| IluzryMage |
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:UnArcaneElection wrote:Do you want to rework your Planar Binding writeup, or shall I take a pass at it?^Good points.
(1) So Extortion > Negotiation. Figures . . . .
(2) Good addition -- I had thought about this for a while for Summoner Eidolons not built to be combat powerhouses (especially as a way to make Master Summoner's Eidolon be still useful), but apart from the lack of feats, it's true for Familiars as well, if you put some thought into it, although on the flip side, it requires more thought in the first place when you're down at levels where Improved Familiar doesn't get you the good stuff yet, and even once you get that, it's still different for specific different Familiars. Actually deserves a whole section or maybe even a whole guide of its own, and somebody even did a pretty recent one that I need to go read, and . . . hey, Iluzry, you didn't tell me you did one too!
'
Sorry, I was out for a bit. Here's a shot at a rewrite of Called Critters and Familiars:
Called (5 to 6 of 10, except 9 of 10 with archetype support): As a Wizard, you're stuck with the Planar Binding series of spells and the True Name Arcane Discovery, all of which mean you are basically extorting the service from whatever extraplanar creature you call up. This has its upsides and its downsides. The upsides of Planar Binding (and the True Name Discovery) are that you can do it at remarkably lower cost than Planar Ally, which requires you to give a fair payment for the services of a Planar Ally creature; and you can specify which kind of creature or even which specific creature you get. The downsides of...
You know you don't...have to extort anyone to use planar binding. You don't HAVE to call creatures that hate you, and there is even a section where you can give them gifts or bargains. Sure, they might be a little upset that they were summoned from coffee, but if you are a lawful good wizard and summon and archon to save a children from a lich, I don't think they'll really be roaring for revenge. You CAN extort people, absolutely, but it's not necessary.
| UnArcaneElection |
^I suppose you could dispense with the traps and other extortion measures and just let any Outsider that doesn't want to serve go on its way while you attempt to convince each one to serve, but then you might have to cast the Planar Binding spell a whole bunch of time before you succeeds. They still might be creeped out by your use of a spell that is designed for extortion, even if you don't exercise the extortion option.
| Arkham Joker |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here's a biggy on deities.... could it be uploaded along with my recent tweak please!
IMPACT OF DEITY
It should first be noted that there are many deities not mentioned here that are great for several build types, the reason they aren’t mentioned is simply that they don’t offer any bonus spells or deific obedience. To do a review of all Cleric deities would of course be logistically problematic to say the least!! Here is a perfect example of this:
Yamatsumi (N) - Earth, Fire, Protection, Strength, Water
Be honest…have you ever seen in real life a Cleric of Yamatsumi played? How many of you had even heard of this deity before reading this?! No boons and no bonus spells….. BUT…….check out the domains! This Cleric has access to Ash, Caves and Ice subdomains. An Ecclesitheurge could wreak absolute havoc with this…. throw on the Samsaran template do I hear you cry? Congrats you are now the Uber God of spell access.
This section will deal more specifically with bonus prepared spells that are offered, or interesting boons provided that will of course be of interest to a Divine Paragon Cleric with its free Deific Obedience and accelerated access to the boons. IMO the normal rate of boon access just isn’t worth it for most Clerics. So if I mention the boons, I’m talking specifically about Divine Paragon. Depending on builds, it may well be worth investing in Diverse Obedience or the free entry into PrC Evangelist, but I am not going into detail for that on each deity.
Domains are included so as to give a fuller picture of each deity and see how it fits in with possible builds.
Bonus prepared spells are crucial as in several of the cases that spell may well be a domain spell already, but for vanilla clerics this obviously limits their use. In other cases, the spell is a Wizard or Druid/Ranger/Inquisitor spell that would normally be unavailable.
Hopefully by now (and certainly after reading this section) you are seeing how your options as a Cleric are something that is surprisingly complex, more so than any other 9th level caster, when you are putting together how archetype, domains, deity, ability point distribution and FCB could interact.
Erastil (LG) - Animal, Community, Good, Law, Plant
Goodberry can be prepared as a 2nd-level spell
Animal Messenger can be prepared as a 2nd-level spell [may use on any nonhostile animal (including friendly guard animals and domesticated animals)]
The Evangelist boon, Faithful Archer (Ex) - Adding WIS to hit and damage with a longbow is great even if you don’t get it till 14th level.
Iomedae (LG)- Glory, Good, Law, Sun, War
Holy Sword can be prepared as a 8th-level spell
Good Hope can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
Mark of Justice can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
Good Hope - a great party buff spell normally only available to Bard & Skald. Excellent duration that makes it in some respects superior to Haste. Stacks with BOF too. Solid for Buffer and Critter builds.
Shelyn (NG) - Air, Charm, Good, Luck, Protection
Charm Person can be prepared as a 1st-level spell
Good Hope can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
Sympathy can be prepared as a 8th-level spell [may only cast on works of art]
Charm Animal can be prepared as a 2nd-level spell
Good Sentinel boons - Haste 1/day, +2 untyped on damage rolls vs evil, Res 15 (Elec)
Irori (LN)- Healing, Knowledge, Law, Rune, Strength
Astral Projection can be prepared as a 8th-level spell
Moment of Prescience can be prepared as a 8th-level spell
Transformation can be prepared as a 6th-level spell
Haste can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
Legend Lore can be prepared as a 6th-level spell
Stone Fist can be prepared as a 1st-level spell
Good selection of spells, although Haste at 4th is probably edged out by BOF at 4th. However, Sentinel boons are very good too - including getting Haste 3/day at 5th. Finally, they get the most excellent ‘Wisdom in the Flesh’ trait - great for ‘Rogue’ Clerics.
Nethys (N) - Destruction, Knowledge, Magic, Protection, Rune
Arcane Mark can be prepared as a 0-level spell
Arcane Lock can be prepared as a 2nd-level spell
Fox's Cunning can be prepared as a 2nd-level spell
Permanency can be prepared as a 5th-level spell - this being the most noteworthy bonus.
Has both good Evangelist and Exalted boons. If you are someone going down the Blasphemy/Holy Word specialisation path then ‘Pure Magic Aura (Su)’ is potentially bordering on the insane!
Pharasma (N) - Death, Healing, Knowledge, Repose, Water
False Life can be prepared as a 2nd-level spell
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance can be prepared as a 3rd-level spell
Moment of Prescience can be prepared as a 8th-level spell
Gorum (CN) - Chaos, Destruction, Glory, Strength, War
Rage can be prepared as a 3rd-level spell
Iron Body can be prepared as a 8th-level spell
Heat Metal can be prepared as a 3rd-level spell
Lead Blades can be prepared as a 3rd-level spell
Good spells to boost several possible roles - Combat/Buff/Debuff.
Also ‘Mass Strength Surge (Su)’ Exalted boon could be outstanding if your party is martial heavy - giving all martials +1/2 your level on attack rolls and CM checks from 11th level at opportune moments could easily swing a combat.
Asmodeus (LE) - Evil, Fire, Law, Magic, Trickery
Geas, Lesser can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
Geas/Quest can be prepared as a 5th-level spell
Moderately useful spells but the REAL bonus is the Spellcasting Contract line of spells that are especially for Asmodean Clerics. Definitely one of the best buff spells in the entire game - great for the recipient and great for you too! Since you get the Ash subdomain, Asmodeus offers the potential to be very good in several of the caster roles - a Lava Gnome/Magma Ifrit Ash Theologian who has a side-line in Buffing? Just sign on that dotted line please…..
Zun Kuthon (LE) - Darkness, Death, Destruction, Evil, Law
Symbol of Pain can be prepared as a 4th-level spell (1 level earlier than normal)
Has a very good Deific Obedience - ie) Gain a +2 sacred bonus on saving throws against spells that deal hit point damage. A wide variety of uses. Also a decent set of Exalted boons.
Urgathoa (NE) - Death, Evil, Magic, Strength, War
Ghoul Touch can be prepared as a 2nd-level spell
A great deity for an Undead Lord and also for a Divine Paragon due to the Exalted boon, ‘Bolstering Channel (Su)’ - boosting all your undead minions speed by 10 ft is definitely useful.
Rovagug (CE) - Chaos, Destruction, Evil, War, Weather
Baleful Polymorph can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
What is worthwhile for a specialist build is ‘Destructive Spell (Su)’ Evangelist boon - +4 DC on any HP damaging spell and treating all rolled 1s as 2s is very good.
Kazutal (NG) - Community, Good, Liberation, Protection, Strength
Beast Shape I can be prepared as a 3rd-level spell
Beast Shape II can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
Beast Shape III can be prepared as a 5th-level spell
Good spells to boost a Combat build. Some very good Evangelist and Exalted boons, including ‘Anticipate peril 3/day’, ‘Mirror Image 2/day’ and ‘Defending Shield (Su)’ - solid deity for Buffer, Combat, Critter and Utility builds.
Milani (CG) - Chaos, Good, Healing, Liberation, Protection
Coordinated Effort can be prepared as a 3rd-level spell
Good Hope can be prepared as a 3rd-level spell
Great for Buffer builds.
Grandmother Spider (N) - Charm, Community, Darkness, Luck, Trickery
Silent Image can be prepared as a 1st-level spell
Ventriloquism can be prepared as a 1st-level spell
Spider Climb can be prepared as a 2nd-level spell
Web can be prepared as a 2nd-level spell
Good spells to boost a Utility or Control build. Excellent set of Exalted boons but also Spiked Pit 1/day from Sentinel - solid deity for Debuff, Control and Utility builds.
Naderi (N) - Charm, Nobility, Repose, Water
Confusion, Lesser can be prepared as a 1st-level spell
Crushing Despair can be prepared as a 3rd-level spell
Suffocation can be prepared as a 5th-level spell - quite a niche but potentially potent spell.
Sentinel boon, ‘Mantle of Tragic Grace (Sp)’ gets you a much more versatile form of a ‘Globe of Invulnerability’
Nivi Rhombodazzle(N) - Community, Earth, Luck, Trickery
Expeditious Excavation can be prepared as a 1st-level spell
Invisibility, Greater can be prepared as a 4th-level spell - one of the few ways a Cleric can get his hands on this easily!
Some excellent Evangelist and Exalted boons, including True strike 3/day or Haste 1/day, ‘Gambler’s Egress (Sp)’, ‘Gemstone Guardian (Sp)’ and ‘Seven-Pipped Gem (Su)’.
Groetus (CN) - Chaos, Darkness, Destruction, Madness, Void
Fear can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
Confusion, Lesser can be prepared as a 2nd-level spell [clerics with madness or void domain only]
Confusion can be prepared as a 4th-level spell [clerics with madness or void domain only]
Exalted boons are reasonably good.
Arazni (NE) - Evil, Nobility, Protection
Anticipate Peril can be prepared as a 1st-level spell
Detect Scrying can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
Mind Blank can be prepared as a 8th-level spell
Pretty good Exalted and Sentinel boons, including ‘Subliminal Intransigence (Su)’ - congrats you are now immune to Charm and Compulsion effects and get a +4 bonus vs Fear effects.
Zyphus (NE) - Death, Destruction, Evil, Plant, War
Daze can be prepared as a 0-level spell
Mage Hand can be prepared as a 0-level spell
Bungle can be prepared as a 1st-level spell
Spectral Hand can be prepared as a 2nd-level spell
A good selection of lower level bonus spells for a Utility build. Also some really good Evangelist and Exalted boons, including Break 3/day, Find Traps 2/day, or Spiked Pit 1/day and ‘Resiliency (Ex)’ or ‘Ever Vigilant (Su)’ - amazing you are now effectively protected by permanent Death Ward AND you get a +2 saving throws against effects that occur before your first turn in combat.
