, while a Divine Bond with a weapon will feel really tempting, I would really recommend going with a mount—especially if you’re also going with Unsanctioned Knowledge and picking a spell that acts as Haste. Along with feats like Improved Share Spells, it will give you excellent mobility. The only issue is that, until you get an item or feats that grant your mount things like flight or climb/swim speeds, you’ll need to consider how long it takes to get both you and your mount ready for combat.
I hate to reduce a theme to mathematics, but Greater Mercy ultimately adds up to a very situational extra 3.5 hit points healed (on average). Extra Mercy, on the other hand, gives your Lay on Hands that much more versatility with regard to the conditions it can heal. Along similar lines, Ultimate Mercy costs ten uses of Lay on Hands, whereas Channeled Revival only costs six (by way of three uses of Channel Energy).
I disagree.
First, if you take into account Fey Foundling it's ~+5.5HP.
Second, regardless of your Fey and/or Foundling status, it's extra HP per use of LoH. This means that over the course of the day it adds up. +5HP/day isn't much, but +55HP/day is meaningful.
Finally +5.5HP doesn't seem like a lot, but consider that a Paladin's self-healing is generally considered the Gold Standard for in-combat healing. At level 5 this feat would be a whopping +50% to all healing from LoH. That means it's more impactful than Fey Foundling. Now Fey Foundling continues to scale with level, while Greater Mercy's flat-bonus will scale poorly in comparison, but it's never really BAD. By level 10 it's getting watered down somewhat , but it's still adding 20% to your overall healing for the day.
I'm not going to debate that Extra Mercy is good [ooc](because it is good)[/i], but I think Greater Mercy has it's place as well.
This means that over the course of the day it adds up. +5HP/day isn't much, but +55HP/day is meaningful.
But that’s just the thing: combat being what it is, the question is less about the cumulative impact of 55 hit points a day and more about the difference those extra 5.5 hit points made that round or the next.
I will actually retract my recommendation re: Extra Mercy because it occurs to me that this is really about what the paladin in question can do at level 5, and the selection of Mercies at that point is limited. Instead, and the campaign in question being giant-centric, I wonder whether an extra 5.5 hit points per round are more likely to keep you alive than, say, Step Up at level 5 and either Skyseeker Style or Lunge at level 7.
That having been said, I recognize that what I’m proposing is getting away from the theme FUBARC and his friend have set out with.
In all honesty I would not furious focus at all. Paladins usually don’t have a big problem hitting their targets especially when using smite evil or divine bond. Throw in some boosting spells like divine favor and they can usually hit what they need. To me this is fixing a problem that is really not that big.
Greater Mercy is a little better, but it is still boosting something that is extremely good. MrCharisma brings up a good point about the total healing for the day. The real advantage from this is that the paladin will need less healing after a combat. This means that the healing resources he would have used can be used on the rest of the party. That may not directly benefit the paladin, but it does increase the survivability of the party.
The thing is that neither of these feats expand what the paladin can do. Leimenia’s suggestion of Cornugon Smash and hurtful is actually in my opinion better than either of them. If Skill unlocks are allowed in the campaign signature skill intimidate might be worth looking at.
Agreed. I didn’t mention Cornugon Smash and Hurtful because Lunge really is that important in this case (and directly competes with Cornugon Smash for that level 7 feat slot) and because I don’t know to what extent Charisma is a priority for these characters. I often see it take second place to Strength and that means it might not suffice for reliably intimidating Giants.
But yeah, if FUBARC’s Tiefling is charismatic enough, Hurtful at 5th level, and Cornugon Smash or Lunge at levels 7 and 9 makes most sense to me, as well.
is the greatsword a must? also are you going for a mount at level 5 or for weapon power-up?
So a little on my equipment. I acquired a Horse, Advanced with combat training and lucky. I also have a horsemasters saddle and a +1 greatsword with keen. So I'm not stuck on the greatsword but its a pretty solid peice of equipment at my level.
Little bit more about the characters stats for those that need them, 12 dex, 8 wisdom, 18 Str and currently a 17 cha. I'll bump the charisma up to 18 at L8 evening it out with str. Honestly should have done it the other way.
