I'm sure this is very clearly spelled out somewhere, but my meds have made me groggy enough, I wonder if someone can help me.
Pretend I'm a sorcerer that has the Orc Bloodline. I have a Spellstoring piece of armor (it can hold up to level 3 spells). I have abilities that raise my CL for vampiric touch (maybe power components, maybe traits, whatever). I also have Wayang Spellhunter, so I actually want to put a +1 metamagic on Vampiric Touch.
How much is actually transferred? If I was a level 10 Sorc doing all this, would the Vampiric Touch trigger, doing the min (5d6 points of damage, no add-ons)? Or does all my class nifty-ness get stored in as well?
Ruff. But makes sense. To negate shenanigans.
So, even though I can cast some sort of +1 metamagic Vampiric Touch, and have a way to personally make that a level 3 spell, it wouldn't be eligible for Spellstoring?
And what about Caster Level and DC on stored spells? Do they drop to the min level required to cast the spell? That'd hurt.
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Ruff. But makes sense. To negate shenanigans.
So, even though I can cast some sort of +1 metamagic Vampiric Touch, and have a way to personally make that a level 3 spell, it wouldn't be eligible for Spellstoring?
Exactly
And what about Caster Level and DC on stored spells? Do they drop to the min level required to cast the spell? That'd hurt.
DC drops to the minimum.
CL is a bit more complicated. Some Spell storing items say that the spell within is stored at the minimum CL, others don't say it.
For ease of bookkeeping, it is assumed that the spells are always a minimum CL. If your GM agrees you can specify at what CL you store the spell and retrieve the spell with the same CL.
The caster level and other variables are always the minimum needed to cast the spell. You are not actually casting the spell, so your abilities don’t matter.
So, even though I can cast some sort of +1 metamagic Vampiric Touch, and have a way to personally make that a level 3 spell, it wouldn't be eligible for Spellstoring?
It would be eligible, because the level of a spell is set at casting, but it wouldn't change what the item casts. You can cast an intensified Vampiric Touch as a 3rd level spell (if you can do so) on the armor, but it what the armor then casts works identical to if you had cast the spell without metamagic.
Oh, and by the way: "Anytime a creature hits the wearer with a melee attack or melee touch attack, the armor can cast the spell on that creature as an immediate action if the wearer desires." The armor doesn't have metamagic feats, bloodlines, or whatever. It also doesn't have ability scores (and no rule that says it adds them, anyway), so the DC will just be 10 + spell level. Furthermore, the armor is the caster of the spell, and thus it would be the armor that gets any effect benefitting the caster (like the temporary HP from Vampiric Touch), not you.
And what about Caster Level and DC on stored spells?
As above, the armor casts the spell. Therefore, it uses the armor enchantment's caster level (12th).
CL is a bit more complicated. Some Spell storing items say that the spell within is stored at the minimum CL, others don't say it.
For ease of bookkeeping, it is assumed that the spells are always a minimum CL. If your GM agrees you can specify at what CL you store the spell and retrieve the spell with the same CL.
The caster level and other variables are always the minimum needed to cast the spell.
Incorrect. "Caster Level (CL): The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable)." CRB pg. 460
If you go by a ring of spell storing the caster level is the minimum needed to cast the spell.
A minor ring of spell storing contains up to three levels of spells (either divine or arcane, or even a mix of both spell types) that the wearer can cast. Each spell has a caster level equal to the minimum level needed to cast that spell. The user need not provide any material components or focus to cast the spell, and there is no arcane spell failure chance for wearing armor (because the ring wearer need not gesture). The activation time for the ring is the same as the casting time for the relevant spell, with a minimum of 1 standard action.
The spell storing armor and weapon technically don't have a "functions as ring of spell storing" clause, but I also think it is dumb to assume that wasn't the intent, especially when they all came out in the same book, and Paizo's notorious wording issues when it comes to saving space.
