What do you want from a Lost Omens: The Saga Lands?

[GM_3826]

keftiu wrote:

I think the Ulfen deserve a deity capable of having Good followers.

Sort of? It's the Vikings that worship Gorum. You know, the raiders. Who would be non-good, because raiding isn't a good action.

Logically, not all Ulfen are Vikings. In fact, historically the traders and their port towns came first, rather than the other way around as was stated in the 1e books. We've found reindeer antlers in archaeological sites in Denmark on the grounds of port towns that have been carbon dated back to before the Viking Age, which is significant because reindeer are not native to Denmark.

Raiders popped up after the Norse developed sailing skills through trading and raiding ports became a lucrative enterprise. So I think the problem is less "Ulfen need a deity that allows good followers" and more "the Ulfen traditions of trade and exploration need more emphasis." If the Saga Lands has its own section on deities, in addition to gods like Lissala, Nocticula, and the Kellid gods detailed in QftFF, it would make sense to include a few new deities such as one of trade and exploration that Ulfen follow.

That said, there's really nothing stopping those Ulfen from worshiping another deity like Erastil, who includes trade as part of his areas of concern. I think the big thing is that the less violent parts of Norse culture warrant some attention, not that the Ulfen necessarily need a deity that allows good followers.

[CynDuck]

I think any theistic culture should have deities with followers of good alignments as an option even if it's something where they have to hide their faith. The Ulfen feel like the type of people who should revere a wide variety of gods too with all the trading they do, also their connections with Arcadia could mean they worship some of the Arcadian deities.

[GM_3826]

CynDuck wrote:

I think any theistic culture should have deities with followers of good alignments as an option even if it's something where they have to hide their faith. The Ulfen feel like the type of people who should revere a wide variety of gods too with all the trading they do, also their connections with Arcadia could mean they worship some of the Arcadian deities.

This is true. I'm not sure Ulfen necessarily need to have a specific deity as a cultural touchstone they can point to that "allows good followers".

[Morhek]

Even if you can't disentangle Gorum from the Ulfen, you can do some different things with him. Shimye-Magala is an example of syncretism that may turn into hypostasis, a fusion of two gods into a regionally unique entity. Likewise, Desna, Erastil, Pharasma and Torag and the Eldest have worshippers in the region, but there are ways to work them into the area that makes them feel more tied to it. Pharasma isn't all that different to Hel, Erastil is like a cross between Freyr and Odin, and Gorum has some Thor theming if you focus on his less morally-ambivalent side. My concern is that they should be made to feel more localised, like they're organic parts of the local belief systems. Osirion does a good job assimilating Sarenrae, Nethys and Pharasma to feel like ancient and stories parts of the country, and Lost Omens: The Mwangi Expanse shows that you can supplement established pantheons with new gods to improve the setting flavour.

[The Raven Black]

I remember Gorum being a Kellid deity and half-orcs saying he was their patron deity, born of the mixed blood of Orc and Human warriors on the field of battle.

I do not remember him having any special link to Ulfen.

Except of course for the tropes about Ulfen = vikings = raiders + berserkers = god of bloody battle. Which feels more like an afterthought to me though.

[GM_3826]

Morhek wrote:

Even if you can't disentangle Gorum from the Ulfen, you can do some different things with him. Shimye-Magala is an example of syncretism that may turn into hypostasis, a fusion of two gods into a regionally unique entity. Likewise, Desna, Erastil, Pharasma and Torag and the Eldest have worshippers in the region, but there are ways to work them into the area that makes them feel more tied to it. Pharasma isn't all that different to Hel, Erastil is like a cross between Freyr and Odin, and Gorum has some Thor theming if you focus on his less morally-ambivalent side. My concern is that they should be made to feel more localised, like they're organic parts of the local belief systems. Osirion does a good job assimilating Sarenrae, Nethys and Pharasma to feel like ancient and stories parts of the country, and Lost Omens: The Mwangi Expanse shows that you can supplement established pantheons with new gods to improve the setting flavour.