Dahak (CE) - Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Scalykind, Trickery
Dahak's Release can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
Draconic Ally can be prepared as a 3rd-level spell
Tail Strike can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
A solid set of Exalted boons.
Moloch (LE) - Evil, Fire, Law, War
Pyrotechnics can be prepared as a 2nd-level spell
Flame Arrow can be prepared as a 3rd-level spell
A decent obedience bonus (+4 save vs fire) and a decent set of Exalted boons, including ‘Accept the Flame (Su)’ - effectively immunity to fire at 14th level. Pretty good.
Shizuru (LG) - Glory, Good, Law, Repose, Sun
Tail Strike can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
Color Spray can be spontaneously cast as a 1st-level spell
Scorching ray can be prepared as a 2nd-level spell
Unbearable Brightness can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
Prismatic Spray can be prepared as a 7th-level spell
A very good selection of bonus spells, with especial note, the ability to spontaneously cast Color Spray. A nice obedience too (+2 sacred bonus to confirm crit and can use sword as divine focus). Some reasonably good boons but would definitely require Diverse Obedience or Evangelist PrC to make best use.
Tsukiyo (LG) - Darkness, Good, Law, Madness, Repose
Faerie Fire can be prepared as a 1st-level spell
Calm Spirit can be prepared as a 2nd-level spell
Darkvision can be prepared as a 2nd-level spell
Rainbow Pattern can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
Wandering Star Motes can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
No need to go into detail here - all the Evangelist boons are solid but ‘Collective Vision (Su)’ transforms you into a Debuff God at 11th level. Some Utility boosting spells.
Hei Feng (CN) - Air, Chaos, Destruction, Water, Weather
Gust of Wind can be prepared as a 2nd-level spell
Lightning Bolt can be prepared as a 3rd-level spell
Hydraulic Push can be prepared as a 3rd-level spell
Good spells to boost to a Blaster or Control build.
Baphomet (CE) - Animal, Chaos, Evil, Strength
Maze can be prepared as a 8th-level spell
Monstrous Physique I can be prepared as a 3rd-level spell
Monstrous Physique II can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
Monstrous Physique III can be prepared as a 5th-level spell
Monstrous Physique IV can be prepared as a 6th-level spell
Good spells to boost a Combat, Debuff or Utility build.
Deskari (CE) - Chaos, Destruction, Evil, War
Create Pit can be prepared as a 3rd-level spell
Cape of Wasps can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
Vermin Shape I can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
Vermin Shape II can be prepared as a 5th-level spell
Acid Pit can be prepared as a 6th-level spell
Good spells to boost a Control or Utility build.
Kostchtchie (CE) - Chaos, Evil, Strength, War
Hex Ward can be prepared as a 1st-level spell
Chill Metal can be prepared as a 2nd-level spell
Litany of Vengeance can be prepared as a 4th-level spell - amazing spell, with a martial heavy party can end encounters very quickly indeed - one of the few ways for a Cleric to get it on their spell list.
Good boosts to Debuff and Control builds. Interesting to note that Ice subdomain is available despite the absence of Water domain.
Angradd (LG) - Fire, Good, Law, War
Solid set of Exalted and Sentinel boons including Fireball 1/day, ‘Blazing Righteousness (Su)’ and ‘Army of One (Sp)’.
Great Old Ones / Outer Gods
Deserving of its own special section because of the famous/infamous ‘Dreamed Secrets’…… almost universally recognised as one of the most powerful feats in the game. Yes it does require a DC 20 Will save, but for a caster focussed Cleric this shouldn’t be a problem to achieve by 7th level, especially with save boosting items….etc.
As well, there a couple of deities in this pantheon that offer boons:
Xhamen-Dor (NE) - Death, Evil, Plant, Trickery
Wall of Thorns can be prepared as a 6th-level spell
Insanity can be prepared as a 7th-level spell
Some nice Sentinel boons, including Entangle 3/day and ‘Transformation Mastery (Su)’.
Hastur (CE) - Chaos, Evil, Rune, Void
Confusion can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
Insanity can be prepared as a 7th-level spell
Generally good boons in all 3 sets, including ‘Confusion Command (Su)’, Disguise Self 3/day and with the Sentinel boons, by 14th level you be immune from confusion, insanity, death and petrification effects.
Chaldira (NG) - Good, Luck, Trickery, War
Mage Hand can be prepared as a 0-level spell
Expeditious Retreat can be prepared as a 1st-level spell
Some very good Exalted and Sentinel boons, including, Lucky Miss (Sp), Prayer 1/day, Fortunate Spells (Su) or Impetuous Ardor (Su) - you now will almost never provoke an AOO when you move.
| UnArcaneElection |
Here's a biggy on deities.... could it be uploaded along with my recent tweak please!
IMPACT OF DEITY {. . .}
Erastil (LG) - Animal, Community, Good, Law, Plant
{. . .}
The Evangelist boon, Faithful Archer (Ex) - Adding WIS to hit and damage with a longbow is great even if you don’t get it till 14th level.
{. . .}
In addition, you can use Erastil's Blessing to get WIS to hit much earlier, and then you could retrain it out if you do end up getting the 14th level Evangelist boon. Although this feat works at any range, whereas the 14th level Evangelist boon only works out to 30 feet, so you might want to keep the feat anyway. If you are Human, you can get this online at 1st level even as a Cleric with no dipping. I stumbled upon this feat when putting together a Limburger (Weapons-Grade cheese) build(*) using the Hinterlander prestige class (which was meant for progressing Ranger but blows up real good if you progress Cleric, and can do the Anti-Magic Field Imbue Arrow cheese 1 level before the Caster-Centric Arcane Archer I referenced in an earlier post, even though access to Anti-Magic Field itself is not as early).
(*)Except replace the 9th level floating feat with Clustered Shots, and all level-up ability score increases go to Wisdom.
{. . .}
And did I get your edits right UnArcane?
Yes, except that my name should read as UnArcaneElection instead of the (still-)truncated version.
In the future, I might want to reorganize/reword this more for improving readability(*), but I can't work on it right now (well, I could, but then I'd get in trouble at my day/evening job . . .).
(*)Including splitting into sections reflected in the table of contents like Arkham Joker's Cleric review.
| Arkham Joker |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How's that look Arkham?
And did I get your edits right UnArcane?
Yes looks good thanks.... I have made a couple of tweaks on previous stuff to be swapped.
Next up and on its way..... ITEMS/TRAITS/FEATS.... :))
INTRODUCTION
Before I go into the Cleric ratings, I feel a prefix is required in order to understand the mechanics of what I will be discussing.
Amongst the 9th level casters, the Cleric is very unusual. On paper it seems a remarkably simple option since the core decisions are made at first level – do you channel positive or negative and what are your domains? You get to use metal armour and shields, some OK weapons, have good Fort and Will saves and OK HP.
All sounds pretty good doesn’t it? Sadly this deceptive simplicity and ‘good all-rounder’ image have led many, many players (interestingly both new and experienced alike) to be tempted down the path of ‘jack of all trades’ into the tragic realm of ‘healbot’ and/or post 5th level mediocrity. The often seen “I hate playing Clerics” or “No-one wants to play a Cleric at my table” is often down to the above misunderstanding.
Pathfinder 1st Ed does NOT reward generalisation, it rewards specialisation, and there are very few (if any) classes where this is more apparent than the Cleric. And specialisation should not be confused with “min-maxing” although there is certainly some overlap.
Before any kind of “Ratings” discussion can occur, it has to be made aware of the impact on the build of a Cleric that overall combination of deity, domain choice, archetype, ability score spread, race, items/feats/traits and FCB can make on the final result.
When looking at other 9th level casters, this combination does not occur to near the same degree. For example, how many Elf Wizards have you seen?..... I’ve lost count. For some of the 9th level casters, there really is no mechanical reason to stray away from a given race, thus simplifying the process and the build. This is not the case for the Cleric as different races can provide different advantages for any given build. The fact that a WIS bonus isn’t given in certain cases isn’t necessarily a problem – you wouldn’t find many Witch, Wizard, Arcanist or Sorceror builds where an INT or CHA bonus isn’t present.
A partial reason why this versatility exists is down to the FCB – for every single type of Cleric build that you can think of simply taking the +1hp/level that is available irrespective of race, is always a solid option. Several other of the 9th level casters are very dependent on their FCB to boost class options, whereas every single Cleric build can very easily become effectively a D10 HD full caster with no loss of overall class function. This has the knock on effect of making CON investment slightly less important - alternatively a minor investment of 12 CON makes the Cleric a D12 HD full caster. Quite a few times I have seen a Cleric with virtually the same HP as the party Fighter.
I would finally also like to address a topic that comes up all the time when discussing the merits of various casters, that of ‘spell list access’. The basic idea behind this is that the broader the list of spells you have, the better your casting options; although this sounds like a reasonable supposition, it is in fact not quite as simple. To illustrate this, I will use the Wizard and the Shaman as my main examples:
Unquestionably and rightly so, the Wizard has the best spell list in the game. There are certainly great spells on other lists (mainly the Cleric and Witch) that the Wizard doesn’t have access to, but in terms of the overall basic list, the Wizard’s is 100% the best. You may here people cry, “Ah yes, but in reality the Wizard has to buy their spells in order to scribe them into their spellbook and that means gp spent.” Although this is the case, I have never seen a Wizard that didn’t have pretty much the spells they needed on a day to day basis. However, having access to great spells is one thing, but being able to use them effectively is actually much more important.
As the great Bruce Lee said, “I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who had practiced one kick 10,000 times.’
What I am trying to illustrate is that in reality, the Wizard is very dependant on the party to keep him alive, hopefully assist with spellcasting duties and preferably just keep the bad guys well away, so they can get to do their thing.
A 8th level Wizard will on average have 28 hp + CON (+ if they chose to use FCB) and low-moderate AC - yes they can have additional defensive buffs but these take up precious action economy, are of little use in surprise situations and offer no guarantees.
If a game is being GMed properly (ie the GM doesn’t just let the Wizard stand at the back and cast unhindered), the Wizard can have it rough indeed. A Wizard who finds himself on the end of a full attacking melee/ranged martial or sneak attack Rogue/Ninja will v.quickly find themselves on the end of a terminal beat down. And interestingly combined with their lower base saves can easily become undone with a failed spell save if they haven’t invested ability score points wisely.
In summary, a Wizard’s ‘God’ status is proportional to party size - they are in their zone with >4 PCs and should start to feel nervous with <4. Obviously this observation can largely be applied to a Sorceror too.
Now we bring in the Shaman as an interesting comparative. On the surface it has the worst spell list of the 9th level casters, only 1 good save and is hugely dependant on its FCB to boost spells, with only a few races gaining access to the Cleric list and it only kicking in at 3rd level, due to the spell having to be a level lower.
Ah but I hear you cry, “What about the Arcane Enlightenment hex!?”
Yes this is on the surface a very good and versatile ability, but it makes you hugely MAD with you now needing CHA, INT and WIS. This not only requires a higher initial point buy (and God help you if you are in a rolled stats game), but also impacts on gp expenditure for items, ability score boost allocation, and the fact that the physical stats are negatively impacted which does reduce versatility.
HOWEVER in a smaller party, in comparison to the Wizard, the Shaman due to its greater overall versatility and survivability could easily be a better option. Here, having the best core spell list isn’t necessarily an advantage if you are the Wizard and more reliant on other PCs to keep you alive.