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Prior discussion on Spell Storing (actually the weapon enchant version, but the principles are pretty much the same): https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g47?Spell-Storing-Weapon#1
No definitive conclusions were reached, of course...
Derklord you seriously are trying to say that if you store a Shocking Grasp with a Cl of 1 in a Spell Storing armor, the armor cast it with a CL of 12?
It's what the rules say.
Incorrect, while you could cast it as a 3rd level spell onto the spellstoring armor, the armor is unable to replicate your ability to do so, and would remember it a 4th level spell.
Not it wouldn't, because the item doesn't care about the metamagic. The spell counts as 3rd level when cast by the Sorc, and that's all the item checks.
If you go by a ring of spell storing the caster level is the minimum needed to cast the spell.
Ring of Spell Storing works fundamentally different. I see no indication that the difference in wording isn't deliberate.
... It also doesn't have ability scores (and no rule that says it adds them, anyway), so the DC will just be 10 + spell level....
items generally do not have an ability score. but items generally also do not cast spells.
this one can cast spells so it MUST have ability score, as you need a minimum caster level to cast spells and a minimum of an ability score of 10+ spell level to cast a spell. (the same ability that grant it pseudo-caster level to cast the spell also grant it pseudo-ability score to cast the spell)which is why items that do cast spells and have the minimum dc usually set them up with minimum ability score to cast said spells in mind, dc 10 for 0st level spells, 11 for 1st, 13 for 2nd etc.
10+0 for 0 level, 11+0 for 1st as 11 score of ability is +0. 13 for 2nd as 10+ 2nd level +1 for 12 in ability etc.
so minimum dc for stored spells would be :
0th level spell => 10 ability score =10 dc
1st => 11 ability score = 11 dc
2nd => 12 ability score = 13 dc
3rd => 13 ability score = 14 dc
and if higher level then 3rd spells (like for rings etc)
4th => 14 ability score = 16 dc
5th => 15 ability score = 17 dc
6th => 16 ability score = 19 dc
7th => 17 ability score = 20 dc
8th => 18 ability score = 22 dc
9th => 19 ability score = 23 dc
for examples:
- necklace of fireballs set the 3rd level spell dc (fireball) at 14 and not 13.
- elixir of Repression set the 2nd level spell dc (calm emotion) at 13.
- Javelin of lightning set the 3rd level spell dc (lightning bolt)at 14.
- Rod of Cancellation set the 9th level spell dc (mage’s disjunction) at 23
etc
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Derklord you seriously are trying to say that if you store a Shocking Grasp with a Cl of 1 in a Spell Storing armor, the armor cast it with a CL of 12?It's what the rules say.
Where?
This is what the rules say:Caster Level (CL): The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation.
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level.
For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself.
Note the text: level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable).
What is the power of the item? Spell storing.
The stored spell isn't a power of the item. The ability to store a spell is the power, not the stored spell.
It is like saying that the content of a Bag of Holding is the power of the item.
The Spell storing items that limit the stored spells to the minimum CL have limited storage space.
Those that don't specify the limit are undefined (probably because no one thought of updating the description), but for sure they don't increase the Cl of the spells stored in them, like a Bag of Holding doesn't change the CL or the size of the items stored in it.
ok so the spell is stored in the item, and the item cast the spell.
way i see it it work kinda like a scroll, where the spell's caster level etc are already set and the user is the one casting it. here the spell variables are set. so you use the caster level of whoever stored it, even if the item is the one 'casting it' it will use the spell's caster level when it was stored and not the item's.
this one can cast spells so it MUST have ability score, as you need a minimum caster level to cast spells and a minimum of an ability score of 10+ spell level to cast a spell.
This may sound silly, but can you quote where it says that? There actually is no general rule like that, it's individually stated for every casting class.
Where?
