What do you want from a Lost Omens: The Saga Lands?

[GM_3826]

keftiu wrote:

I think the Ulfen deserve a deity capable of having Good followers.

Sort of? It's the Vikings that worship Gorum. You know, the raiders. Who would be non-good, because raiding isn't a good action.

Logically, not all Ulfen are Vikings. In fact, historically the traders and their port towns came first, rather than the other way around as was stated in the 1e books. We've found reindeer antlers in archaeological sites in Denmark on the grounds of port towns that have been carbon dated back to before the Viking Age, which is significant because reindeer are not native to Denmark.

Raiders popped up after the Norse developed sailing skills through trading and raiding ports became a lucrative enterprise. So I think the problem is less "Ulfen need a deity that allows good followers" and more "the Ulfen traditions of trade and exploration need more emphasis." If the Saga Lands has its own section on deities, in addition to gods like Lissala, Nocticula, and the Kellid gods detailed in QftFF, it would make sense to include a few new deities such as one of trade and exploration that Ulfen follow.

That said, there's really nothing stopping those Ulfen from worshiping another deity like Erastil, who includes trade as part of his areas of concern. I think the big thing is that the less violent parts of Norse culture warrant some attention, not that the Ulfen necessarily need a deity that allows good followers.

[CynDuck]

I think any theistic culture should have deities with followers of good alignments as an option even if it's something where they have to hide their faith. The Ulfen feel like the type of people who should revere a wide variety of gods too with all the trading they do, also their connections with Arcadia could mean they worship some of the Arcadian deities.

[GM_3826]

CynDuck wrote:

I think any theistic culture should have deities with followers of good alignments as an option even if it's something where they have to hide their faith. The Ulfen feel like the type of people who should revere a wide variety of gods too with all the trading they do, also their connections with Arcadia could mean they worship some of the Arcadian deities.

This is true. I'm not sure Ulfen necessarily need to have a specific deity as a cultural touchstone they can point to that "allows good followers".

[Morhek]

Even if you can't disentangle Gorum from the Ulfen, you can do some different things with him. Shimye-Magala is an example of syncretism that may turn into hypostasis, a fusion of two gods into a regionally unique entity. Likewise, Desna, Erastil, Pharasma and Torag and the Eldest have worshippers in the region, but there are ways to work them into the area that makes them feel more tied to it. Pharasma isn't all that different to Hel, Erastil is like a cross between Freyr and Odin, and Gorum has some Thor theming if you focus on his less morally-ambivalent side. My concern is that they should be made to feel more localised, like they're organic parts of the local belief systems. Osirion does a good job assimilating Sarenrae, Nethys and Pharasma to feel like ancient and stories parts of the country, and Lost Omens: The Mwangi Expanse shows that you can supplement established pantheons with new gods to improve the setting flavour.

[The Raven Black]

I remember Gorum being a Kellid deity and half-orcs saying he was their patron deity, born of the mixed blood of Orc and Human warriors on the field of battle.

I do not remember him having any special link to Ulfen.

Except of course for the tropes about Ulfen = vikings = raiders + berserkers = god of bloody battle. Which feels more like an afterthought to me though.

[GM_3826]

Morhek wrote:

Even if you can't disentangle Gorum from the Ulfen, you can do some different things with him. Shimye-Magala is an example of syncretism that may turn into hypostasis, a fusion of two gods into a regionally unique entity. Likewise, Desna, Erastil, Pharasma and Torag and the Eldest have worshippers in the region, but there are ways to work them into the area that makes them feel more tied to it. Pharasma isn't all that different to Hel, Erastil is like a cross between Freyr and Odin, and Gorum has some Thor theming if you focus on his less morally-ambivalent side. My concern is that they should be made to feel more localised, like they're organic parts of the local belief systems. Osirion does a good job assimilating Sarenrae, Nethys and Pharasma to feel like ancient and stories parts of the country, and Lost Omens: The Mwangi Expanse shows that you can supplement established pantheons with new gods to improve the setting flavour.