Hopefully, this shows how just focussing on spell lists can be misleading when having discussions on the 9th level casters.
So I will now discuss how the different components make an impact on the final build before finally giving a ratings breakdown.
Erastil (LG) - Animal, Community, Good, Law, Plant
The Evangelist boon, 'Faithful Archer (Ex)' - Adding WIS to hit and damage with a longbow is great even if you don’t get it till 14th level. It should be noted that WIS to hit by an Erastil Cleric can be gained much earlier via the Erastil’s Blessing feat - this then could lead onto further options depending on build priorities.
| Arkham Joker |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks again Arkham. How's that look?
Yes good... much appreciated
Have a couple of additions/tweaks for the archetypes and the items section to be added:
Foundation of Faith:
To be honest, the trade-offs vs losing channelling doesn’t IMO quite match up but then if you are going to dump CHA anyway you may as well as take this. And because you are now CON focussed, it does provide for some extra HP and Fort save gains. You do also gain the ability to add your CON bonus to CMD, concentration checks and vs Intimidate which definitely has some utility. But the gain to focus on is ‘Rooted Vitality (Su)’, and in particular the following phrasing:
At 5th level, a foundation of faith draws healing from the earth. As a swift action while standing on natural or worked stone, the foundation of faith can gain fast healing 1. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to the foundation of faith’s Constitution modifier or until the foundation of faith loses contact with the natural or worked stone. At 7th level, this ability increases to fast healing 2, and it increases by an additional point every 2 levels thereafter (to a maximum of fast healing 8 at 19th level).
Instead of gaining this fast healing herself, a foundation of faith can expend a use of this ability to instead touch up to six other creatures as a standard action to grant each creature half of the fast healing that the foundation of faith would receive (minimum fast healing 1). A recipient must be standing on natural or worked stone to receive this fast healing, and the fast healing lasts for a number of rounds equal to the foundation of faith’s Constitution modifier or until the recipient leaves contact with natural or worked stone. If one recipient loses this fast healing early, it does not affect the duration for the other targets.
This ability is usable once per day at 5th level, plus an additional time per day for every 5 levels beyond 5th.
Bearing in mind in D&D/D20 type games, you are frequently surrounded by natural or worked stone, so this ability is pretty easy to access, and even if you aren’t there is nothing stopping you carrying round a suitable piece of stone for emergency back-up (a bit cheesy I know!) The essence is that either after a big battle basically everyone in the party is healed back up to max - at 5th to 7th level, auto heal back 10 hp/minute, or if you’re a Combat build Cleric, you can switch it on during a big battle to keep yourself topped up, or you can pre-buff the party with it (standard actions gets 6 PCs activated) and then everyone wades in!
As well it stacks with Herald Caller, Divine Paragon, Devout Pilgrim or Theologian which is noteworthy.
Anglefire Apostle
I see this as a Healbot with a twist, yes with 5+CHA channels, you are obviously channel biased and with reduced spellcasting and no medium armour, this further reduces your options. However, it does have a niche space - Selective Channel and possibly Quick Channel are still probably on your list of feats. You do still get both domains which is good. A moderate investment in WIS (but certainly not a maximum) is going to be useful to claw back your lost spell slots and keep a reasonable DC for the ‘Cleansing Flames (Su)’ ability. The bolt-ons to Channelling are situationally very useful within this build, eg) being able to auto-dazzle for 1 round via ‘Channel Angelfire (Su)’ is OK and when you can AOE remove paralysis or Breath of Life at 11th (empowered if you have the Good domain) then you will be vital for your party. Variant Channelling probably has some mileage here too.
A niche archetype but could do very well as a Healer build with a secondary Buff or even Critter role with some Sacred Summons. The best of the Channel focussed archetypes. Stacks with Divine Paragon or Theologian which does open up some very interesting options.
Blossoming Light
If you are determined to become ‘Uber-Healbot’ then this is the archetype for you! You get 5+CHA for channelling straight off the bat and this goes up by 1 every 2 levels, so you’ll have channels to burn. Keep WIS to a minimum and go full on CHA focus with Selective Channel and Quick Channel obvious choices. Noble Scion of War to get CHA to Initiative might be an idea too. It doesn’t get any armour and no domain spells either, so Healing and Buffing are your only 2 real choices. Pick 2 domains that buff your healing further and give you a bit of protection too with their powers! The ability at 3rd level to auto-damage certain creature types is a bonus but certainly not guaranteed, and the other add-ons are pretty mediocre. Since you are going all in, Variant Channelling would be worth look at.
IMPACT OF ITEMS/FEATS/TRAITS
ITEMS
This section isn’t going to deal with the usual stuff that any caster will benefit from. eg) Spell Focus, Cloak of Resistance.. etc, but rather more specifically things that the Cleric as a prepared caster will benefit from. Prices quoted are for purchase cost not for crafting.
Pyxes of Redirected Focus - 1,000 gp
Once per day, a cleric (or other class with cleric domains) may activate the pyxes and may select any one of her prepared domain spells and replace it with the domain spell of that level from her other domain.
Already mentioned - this item has utility with virtually any Cleric build. By RAW seems to be extremely good for an Ecclesitheurge. Can have multiple of these.
Icon of Aspects - 5,500 gp
When a cleric with an icon of aspects prepares spells, she may replace the granted powers of one of her domains with those of a different domain she doesn’t have but that is associated with her deity. This lasts until the next time she prepares spells. The cleric must meet the level requirements for both abilities.
This again has utility for virtually any build, but would be especially useful for a single domain archetype that maybe had great spells but not to good abilities. Since you can have more than one, it allows a two domain Cleric to ensure that they have both the best domains for spells and those for domain powers.
Headband of Fortune's Favor - 7700 gp
Already discussed - this item has such great synergy with the Luck domain and Varisian/Devout Pilgrim that I would consider it over the standard Headband of Inspired Wisdom for that specific build.
Pearl of Power - varies gp
Essential for any prepared caster but specifically very useful for any Cleric build stuck with 1 domain slot per level. IMO only financially worth it up to 3rd level spells.
Cauldron of Overwhelming Allies - 4,500 gp
The artistic scrawls on the dark surface of this small bronze cauldron depict an array of exotic animals, legendary beasts, leering fiends, and hosts of elementals. Once per day, if used as the focus or divine focus for a summon monster or summon nature’s ally spell, the cauldron automatically conjures 1d3 additional creatures of the same kind from the next lower level list.
Almost hilariously powerful and completely understandable why it is PFS banned!!
Incense of Meditation - 4,900 gp
When a divine spellcaster lights a block of incense of meditation and then spends 8 hours praying and meditating nearby, the incense enables him to prepare all his spells as though affected by the Maximize Spell feat. However, all the spells prepared in this way are at their normal level, not at three levels higher (as with the regular metamagic feat).
Powerful but pricey for something with 1 use. Nevertheless with CWI and at higher levels this could take a Theologian Blaster build to a whole new level!
Candle of Invocation - 8,400 gp
Each of these special tapers is dedicated to one of the nine alignments. Simply burning the candle generates a favorable aura for the individual if the candle’s alignment matches that of the character. Characters of the same alignment as the burning candle add a +2 morale bonus on Attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks while within 30 feet of the flame.
A cleric whose alignment matches the candle’s operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him As if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. Except in special cases (see below), a candle burns for 4 hours. It is possible to extinguish the candle simply by blowing it out, so users often place it in a lantern to protect it from drafts And the like. Doing this doesn’t interfere with its magical properties.
In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell, the respondent being of the same alignment as the candle, but the taper is immediately consumed in the process.
This is a very decent Cleric item with several benefits, however, the most interesting option by RAW appears to be that you can as a Cleric have 4 days where you have the number of spells of a Cleric 2 levels higher than you are. It takes 1 hour meditation to gain your spells, and the candle lasts 4 hours with the option to blow it out at any time - 4 hours = 4 prep sessions. The option where you actually gain a higher level of spells and not just quantity, isn’t worth it IMO. As an example, a 7th level Cleric who uses this would gain an additional 2nd, 3rd and 4th level spell for that day, due to being counted as 9th level. Pretty neat.
Summoner’s Idol - 50 gp
These depictions of forgotten spirits can be used to augment summoning magic. If used as an additional material component for any summon monster or summon nature’s ally spell, the summoned creature has an additional +2 hit points per Hit Die.
Insanely good value for money. At 50 gp you could easily afford to use these once or twice a day and reap the benefits.
Prayer Bead of Karma - 36,200 gp
Wearer casts his spells at +4 caster level. Effect lasts 10 minutes.
A pretty expensive item to buy outright - a perfect example of why CWI is so good! If you can get one this has obvious uses, especially for a build looking to optimise Blasphemy/Holy Word or even things like Spell Resistance.
Wizards Hook - 4310 gp
A wizard hook is a +1 hook hand and a useful item for any arcane spellcaster.
Although a wizard hook does not allow for fine manipulation, it is infused with magic that bolsters somatic components—you can use a hand stump outfitted with a wizard hook to fulfill any somatic components for casting arcane spells. A wizard hook also grants proficiency in its use as a weapon. You can make touch attacks with spells using a wizard hook, either by making a normal attack with the hook (in which case it deals normal hook hand damage plus the spell effect), or by making a touch attack with the hook (in which case you gain a +4 bonus on the attack roll and the save DC of the spell increases by +1, but you do not do hook hand damage).
A very good item for a bad touch/debuff Cleric build. Essential for a user of ‘Vision of Madness (Sp)’.
Metamagic Rod, Reach - varies in gp
An obvious choice for landing any touch spells at a distance.
Poratble Altar - 250 gp
Previously mentioned - ties in perfectly with the Craft Magic Arms and Armour ----> Create Reliquary Arms and Shields ----> Desecrate spell combo with the Undead Lord archetype.
Yes it’s a 2 feat investment, but overall it has a huge benefit for any summoned undead and necromancy in general - i.e.) +6 profane bonus to negative channeled energy DCs, +2 profane bonus to hit/damage/saves, +2 hit points per HD for undead created in the area and finally with an Animate Dead spell, you can create 4 HD of undead/caster level vs 2 the usual HD/caster level.
| UnArcaneElection |
^I would consider the use of a Candle of Invocation for casting a spell of higher level than you can normally cast to be a good thing to have in an emergency. You're probably not going to be using that in combat (absent some special set-up that will be hard to replicate), but you could potentially get good use of it for casting some bad status removal(*) or even divination spell that you can't normally cast.
(*)Remember that at some levels this includes the bad status of being dead.
If you anticipate needing to cast Gates, reserve Candles of Invocation that are almost used up for this purpose, since using one to cast Gate uses it up completely, but it doesn't say that it has to have a certain minimum burning time left.
| Arkham Joker |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Arkham -- I added those archetype updates & items.
Sorry for the delay, I was away for a couple weekends in a row and must have missed this when it came in.
Cheers.
No problem - cheers for the work!
A couple of tweaks and the latest batch of stuff...... the end is in sight!!
Phylactery of Positive/Negative Channeling - 11,000 gp
If your GM is allowing slots to have more than one ability, then fine go for it, but even then IMO only if you are a focussed channeling archetype or an Undead Lord. Otherwise a WIS headband will overall give you more power in the long run.
Channeling Armour - 18,000 gp
A shield with this special ability is crafted to resemble an angel or other outsider holding a basin of some sort, and is engraved with holy symbols. The shield is keyed to either positive or negative energy when it is crafted. If the bearer can channel energy of the keyed type, three times per day he can increase the total number of dice of channeled energy by 1. The wearer also reduces any damage taken from energy of the type opposed to the keyed type by 10 points.