Oh yeah, this is precisely the kind of thing should happen. That said, I feel the need to point out that Urgathoa closely resembles Hel in that at least some accounts suggested that Hel was also a corpse from the waist down. Pharasma is a bit more like the pre-Christianization version of Hel that "just is", but I think Urgathoa is already meant as an analogue of sorts as a goddess of disease that Gorum dislikes for taking warriors before their time.

As for the idea that Gorum is more closely tied to half-orcs and Kellids, in addition the part about einherjar and valkyries I mentioned, he was the only god listed as worshiped by the Ulfen of Broken Bay, who believed themselves to be the only true Ulfen. I will, however, acknowledge that the einherjar and valkyrie connection may simply be because 1e's conception of Kellids was deeply influenced by Conan, and the 80s Conan movie had a valkyrie play a major role.

[CrusaderWolf]

I don't think the Ulfen need an off-brand Norse pantheon; if the core deities don't feel quite right (Gorum & Desna make sense to me) but there are plenty of demigods who could be fleshed out--empyreal lords, ushers, and a handful of thematic demonic lords/daemonic harbingers would be welcome. I also had ancestor-focused "barrow cults" who focused on Urgathoa's War aspect, and could call upon the interred wights and draugr of their ancestors.

I admit I don't have any strong feelings for Varisia; Irrisen under its new queen is ripe for some wonderful political intrigue; the Realm of the Mammoth Lords got a solid treatment recently. It's the Land of the Linnorm King that is really crying out for a more nuanced treatment imo.

I don't know how Paizo plans to do it, but for myself I expanded the diversity of the region--humans are joined to a greater degree by elves, dwarves, frostcrag orcs, giantkin (firbolg, ogres, and trollkin mostly), tengu, and lycanthropes. Since the LotLK is also bordered by highly magical neighbors I made the Ulfen a culture that produces unusually high numbers of kineticists. Air/Water masters can make their longships shockingly fast and maneuverable; Fire/Lightning wielders are the equal of any southern longship boasting catapults or cannon; Stone, Metal, and Wood shapers are craftsfolk par excellence whose services are in high demand. For me this helps give them a distinct flavor that could still plausibly fend off their caster-heavy neighbors. I also have the Saga Lands' various true giants as neighboring realms who are no less engaged via trade & politics than any other polity.

[PossibleCabbage]

I think what we're missing in terms of Norse analogues for the Ulfen is someone to fill the roll of Tyr as the "honor god", who was once the primary Nordic deity before Odin whose role got supplanted in prehistory by Ol' One-Eye because terrestrial entities came to realize that winning by guile was often a better approach than winning through honorable means.

[UnArcaneElection]

Opsylum wrote:

{. . .}

And then...she had enough. Much as our own world came to the table and worked to talk through our differences after witnessing the devastating potential of nuclear war, Kazutal – witnessing the scale of destruction and desolation caused by war – was provoked to take a long look at what it was she really valued. While it's unknown exactly what moved her, it seems she ultimately decided what she really cared about is people – all people.
{. . .}

Apart from disagreements on Golarion lore, I think you might be giving the people of Earth too much credit . . . .

CorvusMask wrote:

{. . .}

I kinda avoided mentioning it whenever 1e core ancestries get brought up is that lot of their history is from player companion books from early pathfinder which are of questionable canonicity nowadays {. . .} Orc player companion for example proposes idea that reason why orcs are so eager to fight to death is that they have innate talent to forget traumatic memories seemingly at will(to be exact, player companion claims they have ability to selectively forget what they want to forget, which they usually use to forget memories they believe make them weaker, like crippling failures, moments of fleeting terror and unwanted emotions). {. . .} (its at same time hilariously disturbing ability and pretty alien concept, so I'm bit sad it never got explored again, though I guess it was originally more of cheap justification for leeroy jenkins tactics)
{. . .}

Alien? Humans do this all the time on Earth.