Oh yeah, this is precisely the kind of thing should happen. That said, I feel the need to point out that Urgathoa closely resembles Hel in that at least some accounts suggested that Hel was also a corpse from the waist down. Pharasma is a bit more like the pre-Christianization version of Hel that "just is", but I think Urgathoa is already meant as an analogue of sorts as a goddess of disease that Gorum dislikes for taking warriors before their time.

As for the idea that Gorum is more closely tied to half-orcs and Kellids, in addition the part about einherjar and valkyries I mentioned, he was the only god listed as worshiped by the Ulfen of Broken Bay, who believed themselves to be the only true Ulfen. I will, however, acknowledge that the einherjar and valkyrie connection may simply be because 1e's conception of Kellids was deeply influenced by Conan, and the 80s Conan movie had a valkyrie play a major role.

[CrusaderWolf]

I don't think the Ulfen need an off-brand Norse pantheon; if the core deities don't feel quite right (Gorum & Desna make sense to me) but there are plenty of demigods who could be fleshed out--empyreal lords, ushers, and a handful of thematic demonic lords/daemonic harbingers would be welcome. I also had ancestor-focused "barrow cults" who focused on Urgathoa's War aspect, and could call upon the interred wights and draugr of their ancestors.

I admit I don't have any strong feelings for Varisia; Irrisen under its new queen is ripe for some wonderful political intrigue; the Realm of the Mammoth Lords got a solid treatment recently. It's the Land of the Linnorm King that is really crying out for a more nuanced treatment imo.

I don't know how Paizo plans to do it, but for myself I expanded the diversity of the region--humans are joined to a greater degree by elves, dwarves, frostcrag orcs, giantkin (firbolg, ogres, and trollkin mostly), tengu, and lycanthropes. Since the LotLK is also bordered by highly magical neighbors I made the Ulfen a culture that produces unusually high numbers of kineticists. Air/Water masters can make their longships shockingly fast and maneuverable; Fire/Lightning wielders are the equal of any southern longship boasting catapults or cannon; Stone, Metal, and Wood shapers are craftsfolk par excellence whose services are in high demand. For me this helps give them a distinct flavor that could still plausibly fend off their caster-heavy neighbors. I also have the Saga Lands' various true giants as neighboring realms who are no less engaged via trade & politics than any other polity.

[PossibleCabbage]

I think what we're missing in terms of Norse analogues for the Ulfen is someone to fill the roll of Tyr as the "honor god", who was once the primary Nordic deity before Odin whose role got supplanted in prehistory by Ol' One-Eye because terrestrial entities came to realize that winning by guile was often a better approach than winning through honorable means.

[UnArcaneElection]

Opsylum wrote:

{. . .}

And then...she had enough. Much as our own world came to the table and worked to talk through our differences after witnessing the devastating potential of nuclear war, Kazutal – witnessing the scale of destruction and desolation caused by war – was provoked to take a long look at what it was she really valued. While it's unknown exactly what moved her, it seems she ultimately decided what she really cared about is people – all people.
{. . .}

Apart from disagreements on Golarion lore, I think you might be giving the people of Earth too much credit . . . .

CorvusMask wrote:

{. . .}

I kinda avoided mentioning it whenever 1e core ancestries get brought up is that lot of their history is from player companion books from early pathfinder which are of questionable canonicity nowadays {. . .} Orc player companion for example proposes idea that reason why orcs are so eager to fight to death is that they have innate talent to forget traumatic memories seemingly at will(to be exact, player companion claims they have ability to selectively forget what they want to forget, which they usually use to forget memories they believe make them weaker, like crippling failures, moments of fleeting terror and unwanted emotions). {. . .} (its at same time hilariously disturbing ability and pretty alien concept, so I'm bit sad it never got explored again, though I guess it was originally more of cheap justification for leeroy jenkins tactics)
{. . .}

Alien? Humans do this all the time on Earth.

[Scarablob]

Honestly, I'd rather see how the different culture of golarion interpret the core pantheon rather than invent more gods as we go. "Regionnal" gods kinda lessen the whole "divine" aspect of them, it make them seem less important. Things like Walkena or empyreal lords make sense because they're not full gods, but rather "godlings", less powerfull being that have the godlike power of empowering clerics, but I prefer when only a relatively minor part of the population worship them, because they simply don't have the "reach" of full deities (with a few exeption that make sense like Walkena himself).