Pricey, but definitely worth considering if you’re an Undead Lord.
FEATS AND TRAITS
Dreamed Secrets
Already mentioned - an excellent choice for any pure caster-focussed Cleric. Well worth maxing out your WILL save for. Interesting back story on it - it was apparently devised by none other than James Jacobs himself, who is a big fan of Lovecraft. The feat is technically PFS legal, but due to the bizarre mess up by Paizo with making GOO/OG worship non-PFS, it has become non-PFS friendly, despite having an entire AP (Strange Aoens) dedicated to the genre…. What a mess!
Consecrate Spell (Metamagic)
Prerequisites: Aasimar, able to prepare or cast consecrate.
Phenomonal for an Aasimar Cleric and definitely throws in another race option for a Theologian. Since it only uses up a spell slot 2 levels higher, instead of the normal 3, it means that it can be metamagic reduced down to evens. Being able to cast Maximised Fireballs from Level 5 against anything evil is very good indeed. Stacked with Idealist (Plane of Fire) and with Spell Specialisation and and you can be throwing out 120 hp Fireballs at 8th level……. Oooooouuuuuuch.
Elemental Spell (Metamagic)
If you’re going full on ‘Fireball Cleric’ then you really do need to pick this one up to give you that much needed versatility.
Improved Initiative
Always a solid choice for any caster, or pretty much any player TBH.
Reactionary
Similar reasons to the above.
Sacred Summons
Yes it does restrict your summoning options, but not massively so. And most summoning builds would want to utilise Summon Good/Evil/Neutral Monster anyway which does mitigate the restrictions and provide some extras (eg Diehard feat). There aren’t many classes that can get standard action summons, and as a general rule it’s better to get extra bodies on the field quickly than get slightly more powerful bodies slower. As well, many deities provide bonus summoned creature options for Clerics.
Augment Summons
Yes you get this free as a Herald Caller, but potentially still worth the investment (+ the Spell Focus pre-requisite) for other Cleric builds.
Vile Domain
Your connection with a malignant force has granted you great power. Choose a domain granted by an evil aligned deity, such as an archdevil, demon lord, or Great Old One. You gain a +1 trait bonus to your caster level when casting spells that are granted by that domain.
Very under the radar trait - now here’s the crafty bit, it would require getting the ‘Extra Traits’ feat as both of your initial traits are going to be MM reducers, but for an Lava Gnome/Magma Ifrit Fire/Ash Theologian it represents another way to get your CL up for casting those Fireballs!
Magical Lineage and/or Wayang Spellhunter
Absolute musts for a Blaster/Theologian build, but could also be useful for an Ecclesitheurge if they fancied dabbling with blasting and maybe combine it with Elemental Spell or even a Vanilla Cleric that wanted to boost a Debuff spell like Hallucinogenic Smoke or Greater Forbid Action with Persistent Spell.
Scribe Scroll / Craft Wand
Great feats for any Cleric due to the size and versatility of the basic spell list and the fact that they automatically know all the spells on it. Would be of course particularly good for an Ecclesitheurge.
Combat Reflexes
I am not a huge fan of Reach builds as their damage output just doesn’t merit the investment IMO, especially as you level up. There are occasional exceptions though, a great example would be the previously discussed use of the Plant subdomain, or any build that made heavy use of Enlarge Person spell.
Divine Interference
Well known for basically being a must-have feat - forcing rerolls at a penalty is a definite lifesaver, even if you only sacrifice a 1st level spell.
Beacon of Faith (Trait)
Potentially worth it to cast a domain spell like Holy Word/Blasphemy/Spell Resistance, even if it’s only 1/day.
Heedful Readiness (Trait)
It’s only 1/day but adding WIS to initiative could be a game changer in a big battle.
Fate's Favored (Trait)
Always great.
Mother's Rage (Trait)
Lamashtu specific, but a +1 on Survival checks and a +1 on CL for Summon Monster spells is good straight from Level 1.
Accelerated Drinker (Trait)
If you have the Alchemy subdomain, everyone in the party should get this trait. Move action potion drinking is great.
VARIOUS CHANNEL BOOSTING FEATS/TRAITS
Unless you are a Channel specialist or Undead Lord, none of these are really worth it IMO. Clerics are feat starved already! As a general rule with Channelling, the benefits are only there if you are all in or all out. Making your Cleric much SADer is great overall for caster builds.
The only exception is Herald Caller which basically receives a free ‘improved’ Selective Channel for use on summoned critters and so doesn’t have to invest as much in order to make Channelling viable in the first place. Picking up ‘Undead Lord does get Command Undead as a bonus feat and a choice of Channel Smite, Extra Channel, Improved Channel, Quick Channel, Skeleton Summoner or Undead Master at 10th level.
Extra Channel - could be worth it as it gives a CHA 10 Cleric, 5 channels instead of 3 and so saves ability score points. But do you have the spare feats??
Improved Channel - for an Undead Lord could be excellent. Factoring in the other stuff your neg channel DC is now 19 + CHA + ½ Cleric level. Try and save that *(&^%$! Throw on some D6 boosters and your damage starts to become half decent too.
Quick Channel - probably only worth it for a real Channel specialist as although useful will really chew through your daily uses.
Channel Viciousness - Potentially very good as an extra 2D6 on melee weapon damage for CHA mod in minutes has real use even for a lower CHA build.
Fateful Channel - anything offering re-rolls is always worth considering, especially since it only burns the standard 1 channel to use.
Protective Channel - Prot Evil is an excellent spell and so being able to hand it out on top of the healing effect is solid. The only downside is the need to have a 7D6 channel.
Sacred Conduit (Trait) - like before, go for it if you are an all in Channeler and want that +1DC, otherwise forget it.
| UnArcaneElection |
Using this as the large nucleus of a stand-alone Cleric guide actually sounds like a good idea . . . .
| Arkham Joker |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Using this as the large nucleus of a stand-alone Cleric guide actually sounds like a good idea . . . .
Great minds think alike!... I was thinking that the other day too!
Here is a start on the rating section, it would be interesting to get feedback on the logic behind it. I do feel that how I've dealt with the 'minimum end of the range' bit is the correct methodology for the 9th level casters in general, as you have to look at it as a 'bare bones' idea.
RATINGS
Finally we reach the end! This section I found very tricky to complete due to the aforementioned numerous interactions between all the components of ‘the Cleric’.
When coming up with a range for the various roles, I decided that the lower/minimum end of the range would represent just looking at the basic spell list, class chassis and nothing else. I don’t factor in any of the domains, channelling, archetypes, spontaneous heal/harm, armour… etc since these are all things that can be altered when going through a build.
You have to view the minimum end of the range as what the class could still do in that role, even if it was completely built for another role entirely. Human would be used as the basic race choice.
For example, thinking of the Cleric in the ‘Combat’ role and looking at the minimum end of the range:
You have the spell list, human, D8 hp/level, ¾ BAB, minimum of 2+ INT skill points/level, good FORT and WIS, poor REFLEX and a choice of +1 hp/+1 skill point/level. Nothing else can be factored in since these can all vary enormously, and/or be traded out via a specific archetype.
However, and this is key, for the upper/maximum end of the range, everything is factored in since if you were specifically building a ‘Combat Cleric’ then you would be looking to modify all the variables in order to perform optimally.
COMBAT
Rating: 6 - 9
At a minimum the Cleric can have an effective D10 HD/level and have good levels in the 2 most important saves. As a ¾ BAB full caster it is able to hit in melee reasonably OK in the low to mid-levels and have no trouble at all with touch attacks.
Spells that can be directly useful in the role include amongst others, BOF, Channel Vigor, Bulls Strength… etc, Bless, Burning Disarm, Liberating Command, FOM, Prot Evil, Greater Magic Weapon, Aid, Righteous Might, Grace and Ironskin.
At the maximum, the Cleric is right at the top of the tree for 9th level casters. It has the best basic chassis for combat, best basic spell list for a combat built caster, and due to the possible combos can be potent in melee or ranged combat.
For example, a fully armoured Dwarf Vanilla Cleric with Animal and Liberation domains can have an AC tiger, be virtually “un-debuffable” with very good AC, hp and saves. Or you have a Cleric of Erastil with Animal and Plant and start with Enlarge Person antics and/or flying around on a Roc using a Longbow with Erastil’s Blessing - both could be enhanced with Foundation of Faith for on-tap in-combat healing. As you have seen, there are numerous other possible combat permutations - eg) use of Mirror Image or Samsaran for extra combat spells from Inquisitor.
I am sorely tempted to give it full marks, but both Oracle and Druid can make excellent Combat builds too, so I was uncertain. Its very close though.
| Northern Spotted Owl |
Well I just wrote an arcanist guide, so I can probably get a crack at that one, and I'm a little obsessed with the oracle so ya know...maybe two for two? But I've already done a bunch and don't want to hog them!
I've been reading Arcanist guides (including yours), since we don't have an entry yet. Feel free to write up a contribution if you're inclined. I'd certainly welcome it. Or Oracle, whatever grabs you.
| UnArcaneElection |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
{. . .}
You have the spell list, human, D8 hp/level, ¾ BAB, minimum of 2+ INT skill points/level, {. . .}
Fortunately, it's actually even better than that.
{. . .}
Skilled: Humans gain 1 additional skill rank at 1st level and 1 additional rank whenever they gain a level.
{. . .}
So if you didn't trade it out, you get 3+ INT skill points/level. (And if you are going to trade it out, you have some pretty good alternative options -- just DON'T be a Poison Minion, whatever you do -- repeat after me: "I am not a minion . . .").
| Arkham Joker |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A tweak and another section for you all..... thoughts always welcome!
Consecrate Spell (Metamagic)
Prerequisites: Aasimar, able to prepare or cast consecrate.
Phenomonal for an Aasimar Cleric and definitely throws in another race option for a Theologian. Since it only uses up a spell slot 2 levels higher, instead of the normal 3, it means that it can be metamagic reduced down to evens. Being able to cast Maximised Fireballs from Level 5 against anything evil is very good indeed. Stacked with Idealist (Plane of Fire) and with Spell Specialisation and you can be throwing out auto 72 hp Fireballs at 8th level……. Oooooouuuuuuch.
HEAL
Rating: 8 - 10
Firstly, I would include ‘Condition Removal’ as part of a ‘Healing’ builds parameters.
At a minimum, the basic chassis due to its survivability, enables you to get into harms way in order to heal allies (a key aspect often overlooked), and you also get all the best healing and condition removal spells at the earliest opportunity. Simples.
At the maximum, you can now add on a wide variety of Channelling options, spontaneous healing and archetypes that focus heavily on expanding healing options.
IMO the Angelfire Apostle, although it may not offer the greatest number of channels per day, it gets 5+ CHA which is very decent. It can use a degree of armour which boosts survivability and has both domains. With the ‘Healing’ domain, and without even touching any spell slots, at 11th level you can throw out 7.5 D8 + 16 hp channel heals to all your party members and restore to life any recently slain allies. If you have the ‘Liberation’ domain too, your allies will worship the ground you walk on!!
The following gives an overview of the various channel options available:
At 5th level, the Angelfire Apostle can spend two uses of his channel energy ability to cast remove blindness/deafness or lesser restoration as a spell-like ability.
At 7th level, he can choose remove disease or remove paralysis.
At 9th level, he can choose neutralize poison.