[Scarablob]

Honestly, I'd rather see how the different culture of golarion interpret the core pantheon rather than invent more gods as we go. "Regionnal" gods kinda lessen the whole "divine" aspect of them, it make them seem less important. Things like Walkena or empyreal lords make sense because they're not full gods, but rather "godlings", less powerfull being that have the godlike power of empowering clerics, but I prefer when only a relatively minor part of the population worship them, because they simply don't have the "reach" of full deities (with a few exeption that make sense like Walkena himself).

[zimmerwald1915]

Scarablob wrote:

Honestly, I'd rather see how the different culture of golarion interpret the core pantheon rather than invent more gods as we go. "Regionnal" gods kinda lessen the whole "divine" aspect of them, it make them seem less important. Things like Walkena or empyreal lords make sense because they're not full gods, but rather "godlings", less powerfull being that have the godlike power of empowering clerics, but I prefer when only a relatively minor part of the population worship them, because they simply don't have the "reach" of full deities (with a few exeption that make sense like Walkena himself).

This objection is ludicrous, not least because any number of real-world pantheons and religions were and are primarily associated with one country or region or civilization.

[The Raven Black]

Scarablob wrote:

Honestly, I'd rather see how the different culture of golarion interpret the core pantheon rather than invent more gods as we go. "Regionnal" gods kinda lessen the whole "divine" aspect of them, it make them seem less important. Things like Walkena or empyreal lords make sense because they're not full gods, but rather "godlings", less powerfull being that have the godlike power of empowering clerics, but I prefer when only a relatively minor part of the population worship them, because they simply don't have the "reach" of full deities (with a few exeption that make sense like Walkena himself).

The core deities are not exactly a pantheon though. They are the 20 most popular deities in the Inner Sea Region. They come from various origins and various pantheons actually.

[Morhek]

Scarablob wrote:

Honestly, I'd rather see how the different culture of golarion interpret the core pantheon rather than invent more gods as we go. "Regionnal" gods kinda lessen the whole "divine" aspect of them, it make them seem less important. Things like Walkena or empyreal lords make sense because they're not full gods, but rather "godlings", less powerfull being that have the godlike power of empowering clerics, but I prefer when only a relatively minor part of the population worship them, because they simply don't have the "reach" of full deities (with a few exeption that make sense like Walkena himself).

I strongly disagree that having more gods "lessens" their divinity. Having a core pantheon, and then imposing them on the planet, seems very limiting when (in-universe) these gods likely have holdings on many worlds across the universe and therefore don't really NEED large followings across the world, just whoever is willing to listen, and (out-of-universe) real-life polytheism is incredibly diverse. In antiquity, the Mediterranean world (which the Inner Sea is modelled on) was an incredibly diverse - Greek and Roman polytheism, Celtiberians, Gauls, Britannian Celts, Germanic tribes, Persians, Egyptians, Thracians, Berbers, Arabs, all with their own foibles and uniqueness all interacting.

I agree that even if you keep the pre-established Desna, Erastil, Pharasma and Gorum etc. as important parts of LotLK's worship, you can make them feel a little more rooted to the region and their worships feel a bit more organic. They don't just worship Pharasma because she's the god of death, she'd be THEIR god of death and take a form that's a little more familiar to them. The way the Kellids of the RotML reinterpret gods - Sarenrae as Sister Cinder, for example - is a way to do it that adds character. But working them into a local pantheon, with unique gods not worshipped elsewhere, makes the setting feel more set apart and unique. The lion-gods of Mzali and Shimye-Magala help make the Mwangi Expanse feel more unique, as does the Osiriani pantheon (even if, in hindsight, I agree Paizo would have been better making up their own gods rather than introducing real-life ones, as much as I love them). What kind of gods would a place loosely themed after Scandinavia produce to join the one-eyed Erastil, Pharasma in her hall atop the spiral mound, smiting Gorum and his Valkyries, etc?

[pixierose]

I like the Saga Lands, one think I would like to see is the discussion of the Mystery Cults of Magnimar. They always fascinated me but unless there are lore drops I am missing they have only been briefly discussed. I also do like the Varisians and Shoanti but I also wonder how they may be adapted and updated with 2e's current approach to cultures.