[zimmerwald1915]

Scarablob wrote:

Honestly, I'd rather see how the different culture of golarion interpret the core pantheon rather than invent more gods as we go. "Regionnal" gods kinda lessen the whole "divine" aspect of them, it make them seem less important. Things like Walkena or empyreal lords make sense because they're not full gods, but rather "godlings", less powerfull being that have the godlike power of empowering clerics, but I prefer when only a relatively minor part of the population worship them, because they simply don't have the "reach" of full deities (with a few exeption that make sense like Walkena himself).

This objection is ludicrous, not least because any number of real-world pantheons and religions were and are primarily associated with one country or region or civilization.

[The Raven Black]

Scarablob wrote:

Honestly, I'd rather see how the different culture of golarion interpret the core pantheon rather than invent more gods as we go. "Regionnal" gods kinda lessen the whole "divine" aspect of them, it make them seem less important. Things like Walkena or empyreal lords make sense because they're not full gods, but rather "godlings", less powerfull being that have the godlike power of empowering clerics, but I prefer when only a relatively minor part of the population worship them, because they simply don't have the "reach" of full deities (with a few exeption that make sense like Walkena himself).

The core deities are not exactly a pantheon though. They are the 20 most popular deities in the Inner Sea Region. They come from various origins and various pantheons actually.

[Morhek]

Scarablob wrote:

Honestly, I'd rather see how the different culture of golarion interpret the core pantheon rather than invent more gods as we go. "Regionnal" gods kinda lessen the whole "divine" aspect of them, it make them seem less important. Things like Walkena or empyreal lords make sense because they're not full gods, but rather "godlings", less powerfull being that have the godlike power of empowering clerics, but I prefer when only a relatively minor part of the population worship them, because they simply don't have the "reach" of full deities (with a few exeption that make sense like Walkena himself).

I strongly disagree that having more gods "lessens" their divinity. Having a core pantheon, and then imposing them on the planet, seems very limiting when (in-universe) these gods likely have holdings on many worlds across the universe and therefore don't really NEED large followings across the world, just whoever is willing to listen, and (out-of-universe) real-life polytheism is incredibly diverse. In antiquity, the Mediterranean world (which the Inner Sea is modelled on) was an incredibly diverse - Greek and Roman polytheism, Celtiberians, Gauls, Britannian Celts, Germanic tribes, Persians, Egyptians, Thracians, Berbers, Arabs, all with their own foibles and uniqueness all interacting.

I agree that even if you keep the pre-established Desna, Erastil, Pharasma and Gorum etc. as important parts of LotLK's worship, you can make them feel a little more rooted to the region and their worships feel a bit more organic. They don't just worship Pharasma because she's the god of death, she'd be THEIR god of death and take a form that's a little more familiar to them. The way the Kellids of the RotML reinterpret gods - Sarenrae as Sister Cinder, for example - is a way to do it that adds character. But working them into a local pantheon, with unique gods not worshipped elsewhere, makes the setting feel more set apart and unique. The lion-gods of Mzali and Shimye-Magala help make the Mwangi Expanse feel more unique, as does the Osiriani pantheon (even if, in hindsight, I agree Paizo would have been better making up their own gods rather than introducing real-life ones, as much as I love them). What kind of gods would a place loosely themed after Scandinavia produce to join the one-eyed Erastil, Pharasma in her hall atop the spiral mound, smiting Gorum and his Valkyries, etc?

[pixierose]

I like the Saga Lands, one think I would like to see is the discussion of the Mystery Cults of Magnimar. They always fascinated me but unless there are lore drops I am missing they have only been briefly discussed. I also do like the Varisians and Shoanti but I also wonder how they may be adapted and updated with 2e's current approach to cultures.

[UnArcaneElection]

(Suddenly have this vision of regional deities, but the better-connected ones offer their Clerics reasonable roaming plans for travel out of region . . . .)