At 11th level, he can choose breath of life.
At 13th level, he can choose heal.
At 15th level, he can choose regenerate.
At 17th level, he can choose restoration but cannot affect permanent negative levels.
At 19th level, he can choose resurrection but can affect only a target that has been dead no more than 1 round per his cleric level.
When you throw on Variant Channelling (and Channelling Variance) you are the undisputed Healing/Condition Removal monster.
| Arkham Joker |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Here's another...... feedback/agree/disagree always welcome!
BUFF
Rating: 7 - 10
At a minimum, many of the spells that can be directly useful in the ‘Combat’ role also apply to a ‘Buff’ role. In addition, amongst others, spells like Spell Resistance, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Defending Bone, Effortless Armour, Profane Nimbus, Instrument of Agony, Life Bubble, Weapon of Awe, Second Wind, Spell Immunity and Death Ward are also of use to yourself or others. Since part of ‘Buffing’ involves keeping allies optimal during a combat, I would also include the ‘Mass’ healing spells and ones like Infernal/Celestial healing in this list. In short, you will always have a solid ability to buff yourself and others, irrespective of your build priorities or character set-up.
To illustrate the Cleric’s ability at the maximum end of the scale, I have chosen the Varisian/Devout Pilgrim as my example. As previously discussed this archetype has extremely useful ability in the ‘Buffing’ role due to its Caravan Bond and Harrow skills. Various domain abilities have a strong ‘anti-debuff’ effect, and since this is akin to buffing someone as it makes them very hard to take down in combat, the ability to hand these out at range to your allies is very useful.
Other abilities like ‘Copycat’, ‘Dimension Hop’, ‘Enlarge’, ‘Vision of Madness’, ‘Bit of Luck’, ‘Adoration’. ‘Destructive Smite’ or ‘Fury of the Abyss’ can now make for some excellent party buffing. And as many of these are 3+WIS/day you can get plenty of mileage without even touching your spell slots, especially if you choose a race that gives extra uses of domain abilities (eg Dwarf or Elf).
As well if you wanted it, the Foundation of Faith archetype stacks with it, thus providing the potential for some easy in-combat healing for your allies! And being that you don’t necessarily have to max-out on WIS for this build type, then choosing a race like Catfolk to gain access to the amazing spell ‘Nine Lives’ could be worth it if you knew you’d get some high level play in.
The cherry on the cake is ‘Blessing of the Harrow’ (for yourself or an ally) at 8th level which replaces your choice of an 8th level domain power:
Blessing of the Harrow (Su): Once per day, a harrower may perform a harrowing for herself and all allies within 20 feet of her. This harrowing takes 10 minutes, and allies to be affected by it must remain within 20 feet of the harrower for the entire time. At the conclusion of the harrowing, count up the number of cards from each suit that were used in the reading. This harrowing provides a bonus based upon the suit with the most cards showing. In case of a tie, choose one suit. The bonus lasts for 24 hours. The suits grant insight bonuses as follows. Strength: +1 on attack rolls; Dexterity: +1 to AC; Constitution: +1 on weapon damage rolls; Intelligence: +1 on all skill checks; Wisdom: +1 on all saving throws; Charisma: +1 on caster level and concentration checks.
Varisian Pilgrim must be one of the most (if not the most) under the radar archetypes in the entire game.
An unsurpassed buffing beast if you know what you’re doing (reading this guide is a good start!).
| Northern Spotted Owl |
Here's another...... feedback/agree/disagree always welcome!
Thanks Arkham.
In terms of feedback & such, I'm waiting until we have an overview for each of the core classes. I'm not holding out as much hope for the psychic. From there I think we'll want to go back and rebalance a bit.
Let's say (for the sake of argument) that the brown-fur transmuter truly is the best at buffing, and by a meaningful margin. Then perhaps we need to downgrade others to 8s or 9s. On that other hand, if they're really pretty close then we could reasonably have multiple classes with a 10s.
Cheers
| Arkham Joker |
Thanks Arkham.In terms of feedback & such, I'm waiting until we have an overview for each of the core classes. I'm not holding out as much hope for the psychic. From there I think we'll want to go back and rebalance a bit.
Let's say (for the sake of argument) that the brown-fur transmuter truly is the best at buffing, and by a meaningful margin. Then perhaps we need to downgrade others to 8s or 9s. On that other hand, if they're really pretty close then we could reasonably have multiple classes with a 10s.
Cheers
Yes that makes sense. I do also think a clarification on how we approach the minimum end of the range needs to be addressed otherwise it invalidates that particular rating concept and we may as well not have it.
The minimum end needs to be how the bare bones of the class chassis could perform in that role and NOTHING more. If there are abilities and options that are traded away in various different archetypes then that by definition is not the bare bones since they are not a common point of reference.
| Northern Spotted Owl |
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Thanks Arkham.In terms of feedback & such, I'm waiting until we have an overview for each of the core classes. I'm not holding out as much hope for the psychic. From there I think we'll want to go back and rebalance a bit.
Let's say (for the sake of argument) that the brown-fur transmuter truly is the best at buffing, and by a meaningful margin. Then perhaps we need to downgrade others to 8s or 9s. On that other hand, if they're really pretty close then we could reasonably have multiple classes with a 10s.
Cheers
Yes that makes sense. I do also think a clarification on how we approach the minimum end of the range needs to be addressed otherwise it invalidates that particular rating concept and we may as well not have it.
The minimum end needs to be how the bare bones of the class chassis could perform in that role and NOTHING more. If there are abilities and options that are traded away in various different archetypes then that by definition is not the bare bones since they are not a common point of reference.
That sounds generally right to me. I think the low end should reflect a general-purpose character of that class that is not poorly built. But it probably shouldn't reflect the worst case, e.g. for the cleric an acclesitheurge's rating on melee combat.
| Arkham Joker |
That sounds generally right to me. I think the low end should reflect a general-purpose character of that class that is not poorly built. But it probably shouldn't reflect the worst case, e.g. for the cleric an acclesitheurge's rating on melee combat.
Yes its not about the worst case.
But for example on the spreadsheet, the Druid is given an 8-10 range on Combat. With the justification for the minimum based on the fact they can Wildshape - but this is a class component that can be traded out and so can't contribute to the minimum end of the range. It would be part of the maximum end absolutely, but it doesn't represent the "bare bones" of the chassis.
In a similar way how none of my minimum scores factor in armour or domains for example since these vary tremendously and/or can be traded out. I don't even include spont heal/harms!!!
| Arkham Joker |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A couple of tweaks/additions and the latest chunk....
Human: Floating +2
Humans are a popular choice for Clerics, especially since they receive Bonus Feat and Skilled. In a class that is both feat and skill starved this is always a solid choice. Overall, a Human can be used for any of the roles and in particular ones that would benefit from the extra feat (eg Critters, Blaster).
Also Clerics are unique amongst the classes in that they can receive a very good alternative FCB if they are Human, namely:
Add a +1 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome the spell resistance of outsiders.
This is excellent since Spell Resistance is one of the banes of a caster’s life at higher levels, and this massively increases your casting potency. And you don’t have to take it every level either to reap its benefits……… An often overlooked bonus.
Suitable archetypes: All and probably especially so with more feat intensive options like Herald Caller, Theologian, Ecclesitheurge.
Divine Scourge
An interesting archetype, attempting to introduce a ‘Witchy/Hex’ element into the Cleric class - in reality it gives up too much/too restrictive for what it receives in return…… a common theme with many Cleric archetypes!
HOWEVER, if you are determined to become a specialist de-buffer Cleric then there are some plus points:
1) By RAW a worshipper of any deity can take it
2) The Curse sub-domain, whilst definitely being one of the more mediocre, does have a couple of good domain spells and ‘Malign Eye (Su)’, which would be of use if you are specialising in your
de-buff spells.
3) It trades out Channelling for some hexes. You can pick up ‘Slumber’ at 3rd level if you want which is one of the best Witch hexes in the game and certainly ‘spamworthy’ at the low-mid levels! Also ‘Evil Eye (Su)’ is generally good for helping you AND your allies land their offensive spells, especially when it gets boosted to a -4 penalty at 8th. However, it is a mind-affecting effect so there will be an increasing number of opponents immune to it as you level up….. still pretty useful though.
Overall, a bit like Blossoming Light in that you give up too much to become a specialist. The only real highlights for me are the ability to pick up ‘Slumber’ and ‘Evil Eye’ hexes at the lower levels which are good, but you could probably do a better de-buff build using other methods. It’s OK, but a bit…. MEH!
Death
Here the ‘Undead’ subdomain gets you ‘Ghoul Touch’ and ‘Enervation’ as useful domain spells and ‘Death’s Kiss (Su)’ enables you at 1st level to start healing from Neg. Channelling if you want to. Solid for any Necromancer/De-buff build and a natural fit for Undead Lord.
DE-BUFF
Rating 7 - 9
At a minimum, although the Cleric spell list may not have the sheer volume of de-buff spells that the Wiz list does or the innate breadth/depth of hexes of the Witch, the ones it does have a very good.
Bane, Barbed Chains, Burning Disarm, Command (+Greater), Doom, Forbid Action (+Greater), Hallucinogenic Smoke, Murderous Command, Ray of Sickening, Hold Person, Silence, Burst of Radiance, Chains of Light, Archon’s Aura, Bestow Curse (+Major), Charitable Impulse, Light of Iomedae, Prayer, Debilitating Portent, Plane Shift, Symbol of Sleep/Pain, Wall of Blindness/Deafness, Banishment, Plague Storm, Wither Limb, Archon’s Trumpet, Energy Drain, Anti-Life Shell, Anti-Magic Field, Source Severance and Holy Word/Blasphemy are all very solid spells that cover the full range of levels.
From a maximising perspective, and from my own personal experience, the following can not only be encounter-ending at their appropriate levels, but in certain cases definitely worth investing in MM feats/traits (eg Persistent Spell, Reach Spell).
Burning Disarm, Silence, Burst of Radiance, Hold Person, Bestow Curse, Greater Forbid Action, Plane Shift, Holy Word/Blasphemy.
As well, Investing in CL boosting feats/traits/items and using Holy Word/Blasphemy can basically trivialise encounters, especially if you’re a Human Cleric utilising the alternative FCB. On a different approach, Variant Channelling offers the possibility of Rulership and its ‘Dazing Channel’ harm effect, although this does require a specialist negative channeller to work properly which can be tricky in terms of return in investment (outside of Undead Lord).
Using the ‘Samsaran template’ and the Hunter spell list can boost your lower level de-buff options with any of the following:
Entangle, Hydraulic Push, Ice Slick, Sickening Entanglement, Earth Tremor, Blast of Wind, Geyser
Several domains and deities (see previous section) offer some excellent de-buff boosters - here are some examples:
Fire(Ash) - Wall of Ashes. Simply excellent. A great supernatural effect that because it auto-scales as you level up, is in many ways superior to similar spells. A mass blinding effect with counter-invisibility and line of sight blocking ability, that is unlikely to run out of uses in an adventuring day - its better than many of the hexes available.
Madness - Vision of Madness. Everyone knows about this - a no save ability that auto scales. It’s only drawback, the need for melee touch, is negated in the famous/infamous Divine Paragon of Tsukiyo build, turning it into a multi-target hell spell for anyone on the receiving end!
Sun (Light) - Blinding Flash. A great AOE ability straight from Level 1 that will be very useful for targeting mooks and thus saving spells.