[UnArcaneElection]

(Suddenly have this vision of regional deities, but the better-connected ones offer their Clerics reasonable roaming plans for travel out of region . . . .)

[Morhek]

Returning briefly to the subject of making the Golarion gods feel a bit more incorporated into the culture, I remembered that Torag also has a large number of human worshippers among the Ulfen where he isn't just a dwarven god, but a god of community and society. One way to set the LotLK's pantheon apart, and to let Torag feel like he should have more appeal when he's better known as God Of The Dwarves, is to show how Torag is depicted there, whether in human or dwarven form, and how he gets along with the other major gods of the region - I can't imagine he'd be especially interested in Gorum who revels in battle regardless of cause, unless they had a common enemy, like perhaps Zursvaatar the fire-giant god. But he's particularly noted as being on very good terms with Erastil, given their similar portfolios.

[MMCJawa]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

Scarablob wrote:

Honestly, I'd rather see how the different culture of golarion interpret the core pantheon rather than invent more gods as we go. "Regionnal" gods kinda lessen the whole "divine" aspect of them, it make them seem less important. Things like Walkena or empyreal lords make sense because they're not full gods, but rather "godlings", less powerfull being that have the godlike power of empowering clerics, but I prefer when only a relatively minor part of the population worship them, because they simply don't have the "reach" of full deities (with a few exeption that make sense like Walkena himself).

This objection is ludicrous, not least because any number of real-world pantheons and religions were and are primarily associated with one country or region or civilization.

This isn't a comparable situation however. We know, with a very few exceptions such as false gods like Razmir, that the different gods in pathfinder are empirically real. They 100% exist as distinct entities, and it is kind of weird to have things lime multiple sun gods and such.

In the real world, different regions worship different deities, however there is no empirical basis that any specific pantheon/cosmology is real. Folks who consider one god real may just consider the other region's deities as fake or demons (Christianity, Islam, etc), or simply alternative versions of the gods they worship (how the Greeks looked upon the Egyptian pantheon).

[The Raven Black]

Or they just accept the reality that there are several sun-deities.

[keftiu]

With Rusthenge leading in to Seven Dooms For Sandpoint and space existing for something even further after that (a 12-20?), it would seem like we're due for a fair dose of Saga Lands fun... which makes me wonder if a proper Lost Omens revisit might be on the menu? A more 'classic' palette pairs nicely with the Remaster, and might help reorient nostalgic fans after so much new in PF2.

...plus, it ups the odds of us seeing more Arcadian-Ulfen links, and I eat that stuff up!

[The Raven Black]

I think we're due for a rehabilitation of Avistani orcs (and Belkzen in particular) thanks to forward-thinking dwarves. Striking together against the common enemy of all (Tar-Baphon) would be a great way to achieve this IMO.

[zimmerwald1915]

The Raven Black wrote:

I think we're due for a rehabilitation of Avistani orcs (and Belkzen in particular) thanks to forward-thinking dwarves. Striking together against the common enemy of all (Tar-Baphon) would be a great way to achieve this IMO.

Orcish rehabilitation been policy since at least the World Guide, which featured Belkzen snubbing Tar Baphon and fighting undead incursions from the south. What has not necessarily been policy is Orcish-Dwarven rapproachment, but that would require significant social reform on the dwarven side (namely recognizing orcish title to the Sky Citadel(s?) in Belkzen).

But Tar Baphon is not the common enemy of all. The main enemy is at home.

[The Raven Black]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

I think we're due for a rehabilitation of Avistani orcs (and Belkzen in particular) thanks to forward-thinking dwarves. Striking together against the common enemy of all (Tar-Baphon) would be a great way to achieve this IMO.

Orcish rehabilitation been policy since at least the World Guide, which featured Belkzen snubbing Tar Baphon and fighting undead incursions from the south. What has not necessarily been policy is Orcish-Dwarven rapproachment, but that would require significant social reform on the dwarven side (namely recognizing orcish title to the Sky Citadel(s?) in Belkzen).