[Morhek]

Returning briefly to the subject of making the Golarion gods feel a bit more incorporated into the culture, I remembered that Torag also has a large number of human worshippers among the Ulfen where he isn't just a dwarven god, but a god of community and society. One way to set the LotLK's pantheon apart, and to let Torag feel like he should have more appeal when he's better known as God Of The Dwarves, is to show how Torag is depicted there, whether in human or dwarven form, and how he gets along with the other major gods of the region - I can't imagine he'd be especially interested in Gorum who revels in battle regardless of cause, unless they had a common enemy, like perhaps Zursvaatar the fire-giant god. But he's particularly noted as being on very good terms with Erastil, given their similar portfolios.

[MMCJawa]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

Scarablob wrote:

Honestly, I'd rather see how the different culture of golarion interpret the core pantheon rather than invent more gods as we go. "Regionnal" gods kinda lessen the whole "divine" aspect of them, it make them seem less important. Things like Walkena or empyreal lords make sense because they're not full gods, but rather "godlings", less powerfull being that have the godlike power of empowering clerics, but I prefer when only a relatively minor part of the population worship them, because they simply don't have the "reach" of full deities (with a few exeption that make sense like Walkena himself).

This objection is ludicrous, not least because any number of real-world pantheons and religions were and are primarily associated with one country or region or civilization.

This isn't a comparable situation however. We know, with a very few exceptions such as false gods like Razmir, that the different gods in pathfinder are empirically real. They 100% exist as distinct entities, and it is kind of weird to have things lime multiple sun gods and such.

In the real world, different regions worship different deities, however there is no empirical basis that any specific pantheon/cosmology is real. Folks who consider one god real may just consider the other region's deities as fake or demons (Christianity, Islam, etc), or simply alternative versions of the gods they worship (how the Greeks looked upon the Egyptian pantheon).

[The Raven Black]

Or they just accept the reality that there are several sun-deities.

[keftiu]

With Rusthenge leading in to Seven Dooms For Sandpoint and space existing for something even further after that (a 12-20?), it would seem like we're due for a fair dose of Saga Lands fun... which makes me wonder if a proper Lost Omens revisit might be on the menu? A more 'classic' palette pairs nicely with the Remaster, and might help reorient nostalgic fans after so much new in PF2.

...plus, it ups the odds of us seeing more Arcadian-Ulfen links, and I eat that stuff up!

[The Raven Black]

I think we're due for a rehabilitation of Avistani orcs (and Belkzen in particular) thanks to forward-thinking dwarves. Striking together against the common enemy of all (Tar-Baphon) would be a great way to achieve this IMO.

[zimmerwald1915]

The Raven Black wrote:

I think we're due for a rehabilitation of Avistani orcs (and Belkzen in particular) thanks to forward-thinking dwarves. Striking together against the common enemy of all (Tar-Baphon) would be a great way to achieve this IMO.

Orcish rehabilitation been policy since at least the World Guide, which featured Belkzen snubbing Tar Baphon and fighting undead incursions from the south. What has not necessarily been policy is Orcish-Dwarven rapproachment, but that would require significant social reform on the dwarven side (namely recognizing orcish title to the Sky Citadel(s?) in Belkzen).

But Tar Baphon is not the common enemy of all. The main enemy is at home.

[The Raven Black]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

I think we're due for a rehabilitation of Avistani orcs (and Belkzen in particular) thanks to forward-thinking dwarves. Striking together against the common enemy of all (Tar-Baphon) would be a great way to achieve this IMO.

Orcish rehabilitation been policy since at least the World Guide, which featured Belkzen snubbing Tar Baphon and fighting undead incursions from the south. What has not necessarily been policy is Orcish-Dwarven rapproachment, but that would require significant social reform on the dwarven side (namely recognizing orcish title to the Sky Citadel(s?) in Belkzen).

But Tar Baphon is not the common enemy of all. The main enemy is at home.

We already had inklings for the reform on the dwarven side in the "blasphemous" policies contemplated by the High King of Dongun Hold.

And I think The Sky King's Tomb AP will provide the final push on the dwarven side.