In summary, a Cleric can make a very good de-buffer in several ways. Overall a Witch will on average have the wider variety of options through the levels due to the fact that their hexes give such great mileage, but a specialist Cleric will run them close thanks to the basic spell list having some excellent options alongside all the other stuff. A Divine Scourge possibly gives it a bit of a boost, but overall it’s a marginal call in terms of its worth as an archetype.
| UnArcaneElection |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A couple of tweaks/additions and the latest chunk....
Human: Floating +2
Humans are a popular choice for Clerics, especially since they receive Bonus Feat and Skilled. In a class that is both feat and skill starved this is always a solid choice. Overall, a Human can be used for any of the roles and in particular ones that would benefit from the extra feat (eg Critters, Blaster).
Also Clerics are unique amongst the classes in that they can receive a very good alternative FCB if they are Human, namely:
{. . .}
Tieflings also get this. Generic Tiefling (+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma) is only okay for Cleric, but Asura-Spawn/Faultspawn (+2 Dex, +2 Wis, –2 Int), Demodand-Spawn/Foulspawn (+2 Con, +2 Wis, –2 Int), Devil-Spawn/Hellspawn (2 Con, +2 Wis, –2 Cha), Oni-Spawn/Hungerseed (+2 Str, +2 Wis, –2 Cha), and Qlippoth-Spawn/The Motherless (+2 Str, +2 Wis, –2 Int) can all work well, although you're going to be hurting for either skill points or Charisma. As an added bonus, you can trade out the once per day Spell-Like Ability and the Fiendish Sorcery that you aren't going to use for the Soul Seer alternate trait, which gives you at-will Deathwatch, which if nothing else, lets you find out who's still alive and who's actually Undead. If you have a tail, you also qualify for the Grasping Tail feat for handling items such as Metamagic Rods; or you can trade out Fiendish Sorcery for a Prehensile Tail (which the Grasping Tail feat semi-stacks with, although probably not so usefully for most Clerics), and trade out the Spell-Like Ability for any of several other alternate features.
Also, since for some reason this guide hasn't yet appeared in the Guide to the Guides, here are the links again since I didn't see them on this page:
- •The
•The
| Arkham Joker |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Tieflings also get this.
Cheers.....a Tiefling Cleric probably isn't going to make that much of an impact on any build, but the ability to grab the alternative FCB, still get a +2 on WIS, as well as some interesting options.....eg) Prehensile Tail for permanent wand carrying or Soul Seer (enormously thematic for any necromancer/Undead Lord) certainly warrants a mention. I put it in the next update.
LOL....The fact that one of the Subraces is actually a 'Hellspawn' is great just by itself! Todd McFarlane would be proud!
| Northern Spotted Owl |
In a similar way how none of my minimum scores factor in armour or domains for example since these vary tremendously and/or can be traded out. I don't even include spont heal/harms!!!
I do think scores should reflect reasonably well-built characters. In the case of a cleric, a couple better than average domains and spontaneous healing/harms.
| Arkham Joker |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I do think scores should reflect reasonably well-built characters. In the case of a cleric, a couple better than average domains and spontaneous healing/harms.
Well then we have a bit of a problem!!
My minimum rating doesn't factor in anything except the skeleton of the chassis.... not even armour!
Saying a minimum score should reflect "reasonably well-built characters" is highly subjective and certainly not something that can be standardised. Comparing the bare chassis of each class is a lot easier to quantify.
This is in essence what the 'Minimum' score is describing...
You have a specialised/maximised 'Blaster' of Class X. Even with this specialisation how well could it also still perform in the Heal/Buff/Utility/Combat... etc role?
ie) Even in the worst case scenario, what is the class capable of doing in the role X?
The only way you can rate this 'minimum ability' is by looking at the bare bone chassis (HD, BAB, spell list.. etc), as this represents its minimum level of capability in any other given role.
The bare bones score will vary slightly between different roles because of the nature of the class, Eg) a Cleric will have a significantly higher minimum score in the 'Heal' role than it will in the 'Blaster' role, due to its spell list not having as many blast spells as heal/condition removal and having a more survivable chassis, which is more useful in the 'Heal' role as you will need to be able to get to your allies if they are in need of help.
My logic is sound.
As it stands all of my Cleric minimum scores would need increasing if we used your metric! This would be very misleading IMO.
Until we get some sort of agreement between all the contributors, could you remove all the minimum scores from my guide please. If we're not all singing from the same hymn sheet then any rating is pointless!
Cheers
| Northern Spotted Owl |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
I do think scores should reflect reasonably well-built characters. In the case of a cleric, a couple better than average domains and spontaneous healing/harms.Well then we have a bit of a problem!!
My minimum rating doesn't factor in anything except the skeleton of the chassis.... not even armour!
Saying a minimum score should reflect "reasonably well-built characters" is highly subjective and certainly not something that can be standardised. Comparing the bare chassis of each class is a lot easier to quantify.
This is in essence what the 'Minimum' score is describing...
You have a specialised/maximised 'Blaster' of Class X. Even with this specialisation how well could it also still perform in the Heal/Buff/Utility/Combat... etc role?
ie) Even in the worst case scenario, what is the class capable of doing in the role X?
The only way you can rate this 'minimum ability' is by looking at the bare bone chassis (HD, BAB, spell list.. etc), as this represents its minimum level of capability in any other given role.
The bare bones score will vary slightly between different roles because of the nature of the class, Eg) a Cleric will have a significantly higher minimum score in the 'Heal' role than it will in the 'Blaster' role, due to its spell list not having as many blast spells as heal/condition removal and having a more survivable chassis, which is more useful in the 'Heal' role as you will need to be able to get to your allies if they are in need of help.
My logic is sound.
As it stands all of my Cleric minimum scores would need increasing if we used your metric! This would be very misleading IMO.
Until we get some sort of agreement between all the contributors, could you remove all the minimum scores from my guide please. If we're not all singing from the same hymn sheet then any rating is pointless!
Cheers
Arkham, I don't think we're that far apart here. To my mind the minimum should still reflect a reasonable vanilla cleric.
- 9th level casting
- channeling
- spontaneous healing
- simple weapons, medium armor, shields
The most boring cleric, just assume the player opened a cleric guide and on the blue/green/orange/red scale they made a bunch of "green" choices, with no archetype. What's a reasonable value for that guy/gal?
Cheers,
Owl
| Arkham Joker |
Arkham, I don't think we're that far apart here. To my mind the minimum should still...
We're way apart I'm afraid.
This isn't just about the Cleric this is about the concept of ratings for all the classes.... in order to have a "minimum" rating there MUST BE a measure/metric that can be applied equally to any of the classes, otherwise its a nonsense and meaningless.
The only way this can be done is to literally and logically view 'Minimum' as...
In the worst case scenario how could Class X perform in Role Y?
In all cases, the minimum (aka worst case) ability of the caster class in any given role is represented and determined by only its spell list, BAB, HD, standard feat/trait allocation and use of Human as the standardised race for comparative purposes.
Any factors that can be traded out in Archetypes.. etc cannot by definition be viewed as the "minimum".
The 'minimum' is defined as the factors that can be always present in any given build and role.
For example with the Wizard, its bonus feats cannot be part of the minimum as there are many archetypes that trade these out in varying degrees.
Please take out my Minimum scores ASAP. I wont be putting any Minimum scores in any more until at the very least there is a mutually agreed upon definition amongst all the contributors.
The amount of time and effort I've put it in will not be wasted!
Cheers mate
| Northern Spotted Owl |
We're way apart I'm afraid.
Please take out my Minimum scores ASAP. I wont be putting any Minimum scores in any more until at the very least there is a mutually agreed upon definition amongst all the contributors....
The amount of time and effort I've put it in will not be wasted!
Cheers mate
I'll take out your lower end scores. I think we might be running into a terminology issue. My goal was to give a sense of where a reasonable build of the given class falls. E.g. wizard/combat 1-2
And where the wizard could move up to with a good build that's focused on melee, maybe leaning into polymorph heavily. As a pure wizard (since you should probably be headed for eldritch knight for a polymorph focused character) that's maybe a 4 or 5.
That is, we've been aiming for a reasonable idea of where the class falls and how good it can be, but not getting into how bad it could be.
For example, the ecclesitheurge is pretty much as bad at melee as a wizard. But I don't think it's helpful to indicate that the cleric's lower end of melee matches the wizard's. That is a 6-9 range seems helpful to a player, while a 1-9 range seems so broad as to be unhelpful. [Cool. I just checked your rating and it's in fact 6-9.]
If you truly want me to change that to just: 9. I'll do so, but I also think that's probably less helpful to our readers. Ultimately though, this is a collaborative work that I could have in no way created on my own. I'd rather you give me some adjusted ratings if you were thinking of all this differently though.
| Arkham Joker |
For example, the ecclesitheurge is pretty much as bad at melee as a wizard. But I don't think it's helpful to indicate that the cleric's lower end of melee matches the wizard's. That is a 6-9 range seems helpful to a player, while a 1-9 range seems so broad as to be unhelpful. [Cool. I just checked your rating and it's in fact 6-9.]
Yeah I think its best for the moment you remove the minimum scores as (no offence meant) you don't understand what I mean and are getting confused!
When I did the minimum score for 'Combat' on the Cleric, I didn't use Ecclesitheurge as my template since that is an archetype itself! Minimum scores by definition cannot be based on archetypes.
The simple reason why a Cleric has a higher minimum score on 'Combat' than a Wizard has NOTHING to do with archetypes, armour, arcane schools, bonus feats, domains... etc. These are all features that can be traded out, vary wildly and thus exist above the class skeleton.
It is because Clerics have a spell list that is better suited to 'Combat' builds, it can effectively be a D10 HD class (via the FCB) with minimal/no loss of casting ability and so are more survivable than a Wizard, and will in general have much better saves than a Wizard which again makes them more survivable.
This is the key point you're not getting and why we're talking cross-purposed..... the minimum score for ANY caster in ANY role has NOTHING to do with builds. It is simply based on the skeleton of the class chassis since that is the minimum level of ability that is always there, irrespective of the situation. That's it - simple.
Do you get it?
| Northern Spotted Owl |
Yeah I think its best for the moment you remove the minimum scores as (no offence meant) you don't understand what I mean and are getting confused!
When I did the minimum score for 'Combat' on the Cleric, I didn't use Ecclesitheurge as my template since that is an archetype itself! Minimum scores by definition cannot be based on archetypes.
The simple reason why a Cleric has a higher minimum score on 'Combat' than a Wizard has NOTHING to do with archetypes, armour, arcane schools, bonus feats, domains... etc. These are all features that can be traded out, vary wildly and thus exist above the class skeleton.
It is because Clerics have a spell list that is better suited to 'Combat' builds, it can effectively be a D10 HD class (via the FCB) with minimal/no loss of casting ability and so are more survivable than a Wizard, and will in general have much better saves than a Wizard which again makes them more survivable.
This is the key point you're not getting and why we're talking cross-purposed..... the minimum score for ANY caster in ANY role has NOTHING to do with builds. It is simply based on the skeleton of the class chassis since that is the minimum level of ability that is always there, irrespective of the situation. That's it - simple.
Do you get it?
I get what you're saying. I removed those lower-end scores. This is your contribution and I respect that, along with the work you've put into it.
Cheers,
Owl
| Arkham Joker |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Afternoon...... a tweak and a couple of updates - cheers!