But Tar Baphon is not the common enemy of all. The main enemy is at home.

We already had inklings for the reform on the dwarven side in the "blasphemous" policies contemplated by the High King of Dongun Hold.

And I think The Sky King's Tomb AP will provide the final push on the dwarven side.

[vyshan]

Since we have Revenge of the Rune lords coming up, I have wondered if we will get one so we can see more of New Thassilon. All the ruins of Thassilon sound cool.

As for Ulfen Land, I would love to see more especially with the death of Gorum. That has to have a major upset to their religious beliefs.

In regards to religion. I always love regions having their own pantheons where various divine beings are all worshipped together. For the Ulfen this could include the various Aesir Monitors, but also Desna, several giant deities like Skode and Aegirran.

Also I am wondering how much influence the Russians have on Irriseni culture. I certainly hope that the White soldiers didn't bring their homophobia, racism, anti-semitism and more that was prelevant in the white army and white adminstrated regions during the civil war with them when they came to golarion.

I do like that they brought Ice Hokey though; the fact Irriseni didn't have Ice Hockey before is a crying shame! I wonder if that sport has spread to the Ulfen, as I got to imagine it should. So I wonder what other sorts of things like this got imported. Related I really want to learn more about Stasian technology that Anastasia is developing.

Like with the Ulfen, I too am curious for the religion of Irrisen. I want to know what gods besides Zon-Kuthon and Lamashtu are worshipped. While I do want to know if Russian Orthodox Christianity was established or not in the land(one of the NPCs in frosty mug is explictly the daughter of a russian priest), in part due to the russians but also due to the new queen; and also potentially any other real faiths like Islam or Judaism. but even beyond that their are plenty of people who wouldn't feel drawn to either Zon Kuthon or Lamashtu in Irrisen. Where are the Ice gods or gods of the hearth or giant gods.

[Prince Maleus]

I would really love to have a Jadwiga Heritage for humans and a Winter Witch class Archetype for the Witch.

[vyshan]

Prince Maleus wrote:

I would really love to have a Jadwiga Heritage for humans and a Winter Witch class Archetype for the Witch.

We have that sort of.

There is the pre-remaster, winter-touched heritage for humans that explictly calls out the Jadwiga. Baba Yaga is a Patron as the slience in snow both of which seem fitting for witches. though we don't have a specific winter witch archetype. So that would be cool to have.

[Prince Maleus]

I hoping for more ancestry feat themed around the Jadwiga an since back in 1e we had a Winter Patron, Winter Witch Class Archetype and Winter Witch Prestige Class.

I really want a Winter Witch class Archetype for the Witch in 2e.

[HenshinFanatic]

Personally, I feel the Shoanti haven't gotten much love in 2E, so I would definitely appreciate them getting more than just a few lines of description.

[vyshan]

HenshinFanatic wrote:

Personally, I feel the Shoanti haven't gotten much love in 2E, so I would definitely appreciate them getting more than just a few lines of description.

They got quite a bit of love in the second book of triumph of the tusk. including backmatter! :)

[Virellius]

vyshan wrote:

HenshinFanatic wrote:

Personally, I feel the Shoanti haven't gotten much love in 2E, so I would definitely appreciate them getting more than just a few lines of description.

They got quite a bit of love in the second book of triumph of the tusk. including backmatter! :)

My... not concern, but interest, in the Shoanti as depicted in that book (specifically in art) was that they were very much depicted as Real Life Native Americans. Shoanti had always been a sort of unique to Golarion indigenous people of the region, and Arcadia exists to tell the stories of Native Americans and First Nations peoples, so making Shoanti ALSO that seems a bit confusing. You shouldn't just slap a real-life aesthetic onto people so I wonder if there's some in-universe lore for that? Perhaps a connection to Arcadia?

[James Jacobs]

The Shoanti are...

