I have a few doubts about the effects of wish-like spells when trying to replicate a lower spell:
1. These wish-like spells uses a LvL 10 spell "slot" so when it duplicate any same-tradion spell of 9th level or lower this spell is heightened to lvl 10?
2. If yes for the last question same happens to a different tradition spell? For example if level 7th spell from other tradition is casted via Wish is this spell a heightened level 10 spell?
3. If not heightened to 10 what happen to spells lower than lvl 9th or 7th for other traditions? Are they heightened to lvl 9th and 7th respectively or they just casted at same base required levels?
If possible post also the references that makes you belive or not if wish-like spells are or not heightened. Tnx.
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Are they heightened to lvl 9th and 7th respectively...?
Yes. Or rather, you can cast a spell of 9th-level or lower (or 7th-level in the case of non-tradition spells). A fireball heightened to 9th-level fits that criteria.
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A spell heightened to a specific level is a spell of that level. That's quite obvious with counteract checks where you increase the level of a spell to counteract higher level spells.
So a Fireball heightened to level 9 is a level 9 spell and as such can be cast with a Wish when a Fireball heightened to level 10 is a level 10 spell and can't be cast with a Wish.
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Another example is spontaneous casters having to add Fireball (H+1) in their repertoire as a 4th level spell in order to cast it.
A spell heightened to a specific level is a spell of that level. That's quite obvious with counteract checks where you increase the level of a spell to counteract higher level spells.
So a Fireball heightened to level 9 is a level 9 spell and as such can be cast with a Wish when a Fireball heightened to level 10 is a level 10 spell and can't be cast with a Wish.
Makes sense.
So lvl 1 spell of arcane tradition casted with wish can be a 9th lvl spell?
IMO based in the text and other replies here I think you duplicate the effect of 7th level spell.
You use your occult lore and the power of your mind to manipulate the spiritual multiverse, resulting in any of the following effects:
Duplicate any occult spell of 9th level or lower.
Duplicate any non-occult spell of 7th level or lower...
It's like you take the entire spell content heightened to level 7 and call it as Alter Reality (for all effects this spell isn't fireball it's Alter Reality). So their effect are of a lvl 7 fireball but for any other aspects this spell still being a lvl 10 alter reality.
My only doubt is if heightened fits in "Duplicate any non-occult spell of 7th level or lower" or if we use a fireball it will restricted to their required level.
If wish and others could duplicate 10th-level spells, why would you ever prepare 10th-level anything else? You would just have wish filling all your slots.
If it's too good to be true, it probably isn't. (And if it's too bad to be true, it probably isn't.)
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Lets say your ally was being possessed, and Wished for a way to destroy the possessing creature without harming your friend. The GM then determines that a 7th level Spirit Blast would be sufficient. Here's how I would calculate it:
Damage: 18d6 force damage (Same damage a level 7 Spirit Blast would do)
DC: Your current Spell DC
Counteract Level: 10
Counteract DC: Again, your spell DC
So if the enemy attempted to Counterspell your casting of Wish, or there was some other effect attempting to Counteract the Force effect, it would have the counteract strength of a 10th level spell. Basically, you get the effects of a spell at that level, but any DCs or Attack rolls would use your DC or Attack modifier, and the Counteract level is 10.
Lets say your ally was being possessed, and Wished for a way to destroy the possessing creature without harming your friend. The GM then determines that a 7th level Spirit Blast would be sufficient. Here's how I would calculate it:
Damage: 18d6 force damage (Same damage a level 7 Spirit Blast would do)
DC: Your current Spell DC
Counteract Level: 10
Counteract DC: Again, your spell DCSo if the enemy attempted to Counterspell your casting of Wish, or there was some other effect attempting to Counteract the Force effect, it would have the counteract strength of a 10th level spell. Basically, you get the effects of a spell at that level, but any DCs or Attack rolls would use your DC or Attack modifier, and the Counteract level is 10.
I've considered that as well, and believe it to be the intent.
Lets say your ally was being possessed, and Wished for a way to destroy the possessing creature without harming your friend. The GM then determines that a 7th level Spirit Blast would be sufficient. Here's how I would calculate it:
Damage: 18d6 force damage (Same damage a level 7 Spirit Blast would do)
DC: Your current Spell DC
Counteract Level: 10
Counteract DC: Again, your spell DCSo if the enemy attempted to Counterspell your casting of Wish, or there was some other effect attempting to Counteract the Force effect, it would have the counteract strength of a 10th level spell. Basically, you get the effects of a spell at that level, but any DCs or Attack rolls would use your DC or Attack modifier, and the Counteract level is 10.
It's just like I imagine that works. But this also gives me another doubt. How incapacitant trait for a duplicated spell would work it will count as lvl 10?