CONTROL
Rating TBC - 10
This was a toughy as ‘Control’ can be a difficult concept to define precisely in order to rate it. However, I gave it a go! IMO ‘Control’ is influenced by mainly spell/SLA/Su options, but also there is a physical component, in that a physically capable PC can have a significant ‘Control’ option too. After all you can’t tell me a suitable optimised martial character (either ranged or melee) doesn’t have an ability to limit an opponent’s options? I have been in several adventures where invisible Ninja’s or sneak-attacking Rogues have wiped out party casters within 2 rounds. A suitably built Dwarven Barbarian is an absolute nightmare opponent for most spellcasters!!
Finally, there is also a significant degree of overlap I think between the ‘De-buff’ and ‘Control’ roles. For example, if you are hit with a blindness effect, are you weakened? Yes. Are your options now limited? Yes again.
At a minimum, and taking into account the Cleric’s de-buff spells that could also be employed, the following spells could be used:
Entropic Shield, Grasping Corpse, Shadow Trap, Stone Shield, Stunning Barrier, Boneshaker, Darkness, Enthrall, Fear the Sun, Shackle, Shatter, Spiritual Weapon, Spiritual Ally, Sun’s Disdain, Zone of Truth, Chain of Perdition, Deeper Darkness, Invisibility Purge, Spotlight, Wall of Bone/Blindness/Deafness/Clockwork/Stone/Split Illumination/Silver, Waveform, Blade Barrier, Constricting Coils, Animate Objects, Forbiddance, Symbol of ……., Control Weather, Glyph of Warding, Cursed Earth, Rift of Ruin, Maw of Chaos and Roaming Pit.
At the maximum end, you could for easy starters use the ‘Samsaran template’ and Hunter List to grab any of these:
Wall of Fire, Burning Sands, Thunderstomp, Euphoric Cloud, Wall of Thorns, Aqueous Orb, Thorny Entanglement
Worshipping Deskari gets you Create Pit and Acid Pit as bonus spells, Hei Feng gets you Gust of Wind and Hydraulic Push, Grandmother Spider gets you Web and I thought about doing a Combat/Control build using Nivi Rhombodazzle with Greater Invisibility - you wander the battlefield invisible causing mayhem with control spells and a bit of smashface! As an Evangelist and Exalted you would get some great boons, including True Strike.
As well, there are several options from the domains including, Earth (Caves) giving several of the ‘Pit’ spells, Earth (Metal) giving Wall of Iron, Fire giving Wall of Fire and Wall of Ash, Void (Isolation) giving Wall of Force and Prismatic Wall and Artifice giving Wall of Iron. Oceans subdomain has a very useful control ability in ‘Surge (Su)’. And of course a Cleric of a GOO/OG could fill in a couple of gaps using Dreamed Secrets.
TBH my max rating of 10 doesn’t at all mean that I think the Cleric is the best at ‘Control’ amongst the 9th level casters, more that a role-optimised Cleric is as good as anything else out there. What you have to remember is that being able to swap out your entire spell list every day is a big plus point for any role, especially when it is generally regarded as being the 2nd best spell list in the game. With archetypes and items enabling you to swap out domain powers and spells every day too, this only adds to the gravy!
Tielfing: Standard is +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma (various options apply)
A real out of left field option here, but it does have some potential, albeit in niche circumstances.
Out of the sub-races, the following are most apt for a Cleric and offer various possibilities for various build/role types:
Asura-Spawn (Faultspawn): +2 Dex, +2 Wis, –2 Int
Demodand-Spawn (Foulspawn): +2 Con, +2 Wis, –2 Int
Devil-Spawn (Hellspawn): +2 Con, +2 Wis, –2 Cha
Oni-Spawn (Hungerseed): +2 Str, +2 Wis, –2 Cha
Qlippoth-Spawn (the Motherless): +2 Str, +2 Wis, –2 Int
I particularly like the Hellspawn option for an Asmodean Cleric if only for the homage to ‘Spawn’! But there are some good combat options there too.
There are some useful alternate traits too - Fiendish Sprinter, Prehensile Tail, Darklands Guide and Soul Seer being noteworthy; the latter being particularly thematic for any necromantic focussed build. Lastly and crucially, it has the most excellent Cleric FCB of a +1 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome the spell resistance of outsiders.
I’ve never seen a Tiefling Cleric at a table, but there is definite potential here.
Water
Here the Flotsam subdomain and ‘Sift (Su)’ does give some interesting applications with randomly pulling out scrolls of 1st- 2nd level spells. Due to the broken condition (not broken at 12th level) it uses 2x charges/uses as normal so initially you would have to put twice as many spells on the scroll to compensate. And a UMD check would be needed for any arcane spells. Nevertheless, at 6th level, 300 gp gets you a scroll with 6 effective uses of Mage Armour (1 hr duration) or 3 effective uses (2 hour duration) on it. For a niche Utility build it could well be very useful.
Also the Ice subdomain is good - provides better spells with the substitution of, 7th—freezing sphere, 9th—polar ray and ‘Body of Ice (Su)’ gives you a nice temporary immunity to cold damage and some DR.
Finally, the Oceans subdomain is another upgrade on the base domain. Slipstream and Tsunami are useful buff and control spells, and ‘Surge (Su)’ is a very useful low-mid level ability since it can be used for buffing and de-buff/control purposes. You could use it to move allies out of dodgy situations or get them into advantageous positions or pull/push enemies around the battlefield. Lots of useage will give you plenty of mileage.
| Arkham Joker |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Your updates are cut/paste in Arkham. Thanks again for the good work.
Cheers... much app
There was a small omission in the text to be added...
Snowball, Wall of Fire, Burning Sands, Thunderstomp, Euphoric Cloud, Wall of Thorns, Aqueous Orb, Thorny Entanglement
Snowball provides a nice low-mid level blast/control option as it can be used in conjuction with Rime Spell (and a MM reducer) to get an entangle effect.
| Blackmill |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Having spent some time looking at the witch spell list, I think the rating of 6 is maybe undeserved.
Roughly 50% of the wizard spell list is on the witch spell list. For context, druid's have about 20% of the wizard spell list. But the numbers don't say anything about the quality and impact of the wizard spells that a witch has access to. Generally, I think the witch gets many of the best wizard spells.
A witch gets most of the strongest "save-or-die" / "save-or-do-nothing" spells with the exception of icy prison. They have suffocation, feeblemind, baleful polymorph, hold monster, most debilitating enchantment spells, etc...
The witch loses access to a few very good evocation spells such as fireball and freezing sphere. But if that's really a sticking point, these can be obtained through the elements patron. Or a witch can take the shadow patron, and use shadow spells to fill in gaps in their spell list.
I won't keep going, but if we take the whole wizard spell list to be a 10, then I think just the wizard spells that any witch can use would warrant a 7.
Now add spells like heal, resurrection, restoration spells (if you choose the healing patron), and the entire cure wounds line of spells, and you have a very strong spell list.
Basically, I think the witch trades wizard spells for cleric spells at a decent exchange rate, and the right choice of patron really helps. I would give their spell list an 8.
| Northern Spotted Owl |
Having spent some time looking at the witch spell list, I think the rating of 6 is maybe undeserved.
Roughly 50% of the wizard spell list is on the witch spell list. For context, druid's have about 20% of the wizard spell list. But the numbers don't say anything about the quality and impact of the wizard spells that a witch has access to. Generally, I think the witch gets many of the best wizard spells.
A witch gets most of the strongest "save-or-die" / "save-or-do-nothing" spells with the exception of icy prison. They have suffocation, feeblemind, baleful polymorph, hold monster, most debilitating enchantment spells, etc...
The witch loses access to a few very good evocation spells such as fireball and freezing sphere. But if that's really a sticking point, these can be obtained through the elements patron. Or a witch can take the shadow patron, and use shadow spells to fill in gaps in their spell list.
I won't keep going, but if we take the whole wizard spell list to be a 10, then I think just the wizard spells that any witch can use would warrant a 7.
Now add spells like heal, resurrection, restoration spells (if you choose the healing patron), and the entire cure wounds line of spells, and you have a very strong spell list.
Basically, I think the witch trades wizard spells for cleric spells at a decent exchange rate, and the right choice of patron really helps. I would give their spell list an 8.
I get what you're saying Blackmill. I'm a huge fan of the witch myself.
I ask myself the question: if a witch could have the wizard spell list instead of her own, how much better would she be?
Here are some so the key wizard spells that I miss as a witch:
evocation: fireball, etc
walls & pits
illusions: invisibility, mirror image, etc
buffs: haste, prot. from evil, resist energy, etc
Don't get me wrong, there are some nice cleric & druid spells on her list. But I would give them up for the full wizard spell list in a heartbeat.
I'm also trying to create a useful range of scores. If on a scale of 1-10 everyone rates 8-10 then we're not conveying as much useful information as I feel we could.
| Arkham Joker |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here's another..... feedback liked as always!
BLASTER
Rating: TBC - 9
Another real toughy…. definitely the hardest for me to rate out of the roles.
I think first and foremost, to be a good+ blaster, you need to have options from spell levels 1-9. This doesn’t necessarily mean that you need to have loads of blasting spells, more that the spells you do have can cover your likely adventures/encounters for the PC levels 1-20 and be effective with it.
Although everybody has read various guides on being a ‘Fireball Wizard/Sorceror specialist…. etc’, even those builds have ways of bullet-proofing themselves against resistances and such, eg) Admixture school for Wizards. And even then once you get into the mid levels and beyond, creatures often have multiple resistances or immunities. So having non-elemental ways of dealing damage becomes increasingly important.
In terms of the minimum for a Cleric, it gets a relatively low score, due to lacking direct damage spells in the lower levels (eg. 1-3) in its core list, and in general AOE damaging spells at the mid levels. There are exceptions but in terms of the core list, the Cleric is mainly a single target blaster until mid-high level.
However, using Human as the base race template, you do get the excellent +1 vs Outsider SR as your FCB, largely alleviating the need for investing in Spell Penetration feats.
Here are the low level spells:
Barbed Chains, Inflict Light/Moderate/Serious Wounds, Magic Stone, Admonishing Ray, Deadeye’s Arrow, Eroding Ray, Shard of Chaos, Spear of Purity, Holy Javelin, Iron Stake, Lightning Lash, Screaming Flames, Searing Light, Trial by Fire and Storm of Blades.
Things then definitely improve in the mid-levels (4-6), but still lacks any significant AOE damage spells, although the mass inflict spells do at least get around the selectivity problem of some AOE damage spells and are not subject to the more common energy resistances:
Chaos Hammer, Inflict Critical Wounds, Fleshworm Infestation, Forceful Strike, Healing Flames, Holy Smite, Order’s Wrath, Positive Pulse, Summoner Conduit, Terrible Remorse, Unholy Blight, Boneshatter, Flame Strike, Mass Inflict Light/Moderate Wounds, Holy/Unholy Ice, Harm, Cold Ice Strike, Elemental Assessor, Hellfire Ray and Undeath to Death.
At the higher levels (7-9), the Cleric is basically either as good or better as any other caster, containing both good single target and AOE spells:
Destruction, Mass Inflict Serious/Critical Wounds, Umbral Strike, Death Clutch, Earthquake, Fire Storm, Orb of the Void, Implosion, Soulreaver, Stormbolts, Symbol of Death, Canopic Conversion, Cursed Earth, Energy Drain, Massacre, Polar Midnight, Scourge of the Horseman and Storm of Vengeance.