Spoiler:

...exports from my homebrew, and their culture was very much inspired by Native American traditions—but also a mix of other inspirations as well, including stories by Fritz Leiber and Robert E Howard, as well as a bit of local Northern Californian culture as well. When I transported them out of my setting and into Golarion back when we first launched Pathfinder Adventure Path, there was no time and fewer resources to "make it right" (by which I mean consult with cultural experts and adjust text as needed), and it's taken us a bit to get around to start addressing that.

They're not meant to be an exact parallel to existing Native American peoples, nor is Arcadia the only place where those stories and traditions can be explored, but drawing inspiration for a game about dragons and elves and goblins from real world cultures should always be done with care and resepect... especially in a case like this where, (unfortunately traditionally), Native American inspired content doesn't have as good a track record.

As for why we haven't done much with them in 2nd edition? Unlike Varisians or Taldans or Garundis or Keleshites, who are much more widespread across the Inner Sea, Shoanti are pretty focused on Varisia. Sort of like how Ulfens are pretty focused on the Linnorm Kingdoms. And since for the majority of 2nd edition our lore books have focused away from Varisia and the Saga Lands (because we spent a LOT of time exploring them in 1st edition and before 1st edition), there just hasn't been much of an opportunity to talk about Shoanti in any of the lore books. Part of including more Shoanti content in Triumph of the Tusk was deliberate, to give us a chance to start expanding on and exploring their culture with the aid of the right voices and consultants to make sure that we were presenting them respectfully—which is a step we take for all of our content based on real world stuff these days, now that we have the staff and resources and time to include that very important step (something that, again, we wern't fortunate enough to have in the earlier days).

(AND: Fun/shameful side note: the Shoanti were completely missed as an ethnicity in the first hardcover book we did for Golarion before the Pathfinder RPG came along—they just slipped through the cracks as a side effect of compartmentalization between the Adventure Path team where most of the Shoanti work had been done at that point and the Campaign Setting team. We're doing better today by that account, at least!)

TL;DR: The article in Triumph of the Tusk is indeed the most recent and accurate bit of exploration on the Shoanti, and its creation did include consulting and working with Native American creators and consultants.

[Virellius]

James Jacobs wrote:

The Shoanti are...

** spoiler omitted **...

Oh that's actually really cool!

That being the case, I am really happy to see the push towards more cultural sensitivity. I think Paizo really is at the forefront as the most progressive space in the 'biggest entity that isn't the Other Game Company' section of the ttrpg world and it always makes me proud to be able to tell people about the efforts you guys do to be respectful and inclusive.

[The Raven Black]

Where can we look for Celtic-inspired people on Golarion ?

[Dragonchess Player]

IIRC from the Reign of Winter AP (Maiden, Mother, Crone), Iobaria draws at least somewhat on Celtic culture.

[Mammoth Daddy]

I hope Paizo follows through making compilations of some of the other 2e books. I’d love more info in the realm of the mammoth Lords and a compilation of Quest for the Frozen Flame.

[Morhek]

The Raven Black wrote:

Where can we look for Celtic-inspired people on Golarion ?

The Kellids in general have always struck me as very Celtic. The Taldan Empire pushing them back is a parallel to the Roman conquest of Gaul, their subjugation by and eventual split from the dwarves of the Five Kings Mountains makes Druma feel like if you were going to make anywhere on Golarion "Fantasy Scotland" it would be there, and Iobaria has a very Post-Roman Britain vibe to me, though with the roles reversed - Celtic-themed Sarkorians fleeing the fall of their own lands and settling Germanic-themed Ulfen territory. It's not a perfect 1:1 parallel, nor should it be, but in the same way the Kellids are influenced by the old Conan the Barbarian tropes, the character Conan himself was influenced by old ideas about Celtic warriors.

[Mammoth Daddy]

Necroing this thread, now that we have the very book announced.

Hope everyone is happy returning to where it all began.

[TheTownsend]

Mammoth Daddy just beat me to it! The Saga Lands shall arrive next year!