I'm not stuck on the greatsword as the campaign evolves so does the needs of the character for both of us. He's talking going Aasimar racial feats to fly at this point. There are 5 of us in the party.
So, by reading through this a lot of you agree with Lunge so would Power attack, furious focus and then Lunge be the way to go? The shield focus and shield brace plus a pole arm is also an option.
As to point out @Phoebus I think greater Mercy may be better at 9 or 11 as I won't even be able to ultimate mercy until way later. Would Hurtful or Curmudgeon smash be worth it? I don't think Shaken add that much, especially against giants and when my Wisdom is currently at a -1. I could very well be wrong.
So to sum up the options...
5 - Furious Focus
7 - Lunge
9 - Greater mercy or other combat feat
5 - Shield Focus
7 - Shield Brace
9 - Greater mercy or other combat feat / pole arms?
5 - Hurtful
7 - Curmudgeon Smash
Again, am I wrong but is this to apply shaken?
So, by reading through this a lot of you agree with Lunge so would Power attack, furious focus and then Lunge be the way to go?
The thing about Furious Focus is that it only helps with your first attack—the one that needs it the least. Having Blade Tutor’s Spirit running is a far better investment, as it’s effectively Furious Focus for every attack.
As to point out @Phoebus I think greater Mercy may be better at 9 or 11 as I won't even be able to ultimate mercy until way later.
It comes down to what works best for your concept, FUBARC. I would pass on that feat altogether.
Would Hurtful or Curmudgeon smash be worth it? I don't think Shaken add that much, especially against giants and when my Wisdom is currently at a -1. I could very well be wrong.
To be clear, Intimidate works with Charisma, not Wisdom. Giving enemies the shaken condition is just a bonus; the real point of the combo is the free attack you get as a swift action—at your highest BAB—if you successfully intimidate your target.
Hence why I think your level 5-9 feats should be devoted to Cornugon Smash, Hurtful, and Lunge. At level 11 and beyond, I think you have much better feats to go after than Greater Mercy. But again, what’s most important is your concept and themes!
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If you have access to signature skill you can impose more than just the shaken condition. In that cause feats that boost intimidation become extremely useful.
Taking a -2 on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks and ability checks is fairly decent. Don’t forget that the shaken creature takes that penalty on those rolls against everyone. The penalty on saving throws means the giant is going to have a greater chance to fail its saves vs the other party members. This type of thing is what makes the party a team instead of a collection of individuals.
So, by reading through this a lot of you agree with Lunge so would Power attack, furious focus and then Lunge be the way to go?Hence why I think your level 5-9 feats should be devoted to Cornugon Smash, Hurtful, and Lunge. At level 11 and beyond, I think you have much better feats to go after than Greater Mercy. But again, what’s most important is your concept and themes!
Hey Phoebus, sorry to dredge this up after couple weeks, we went on a hiatus for this campaign. Should be going up to lvl 7 and finishing the next book by the end of the month. So, back to what I said as I haven't played in a while I still have to select the L5 feat.
Some things I've pondered is that swift action, my character uses swift action to smite/lay on hands. Does Hurtful really interfere with that LOH and smite action economy? I am sold on not taking furious focus. You're absolutely correct that it is an a wasted feat.
The more I look at the feats, I see lunge as kind of not necessary w/ my equipment and spell slots atm. I have capaign item, Gorems thorn that I may keep, may not. +1 greatsweord with keen is kinda fun. Would this work instead?
5 - Intimidating Prowess
7 - Curmudgeon Smash
9 - Signature Skill
Other options or feats to look at is the typical unsanctioned knowledge and maybe Vital Strike route or is the shield route better for that increased AC? Heck, would the Eldritch Heritage feat be n option at this point?
I'm kind of roleplaying my character as an Anakin Skywalker before the fall while my buddy is playing like Obi-Wan..... he's going the typical Aasimar racial feats.
Again, apologize and I know I'm all over the board w/ this but to help narrow it down, I'm more than likely sticking to the greatsword and am normally the guy to get hit the most as my damage is fairly good and w/ the Fey Foundling BS feat I heal for a bit. Thanks again.