Implosion is a very interesting one - on the surface it seems very similar to Wail of the Banshee and could be seen as slightly worse due to the fact that is not an AOE spell, even though due to its long duration can affect many creatures over time. However, it is in fact better for several reasons - WOTB only affects living creatures, is both a Death and Sonic spell (by mid-high level many enemies will be immune or at the minimum have significant resistances) and although AOE, it can only affect any creature once. Implosion, can if the Cleric desires, continue to concentrate on one target and so potentially inflict a minimum 170-200 hp per round for the cost of only 1 spell. It is also an Evocation spell - and since many blast spells are Evocation too, this makes investing in Spell Focus type feats even more worthwhile. And being that it is neither Death or Sonic based, far fewer creatures will have any immunity. TBH IMO by the time you get to higher levels, life-threatening danger is much more likely to come from a BBEG rather than groups of mooks. It is noteworthy that in PF2 it is the Wizard that gets Implosion on its core list, whereas the Cleric is given WOTB.
In terms of items to boost blasting then the natural candidates are, MM rods, Wizard’s Hook, Prayer Beads, Candle of Evocation and Incense of Meditation.
Now…… at the maximum end, things change dramatically for the Cleric in terms of options!
From a race perspective, if you were a Tiefling (like Human) and had been taking + 1 vs outsider SR up to 10th level as your FCB, you would be very likely to overcome any SR you came across.
Using the ‘Samsaran template’ you would have a couple of options to boost your blast ability:
Hunter - Snowball, Frostbite, Explosion of Rot, Aggressive Thundercloud, Flurry of Snowballs, Pinecomb Bomb, Burst of Nettles, Burning Entanglement, Call Lightning, Ball Lightning and Ice Spears
Adept - Scorching Ray, Lightning Bolt
Aasimar (and Consecrate Spell - Metamagic) has uses for both a Theologian specialist (Fire/Ash) but also an Ecclesitheurge who wants as part of their toolkit to have some extra blasting potential. I would say though the difference between maximised and empowered, isn’t as much as you might think when you actually do the maths:
For example, a maximised 10 D6 fireball is 60 hp, but an empowered one is 53.25 hp, so when you factor in that Consecrate Spell is only vs evil creatures and Empowered Spell is vs anyone, in the long run Empowered Spell may be better.
On the other hand Aasimar (+2 WIS and +2 CHA/CON/CON) has no ability score downsides and their bonuses are basically ideal for a Cleric.
Alternatively, Lava Gnome/Magma Ifrit (+2 CON, +2 CHA, –2 Strength / +2 CON, +2 INT, –2 DEX) although certainly don’t have as good ability score bonuses, do both offer a +1 CL bonus on both domain spells and powers from the Fire/Ash domain which is significant; especially since a Theologian is already +2CL for the domain powers and can stack with Foundation of Faith (Plane of Fire). Take your pick really.
So you can see when it comes to race choice for a Blaster Cleric it is trcky. For example, It could well be that a Samsaran Ecclesithuerge of Yamatsumi is the most optimal blasting choice if you want to have the best options from l - 9:
Burning Hands, Snowball, Fireball, Fire Seeds, Ice Storm, Cone of Cold, Disintegrate, Explosion of Rot, Burning Entanglement, Flurry of Snowballs, Ball Lightning, Pinecomb Bomb and Polar Ray are now part of your spells…….. ON TOP of all the spells from the Cleric list! You could then take ‘Riming Spell’ and/or ‘Elemental Spell’, ‘Intensified Spell’ MM to improve your effectiveness.
Regarding domains - almost any non-Cleric blasting spell can be sourced if you look around which further complicates things when building.
And looking at deity choices (see previous):
- Shizuru gets you Color Spray (technically a de-buff but worth mentioning, especially since you can cast it spontaneously), Scorching Ray and Prismatic Spray.
- Hei-Feng gets you Lightning Bolt
- Moloch gets you Flame Arrow
- Worship a GOO/OG and you of course get the always useful Dreamed Secrets. And this if you already have a decent set of domains, could be your best option since you will likely only need 1 or 2 spells to top you off.
- Rovagug gets you the amazing boon, ‘Destructive Spell (Su)’ for an aspiring Divine Paragon blaster - in essence it’s like (and possibly still better than) a Greater, Greater, Greater Spell Focus for blasters! Stack it with the actual Spell Focus feats and your enemy has no chance of passing that save DC. Would pair up brilliantly with being a Samsaran.
Overall, it’s fair to say, if you know what you’re doing, the Cleric can make a very good blaster. HOWEVER, ultimately it can never truly get top tier, even when specialised, when compared to a Wiz/Sorc due to its lack of bonus feats. Having extra feats or specialised blaster Arcane School/Bloodline abilities is what gives them the little bit of extra polish that they need to excel.
As always though, what makes the Cleric so useful is that even if you do hyper-specialise in a given role within your party, you can still perform many other roles pretty decently as a side-hustle!
| Lelomenia |
Having spent some time looking at the witch spell list, I think the rating of 6 is maybe undeserved.
Roughly 50% of the wizard spell list is on the witch spell list. For context, druid's have about 20% of the wizard spell list. But the numbers don't say anything about the quality and impact of the wizard spells that a witch has access to. Generally, I think the witch gets many of the best wizard spells.
A witch gets most of the strongest "save-or-die" / "save-or-do-nothing" spells with the exception of icy prison. They have suffocation, feeblemind, baleful polymorph, hold monster, most debilitating enchantment spells, etc...
The witch loses access to a few very good evocation spells such as fireball and freezing sphere. But if that's really a sticking point, these can be obtained through the elements patron. Or a witch can take the shadow patron, and use shadow spells to fill in gaps in their spell list.
I won't keep going, but if we take the whole wizard spell list to be a 10, then I think just the wizard spells that any witch can use would warrant a 7.
Now add spells like heal, resurrection, restoration spells (if you choose the healing patron), and the entire cure wounds line of spells, and you have a very strong spell list.
Basically, I think the witch trades wizard spells for cleric spells at a decent exchange rate, and the right choice of patron really helps. I would give their spell list an 8.
i would rate the wizard spell list at maybe an 8 for this, because there are various archetypes that have much better effective spell lists than Generic List Wizard/Sorcerer. So that might be the disconnect.
| Blackmill |
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I get what you're saying Blackmill. I'm a huge fan of the witch myself.I ask myself the question: if a witch could have the wizard spell list instead of her own, how much better would she be?
Here are some so the key wizard spells that I miss as a witch:
evocation: fireball, etc
walls & pits
illusions: invisibility, mirror image, etc
buffs: haste, prot. from evil, resist energy, etcDon't get me wrong, there are some nice cleric & druid spells on her list. But I would give them up for the full wizard spell list in a heartbeat.
I'm also trying to...
I totally agree that the full wizard spell list is decidedly better than the witch spell list. I settled on an 8 mostly because I thought the witch has a better spell list than a druid. What you describe the witch missing out on, so does a druid for the most part. But I'd argue the witch has much better high level spells, especially once you factor in patrons. I think swapping the druid (7) and witch (6) would be fair if you think an 8 is too high. Or at the very least, giving both a 7. But that's just my two cents, and if you want to keep your list as is, that's no problem to me.
| Northern Spotted Owl |
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i would rate the wizard spell list at maybe an 8 for this, because there are various archetypes that have much better effective spell lists than Generic List Wizard/Sorcerer. So that might be the disconnect.
That's an interesting perspective, and one I hadn't considered. First let's consider the base classes, without archetypes.
Wizards -- just have their base spell list
Clerics -- add domain spells
Druids -- choose between an animal companion OR a cleric domain
Shaman -- a few races have an FCB that adds a cleric (or more rarely other) spell to their list AND a shaman hex (Lore/Arcane Enlightenment) adds any single wizard spell for 1 hour/day
I won't go into every class, but those are reasonably representative. Here's how I think about them:
Wizards -- should be scored by their base list
Clerics -- might as well add in the general value of two good domain choices (same with witches, etc)
Druids -- most players choose an animal companion, so I'd just consider the base list
Shaman -- let's assume that everyone takes this racial FCB, but maybe not Arcane Enlightenment (or is it so good that everyone ought to take it?)
And honestly that's such an involved set of guesses & judgement that I think we're better off setting aside the optimal spell lists from archetypes.
But that's my take. What do folks think?
| Arkham Joker |
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That's an interesting perspective, and one I hadn't considered. First let's consider the base classes, without archetypes.
Wizards -- just have their base spell list
Clerics -- add domain spells
Druids -- choose between an animal companion OR a cleric domain
Shaman -- a few races have an FCB that adds a cleric (or more rarely other) spell to their list AND a shaman hex (Lore/Arcane Enlightenment) adds any single wizard spell for 1 hour/dayI won't go into every class, but those are reasonably representative. Here's how I think about them:
Wizards -- should be scored by their base list
Clerics -- might as well add in the general value of two good domain choices (same with witches, etc)
Druids -- most players choose an animal companion, so I'd just consider the base list
Shaman -- let's assume that everyone takes this racial FCB, but maybe not Arcane Enlightenment (or is it so good that everyone ought to take it?)But that's my take. What do folks think?
My thoughts on this are pretty clear...
This whole exercise is about 'Roles' not spell lists.
Now for some classes (eg Wizard/Sorceror/Psychic) their ability to perform a given caster role can only be defined by their spell list since they have a very low level of physical ability. However, for other classes their innate physical ability does impact on their ability to perform certain roles - a good example is healing or buffing. Being survivable contributes to your ability to perform the roles.
| Northern Spotted Owl |
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
That's an interesting perspective, and one I hadn't considered. First let's consider the base classes, without archetypes.
Wizards -- just have their base spell list
Clerics -- add domain spells
Druids -- choose between an animal companion OR a cleric domain
Shaman -- a few races have an FCB that adds a cleric (or more rarely other) spell to their list AND a shaman hex (Lore/Arcane Enlightenment) adds any single wizard spell for 1 hour/dayI won't go into every class, but those are reasonably representative. Here's how I think about them:
Wizards -- should be scored by their base list
Clerics -- might as well add in the general value of two good domain choices (same with witches, etc)
Druids -- most players choose an animal companion, so I'd just consider the base list
Shaman -- let's assume that everyone takes this racial FCB, but maybe not Arcane Enlightenment (or is it so good that everyone ought to take it?)But that's my take. What do folks think?
My thoughts on this are pretty clear...
This whole exercise is about 'Roles' not spell lists.
Now for some classes (eg Wizard/Sorceror/Psychic) their ability to perform a given caster role can only be defined by their spell list since they have a very low level of physical ability. However, for other classes their innate physical ability does impact on their ability to perform certain roles - a good example is healing or buffing. Being survivable contributes to your ability to perform the roles.
I agree with all that.
This question was more about rating the classes' spell lists themselves. I was trying to lay out how I think about what a class' spell list actually is. I.e. when we think about the wizard spells list it really just is the wizard spell list. But when we think about the cleric spell list we should probably also think about adding 2 domains.
PCScipio
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Shaman -- let's assume that everyone takes this racial FCB, but maybe not Arcane Enlightenment (or is it so good that everyone ought to take it?)
I played a half-orc Speaker for the Past Heavens Shaman, and did NOT take Lore/Arcane Enlightenment. I was still able to cast Heroism (Ancestor Mystery), Haste (Speed or Slow Time Revelation from Time Mystery), and Contingency (Time Mystery), not to mention Overland Flight and Chain Lightning (Heavens Spirit). And of course I used the half-orc FCB to grab Blessing of Fervor from the Cleric spell list.
I did all that with Charisma 8. The Guiding Star hex allowed me to add my Wisdom modifier (+10 late game) to charisma-based skill checks when I could see the open sky at night (as this was Strange Aeons, this was fairly common at higher levels).