This one's interesting to me. The Saga lands really feel like five different settings. Varisia is very much your classic D&D/Sword & Sorcery "Points of Light" setting; you've got rugged viking clans and city-states; mystical dark russian fairy-tale land; mammoth-riding caveman land; and then there's whatever high-magic BS is going on in New Thassilon post Revenge.

Shining Kindoms sort of felt like a unified Tolkien-adjacent high-fantasy narrative, and Infernal Inheritance of course has this unified sinister distopia feel, this really feels like a smorgasboard of world inspirations rolled into one book.

Out of the Inner Sea, that just leaves Golden Road, Eye of Dread, and Broken Lands without their own LO books. Bets on what's next?

[magnuskn]

As a Varisia lover, this is great. And New Thassilon, yes! Also the other territories, of course. ^^

[Kavlor]

I’m not entirely sure how Paizo plans to cover Varisia. The thing is, unlike other regions we’re familiar with, Varisia doesn’t really have a "capital" that could serve as the focus for a dedicated city section. I’m also curious to see if we’ll finally get material on Janderhoff and Urglin. The former hasn’t received any substantial coverage throughout Pathfinder’s entire history, while the latter only got a brief mention in a Society scenario. Janderhoff, at the very least, is hugely important given its history.

[zimmerwald1915]

Kavlor wrote:

I’m not entirely sure how Paizo plans to cover Varisia. The thing is, unlike other regions we’re familiar with, Varisia doesn’t really have a "capital" that could serve as the focus for a dedicated city section.

Magnimar's very much the first among equals at this point in the setting's history.

[James Jacobs]

Kavlor wrote:

I’m not entirely sure how Paizo plans to cover Varisia. The thing is, unlike other regions we’re familiar with, Varisia doesn’t really have a "capital" that could serve as the focus for a dedicated city section. I’m also curious to see if we’ll finally get material on Janderhoff and Urglin. The former hasn’t received any substantial coverage throughout Pathfinder’s entire history, while the latter only got a brief mention in a Society scenario. Janderhoff, at the very least, is hugely important given its history.

I wrote the Varisia section (as well as the New Thassilon section); not sure how much I'm allowed to share but I can point out that in previous treatments of Varisia, traditionally we've presented the area not as a single "nation" but a frontier with multiple city states, each of which has their own territory and holding, separated by wilderness regions. Magnimar, Korvosa, and Riddleport are the three classic "flavors" of city state we generally focus on for Varisia stuff.

It was, to be honest, a challenge writing the Varisia section... not to create content, but to juggle the "updated content" and the "present long-standing content for modern audiences" and the "present stuff that's new to everyone" balance. I could have written a huge book just about Varisia on its lonesome and still ask for more pages from the publisher! But at some point, that page count becomes so unwieldy that your aimed at a book that'd retail for well over a hundred bucks, which I suspect would cause a certain type of reaction that might not be viewed as constructive...

[Mammoth Daddy]

Looking forward to Lost Omens: Saga Lands so we can know the canon resolution to Revenge of the Runelords

Spoilers for Revenge of the Runelords

Spoiler:

I want to know the status of Xin Edasseril now that Belimarius is dead

Also want to know what’s up with Osprey Cove and Iron Harbour post- Rusthenge, Godsrain and Revenge of the Runelords.

[James Jacobs]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

Kavlor wrote:

I’m not entirely sure how Paizo plans to cover Varisia. The thing is, unlike other regions we’re familiar with, Varisia doesn’t really have a "capital" that could serve as the focus for a dedicated city section.

Magnimar's very much the first among equals at this point in the setting's history.

I wouldn't say that. It's more or less a dead heat between Magnimar, Korvosa, and Riddleport. Depending on the story you want to tell and the vibe you want to send. Each of them could make a show of becoming Varisia's capital city if they wanted, but none of them do. We've got plenty of large nations already, and having a region like Varisia where it's a collection of city states spread out over a wilderness is an exceptionally valuable resource, narratively, for telling stories and placing adventures. That's one of the primary reasons why we go back there so often. The region is itself the closest to a "mini campaign setting" in the classic sense, because that's really what it was designed for initially in the 3.5 era when we needed just that to serve as a place to set our first several Adventure Paths before we were able to create (much less publish) the larger gazetteer of the Inner Sea Region.