Right there (what I and now you quoted). Why would it be called [/i]caster level[/i] when you don't use it when the item casts a spell? That what the term is for, after all! "Caster Level (CL): Caster level represents a creature’s power and ability when casting spells. When a creature casts a spell, it often contains a number of variables, such as range or damage, that are based on the caster’s level." CRB pg. 11
"things should be the same, or they should be different". You want to tell me that the item has a caster elvel, but doesn't use it for the caster level of a spell it casts? And instead we are supposed to use a different caster level that is not stated at all?
Seriously?
It explicitly does.
Do you even know what the word "explicitly" means? In order to "explicitly" care about metamagic, it would have to contain the word "metamagic" (or mention altered spell levels/slots).
If the armor attempts to store the spell, it's a 4th level spell, which is greater than 3rd level, ergo, it can't store it.
But it's not a 4th level spell. Just because it would have a higher spell level for someone else doesn't bar it from working. It's just like e.g. Contagion - just because it's a fourth level spell fo a Wizard doesn't mean a Cleric can't put it into a Spell Storing armor.
The item does not discount the level of the spell it holds, therefore the spell is 4th level as far as the item is concerned, and unable to be stored.
I think you missed a part of the item description: "a spellcaster can cast any other targeted touch spell of up to 3rd level into it". You actually cast the spell in order to put it into the Spell Storing. And if you do so as a 3rd level spell (using whatever spell level is more disadvantageous) it qualifies for the armor enchantment. The item doesn't look at your spell list to determine the spell level, it simply checks the spell level you cast it at.
The item does not discount the level of the spell it holds, therefore the spell is 4th level as far as the item is concerned, and unable to be stored.I think you missed a part of the item description: "a spellcaster can cast any other targeted touch spell of up to 3rd level into it". You actually cast the spell in order to put it into the Spell Storing. And if you do so as a 3rd level spell (using whatever spell level is more disadvantageous) it qualifies for the armor enchantment. The item doesn't look at your spell list to determine the spell level, it simply checks the spell level you cast it at.
If you actually follow the entire ruling from that FAQ... then any metamagic spell cast with metamagic cost reductions would actually IGNORE their cost reductions for the purpose of Concentration Checks, Pearls of Power, and Spell Storing... so in the given example in this thread, the spell would in fact still be considered 4 spell levels for spell storing even though it was cast with a 3rd level spell slot.
The "most (dis)advantageous" rulings were put in place as a shortcut to a few more awkward parts of the rules. It allows for things to behave in different ways based on circumstances and bonuses or penalties applied without having to give a lengthy explanation of how each aspect should function. In the example of metamagic, it is most disadvantageous to the caster to use a higher level spell slot, and treat it as a higher level spell for things like concentration, pearls of power, and spell storing. When that disadvantageous situation is then met with an advantageous bonus, the rules automatically adjust for disadvantage. The most disadvantageous outcome is to ignore the advantageous bonus for anything that it doesn't explicitly apply to that is covered by the rule in question. For metamagic cost reductions the only thing they explicitly apply to is spell slot used, so the cost reduction applies to spell slot, but is ignored for concentration checks, pearls of power, and spell storing.
That said... this topic is the only time I have EVER seen anyone try to claim that spell storing items do not keep metamagic benefits (which FYI, Ring of Spell Storing explicitly does keep them), or that the Caster Level is any different than the caster's (obvious exception being Ring of Spell Storing, which again explicitly calls out minimum CL).
The way I have ALWAYS seen Spell Storing Weapons & Armor ran is that the CL & DC are based on the actual caster who stored the spell at the time of storing, and any metamagic applied to the spell at the time of storing functions as normal (assuming the modified spell level is still a valid spell level to be stored). Class features on the other hand... are a topic that has been hotly debated on this...
However, their discount does not apply to the item, and thus the item attempts to store it as a 4th level spell, which is invalid, and thus unable to be stored.This makes no sense, becasue the item also stores it without the metamagic, as that too isn't applied.
Where are you getting that from?
In order for the armor to store it, it must be a 3rd level spell.