Hurtful does use a swift action so it will be competing for lay on hands and maybe even smite evil. Both of those use a swift action and you only get a single swift action per round. Using it will be limited to when you have either already declared a smite evil, or do not intend to smite evil, and you don’t need to heal. The intimidating powers, cornugun smash and signature skill would allow you to impose more than just the shaken condition. As a paladin that could be useful.
Being able to cause a foe to flee instead of having to kill them may come in handy especially if you GM is going to put you in the situation where you have to fight someone you would rather not. For example, if your paladin has to fight another good champion (not another paladin) in a duel. In most duels when one opponent flees screaming in terror it is considered a victory for the one who caused the opponent to flee.
Some things I've pondered is that swift action, my character uses swift action to smite/lay on hands. Does Hurtful really interfere with that LOH and smite action economy?
As a swift action, the bonus attack from Hurtful would interfere with your Lay on Hands and Smite Evil. That said, Smite isn’t something you’ll be doing every round, and Lay on Hands is something you will usually know you need to do at the beginning of your turn.
It’s best to think of the bonus attack from Hurtful as just that: a bonus. Ideally, your friend’s buffer PC will cast Haste on you and the Gunslinger. Unless there’s a FAQ stating otherwise, though, Hurtful’s attack stacks with Haste. So, on rounds when you don’t need to Lay on Hands, getting an extra attack in—especially against an evil creature that you’re Smiting—is massive.
The more I look at the feats, I see lunge as kind of not necessary w/ my equipment and spell slots atm. I have capaign item, Gorems thorn that I may keep, may not. +1 greatsweord with keen is kinda fun.
The number one rule in all this is having fun. Anything I recommend takes firm second place!
That said, I’m a big fan of having reach against creatures with reach, and Lunge gives you that. A greatsword does not, but 8th level gives your Divine Bond a +2 bonus, so now Gorum’s Thorn can be a +1 holy keen greatsword. If you’ve got a couple 1st level spell slots dedicated to Grace, you should be fine.
Would this work instead?
It depends on what you want your character to focus on. Between your Charisma and those feats, you should be reliably demoralizing (and potentially frightening and panicking) your enemies. Depending on the situation, forcing an enemy to withdraw can be more beneficial than getting an extra attack on them.
Other options or feats to look at is the typical unsanctioned knowledge and maybe Vital Strike route or is the shield route better for that increased AC? Heck, would the Eldritch Heritage feat be n option at this point?
I love Unsanctioned Knowledge because it effectively gives your character four options you wouldn’t otherwise have.
I would not recommend Vital Strike. Your Paladin, who deals significantly more damage bonuses through his Smite Evil, Divine Bond, Divine Favor, and Power Attack than through his actual weapon, stands to lose more than most by limiting himself to a single attack. The shield route has a lot of benefits, but is feat-intensive.
Eldritch Heritage also offers a lot of fun variety, but requires an additional feat (Skill Focus)… so plan accordingly.
Some things I've pondered is that swift action, my character uses swift action to smite/lay on hands. Does Hurtful really interfere with that LOH and smite action economy?As a swift action, the bonus attack from Hurtful would interfere with your Lay on Hands and Smite Evil. That said, Smite isn’t something you’ll be doing every round, and Lay on Hands is something you will usually know you need to do at the beginning of your turn.
Thanks again for all the help! You've kind of sold me on the intimidate feat tree. Would I be correct in surmising this. IF I want to intimidate I have to roll 5 above for them to become shaken. As this is the giantslayer AP I'm at a -4 to start, my current bonus at L5 is 9. So, I'm rolling w/ a +5 against giants. They get 10+their hit die (D10) normally + Wisdom modifier (2 normally). So I'm going against a 22 save meaning I need to roll at least a 17 to hit, and I can't even hit a 27 for an additional round. So, how do I address this deficit for creatures that are fairly difficult to intimidate? I get 3 ranks for skills every level so at 7 I can have 9+6. Do I need to dedicate all my skill ranks to this specific thing?
Side question as well, if I try to intimidate for a standard action w/ hurtful before CS, will that provoke an AOO?