[James Jacobs]

Mammoth Daddy wrote:

Looking forward to Lost Omens: Saga Lands so we can know the canon resolution to Revenge of the Runelords

Spoilers for Revenge of the Runelords ** spoiler omitted **

Also want to know what’s up with Osprey Cove and Iron Harbour post- Rusthenge, Godsrain and Revenge of the Runelords.

That spoiler is indeed covered. Not in great detail overall, but as much room as I had to do so.

(And by not in great detail I also kind of mean in greater detail than we've ever done for New Thassilon before, so there's that!)

[Kavlor]

James Jacobs wrote:

Kavlor wrote:

I’m not entirely sure how Paizo plans to cover Varisia. The thing is, unlike other regions we’re familiar with, Varisia doesn’t really have a "capital" that could serve as the focus for a dedicated city section. I’m also curious to see if we’ll finally get material on Janderhoff and Urglin. The former hasn’t received any substantial coverage throughout Pathfinder’s entire history, while the latter only got a brief mention in a Society scenario. Janderhoff, at the very least, is hugely important given its history.

I wrote the Varisia section (as well as the New Thassilon section); not sure how much I'm allowed to share but I can point out that in previous treatments of Varisia, traditionally we've presented the area not as a single "nation" but a frontier with multiple city states, each of which has their own territory and holding, separated by wilderness regions. Magnimar, Korvosa, and Riddleport are the three classic "flavors" of city state we generally focus on for Varisia stuff.

It was, to be honest, a challenge writing the Varisia section... not to create content, but to juggle the "updated content" and the "present long-standing content for modern audiences" and the "present stuff that's new to everyone" balance. I could have written a huge book just about Varisia on its lonesome and still ask for more pages from the publisher! But at some point, that page count becomes so unwieldy that your aimed at a book that'd retail for well over a hundred bucks, which I suspect would cause a certain type of reaction that might not be viewed as constructive...

Anything from Expetations Management Department? I mean, what we could await for Kaer Maga, Janderhoff and Urglin? Few paragraphs as some small locations in huge Varisia? Few pages articles, but smaller then main, bid cities?

[James Jacobs]

Kavlor wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Kavlor wrote:

I’m not entirely sure how Paizo plans to cover Varisia. The thing is, unlike other regions we’re familiar with, Varisia doesn’t really have a "capital" that could serve as the focus for a dedicated city section. I’m also curious to see if we’ll finally get material on Janderhoff and Urglin. The former hasn’t received any substantial coverage throughout Pathfinder’s entire history, while the latter only got a brief mention in a Society scenario. Janderhoff, at the very least, is hugely important given its history.

I wrote the Varisia section (as well as the New Thassilon section); not sure how much I'm allowed to share but I can point out that in previous treatments of Varisia, traditionally we've presented the area not as a single "nation" but a frontier with multiple city states, each of which has their own territory and holding, separated by wilderness regions. Magnimar, Korvosa, and Riddleport are the three classic "flavors" of city state we generally focus on for Varisia stuff.

It was, to be honest, a challenge writing the Varisia section... not to create content, but to juggle the "updated content" and the "present long-standing content for modern audiences" and the "present stuff that's new to everyone" balance. I could have written a huge book just about Varisia on its lonesome and still ask for more pages from the publisher! But at some point, that page count becomes so unwieldy that your aimed at a book that'd retail for well over a hundred bucks, which I suspect would cause a certain type of reaction that might not be viewed as constructive...

Anything from Expetations Management Department? I mean, what we could await for Kaer Maga, Janderhoff and Urglin? Few paragraphs as some small locations in huge Varisia? Few pages articles, but smaller then main, bid cities?

For locations other than the three main cities of Varisia, such as Kaer Maga, Janderhoff, and Urglin, expect something more on the level of a relatively short paragraph or two. As with all of the region books, these are overviews, not deep dives into every location.