And what defines a spell as a 3rd level spell if not what it was cast at?
However, their discount does not apply to the item, and thus the item attempts to store it as a 4th level spell, which is invalid, and thus unable to be stored.
This makes no sense, becasue the item also stores it without the metamagic, as that too isn't applied.
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You want to tell me that the item has a caster elvel, but doesn't use it for the caster level of a spell it casts? And instead we are supposed to use a different caster level that is not stated at all?
Seriously?
It is a container. It doesn't change what it contains.
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this one can cast spells so it MUST have ability score, as you need a minimum caster level to cast spells and a minimum of an ability score of 10+ spell level to cast a spell.This may sound silly, but can you quote where it says that? There actually is no general rule like that, it's individually stated for every casting class.
SAVING THROWS AGAINST MAGIC ITEM POWERS
Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.
Staves are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DCs.
Most item descriptions give saving throw DCs for various effects, particularly when the effect has no exact spell equivalent (making its level otherwise difficult to determine quickly).
The only argument against is the one I used above: "It is a container, you get out what you put in."
But that argument will give you the DC of the spell cast in the armor, not a DC of 10+Spell Level, so it still doesn't work for you.Metamagic:
Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.
As there is no metamagic that increases CL in the CRB, it can only mean "a higher [i[]spell[/i] level than normal."
And the FAQ:
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.
So, you can put a spell with a metamagic in a magic item.
If we use my "it is a container" argument we still can place a spell modified by a metamagic in it.Most abilities that reduce the Spell level aren't metamagic and apply differently:
Metamagic Mastery (Su): At 8th level, you can apply any one metamagic feat that you know to a spell you are about to cast. This does not alter the level of the spell or the casting time.
You use the ability to add a metamagic while casting, but the effect lasts only as long as you are casting the spell and it resolves. When the spell is cast again out of the armor Metamagic Mastery isn't anymore in effect.
Convoluted? Sure, but the goal of the rule is to limit the possibility of "storeing" class abilities so that you can use them more times than normal in a day.
The item does not discount the level of the spell it holds, therefore the spell is 4th level as far as the item is concerned, and unable to be stored.I think you missed a part of the item description: "a spellcaster can cast any other targeted touch spell of up to 3rd level into it". You actually cast the spell in order to put it into the Spell Storing. And if you do so as a 3rd level spell (using whatever spell level is more disadvantageous) it qualifies for the armor enchantment. The item doesn't look at your spell list to determine the spell level, it simply checks the spell level you cast it at.If you actually follow the entire ruling from that FAQ... then any metamagic spell cast with metamagic cost reductions would actually IGNORE their cost reductions for the purpose of Concentration Checks, Pearls of Power, and Spell Storing... so in the given example in this thread, the spell would in fact still be considered 4 spell levels for spell storing even though it was cast with a 3rd level spell slot.
Not sure where you get that idea from. Clearly the intent of the FAQ is to use the final adjusted spell level for concentration checks, etc.
So a maximized fireball is 6th. With magical lineage is 5th. With metamagic mastery is 5th (which even uses the maximized fireball as an example of casting a 5th level spell - note it doesn't say 5th level spell slot - yet clearly it is a 5th level slot, 5th level concentration checks, and still a 3rd level fireball save DC). With both it would be a 4th level spell (at the most disadvantageous).
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As I recall this came up in Org Play about a ring of spellstoring. You can store a spell with metamagic but the metamagic counts towards the total Spell Level of the spell. The spell COMES out of the item at MINIMAL Spell Level and DC for the spell ignoring metamagic (metamagics take the worst option). I looked for a citation (J. Compton over a *special* ring of spell storing in a scenario) but didn't find it in the moment. It's probably the closest you'll get to an official ruling though it IS FOR ORG PLAY (which is it's own beast) thus not explicitly RAW.
Metamagics never increase a spell DC (with the exception of Highten spell and metamagics whose function is to specifically increase a spell DC).