Feats...
5 - Hurtful / Intimidating Prowess
7 - CS
9 - Signature Skill / Lunge
11 - GM
13 - UM
Should I give up on feats like Unsanctioned Knowledge or Toughness?
Thanks again, really enjoying this!
Also, would Enforcer be the better option to take and just deal nonlethal damage?
{. . .}
5 - Intimidating Prowess
7 - Curmudgeon Smash
9 - Signature Skill
{. . .}
I want to see this feat Curmudgeon Smash in action . . . .
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I want to see this feat Curmudgeon Smash in action . . . .
And stay out ya Dang Brats!
Toughness is a waste of a feat especially for a paladin. The only reason to take it is if you get it as a bonus feat and have no better alternative.
Give up on Unsanctioned Knowledge. Using your 3rd or 4th highest stat for INT which is one of two stats that you could put your 8 into is not a good idea. As paladin you want STR to be your highest stat, followed by CHA. Those are your two most important stats. After that you want a good CON for HP and fortitude saves. Being able to heal as a swift action does not work when you are dead or disabled, and fortitude saves are important. After that you probably want some DEX if you can manage to give you AC, Reflex saves and initiative. That leaves INT and WIS as dump stats.
Dumping WIS is not as bad for a paladin as other characters because they have good will saves and get CHA to saves, they also have immunity to several things that will saves cover. But it is still an important save. Dumping INT on a paladin means they get crap for skills. For a human it is not quite as bad because they can still get at least 3 skill points per level. Both of these are better than dumping something else. Often the best choice for a paladin is not to dump anything. With the stat aray you are using you have to dump something.
Thanks again for all the help! You've kind of sold me on the intimidate feat tree.
You’re welcome! It’s a fun option, but like a lot of what you have to play with in Pathfinder it can be feat-intensive and takes some time to fully come online.
Would I be correct in surmising this. IF I want to intimidate I have to roll 5 above for them to become shaken.
The DC to demoralize an enemy is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier. If you roll 5 higher than the DC, you demoralize them for an additional round. If you roll 10 higher than the DC, you demoralize them for two additional rounds, and so on. Signature Skill allows you to increase the intensity of the effect (frightened, panicked), as well as the duration (depending on the number of skill ranks).
As this is the giantslayer AP I'm at a -4 to start, my current bonus at L5 is 9. So, I'm rolling w/ a +5 against giants. They get 10+their hit die (D10) normally + Wisdom modifier (2 normally). So I'm going against a 22 save meaning I need to roll at least a 17 to hit, and I can't even hit a 27 for an additional round. So, how do I address this deficit for creatures that are fairly difficult to intimidate? I get 3 ranks for skills every level so at 7 I can have 9+6. Do I need to dedicate all my skill ranks to this specific thing?
For something like this, you probably need to be dedicating a skill rank every level. And I somehow forgot that Intimidate is not a class skill for Paladin! The question then becomes whether you’re strictly working with treasure you find, or if your party has the opportunity to buy or craft specific items. A potion of Enlarge Person, for example, costs just 50 gp and takes care of the -4 penalty for demoralizing a larger creature for a minute.
Side question as well, if I try to intimidate for a standard action w/ hurtful before CS, will that provoke an AOO?
I believe so.
Should I give up on feats like Unsanctioned Knowledge or Toughness?
Thanks again, really enjoying this!
Also, would Enforcer be the better option to take and just deal nonlethal damage?
It honestly comes down to what you envision for your character.
As a Paladin, you can easily go with Enforcer—by using +1 of your Divine Bond to give your weapon the Merciful quality. Enforcer’s bonus is that it will make the demoralizing effect last for a considerably long time. The obvious problem with this is that until you use a standard action to switch Merciful off, you’re stuck being merciful to creatures you probably don’t want to show mercy to… and that’s not very “Anakin.”
Beyond that, it comes down to what value you plan on getting from your feats. Are the two Paladins riding solo on this AP? If so, Ultimate Mercy might be worth considerably more than if you have a Cleric. If you have a dedicated healer, then you have my thoughts on this, from earlier posts.