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As in, is it duplicating the spell slot, or is it duplicating a spell's effects?
I fail to understand what that sentence means.
A Fireball heightened to level 7 is a level 7 spell. As such, it deals 14d6 of damage. A level 10 Fireball is a level 10 spell and deals 20d6 damage. Alter Reality can't cast level 10 Fireballs. There's no ambiguity on that. Heightening a spell actually changes the spell level.It's just like I imagine that works. But this also gives me another doubt. How incapacitant trait for a duplicated spell would work it will count as lvl 10?
Incapacitation works at the level of the spell you duplicate, not at Wish's level.
Wish effects are quite clear: It duplicates a spell. So, once cast, it behaves the same way than the spell it has duplicated. Wish has no lingering effect. The only effect of Wish is to duplicate the spell. Once it's done, there's no trace of Wish anymore.So the only exception with a level 7 or 9 spell is that you actually cast Wish. As such during the spell casting, you are casting Wish and anything that targets the spell being cast (like Counterspell) targets Wish. Once Wish is cast, Wish's effects take place. You can choose to duplicate a spell and if you do then you have a spell, with a level completely separated from Wish's, that takes effects. At that stage, the fact that you got the effects through the casting of Wish or through the casting of that spell is irrelevant, everything works as if you had cast the spell Wish is duplicating. And it includes its level for every purpose (Incapacitation, effects, Dispel Magic, etc...).
OK and one last question is when these wish-like spells says "Duplicate any arcane/occult/divine/primal spell of..." this really means "any" no matter if you know, don't know, if's common, uncommon, rare or unique the spell is?
OK and one last question is when these wish-like spells says "Duplicate any arcane/occult/divine/primal spell of..." this really means "any" no matter if you know, don't know, if's common, uncommon, rare or unique the spell is?
It's any spell.
For Uncommon and Rare spells, you still need the GM approval, there's nothing removing this need. But the GM may allow a Wish to duplicate a spell they wouldn't allow you to learn.|
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I agree that it's any spell, but it's still mostly up to the GM what actually happens when you make your Wish or ask for a Miracle. The whole point of these spells isn't "I use Wish to cast X", it's "I wish for this thing to happen" and the GM fulfills it. If you Wish for a fireball, cool, a fireball happens. But if you wish for something to kill an enemy, the GM can determine that a different spell would be much more effective than you initially thought, and that ends up happening instead.
So for example if you Wish for a spell to kill a Fiend, you may end up casting a 7th level Searing Light dealing 13d6 Fire and 13d6 Good, rather than a 9th level Fireball doing 18d6 Fire or a 9th level Chain Lightning doing 11d12 damage.
The one spell of the 4 that is the most controllable is Alter Reality. The others are more up to the GM, especially Miracle and Primal Phenomenon, which require you to ask a deity or nature itself for help. Wish is hit or miss because it all depends on how you phrase the wish, and the GM interprets it. Alter Reality however, literally allows you to do just that, granting the PC the most control over the effects.
From the way Wish is written, the player is the one in charge of choosing the spell. The fact that the character makes a Wish doesn't mean the player can't handle the choosing of the spell (and I think it's for the best, as the GM has many other things to handle).
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Most players would wish for the spell they want, and that's fine. But it's still reliant on the wish they make, and if the GM wants they can do something unexpected, especially if the wish was vague. I'm not advocating for lesser effects (No Flaming Spheres when they ask for a "Fire Ball"), but if the GM knows the player's expectation won't work, and a better effect aligns with the wish they made, I would encourage the GMs to swap the effects.
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Well if it's copying a 7th level spell it's copying a 7th level spell. Feels pretty clear cut.
If it were cast as a 10th level spell it wouldn't be a 7th level spell it's be a 10th level spell.
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Fireball's effect is dealing d6s of fire damage in a burst. It keeps doing that regardless of what level its cast at. It's also below a 7th-level spell, which makes it a viable target for duplication by any of the wish spells. The amount of d6s it does depend on the spell slot, but the spell slot a spell is cast with and the level on a spell list that the spell appears at are two different things. That's what I'm trying to get at with that sentence, because to me its unclear what bit of duplication the wish spells care about more, mimicking the spell's effect, which could have the spell being cast at 10th-level, or mimicking a spell slot, which would have it cast at 9th or 7th.Perpdepog wrote:
As in, is it duplicating the spell slot, or is it duplicating a spell's effects?
I fail to understand what that sentence means.
I understand now: you are creating a distinction that doesn't exist in game. Fireball is not a level 3 spell. Fireball cast at level 3 is a level 3 spell. The level of the spell in the spell list is just the minimum level you can cast it.