Can you use Shield Block against non-Strike attack forms such as Trample or Swallow Whole? What about Strikes that deal energy damage, such as a Yaganti's Candle Fingers?
I have a player of a Champion in my game that is increasingly asking to use Shield Block against these kinds of attacks and, as I've allowed it so far, it's coming off as REALLY powerful! It's given me pause, as I'm now wondering if I've allowed it to do more than the rules intend. Is that the case?
Shield Block's trigger says "While you have your shield raised, you would take damage from a physical attack."
But what's a physical attack? I can't find any definition of a physical attack anywhere in the rules. Physical DAMAGE is defined as bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing (in contrast to ENERGY/MAGICAL damage such as acid, alignment, cold, electricity, fire, force, negative, positive, sonic, etc.), but Shield Block isn't referencing physical damage, but physical attacks.
My inclination is to fall back on what I know (physical and energy DAMAGE) and make rulings based off of that. For example, you could Shield Block a sword Strike, but not an alchemist's fire. A flaming sword would have the physical damage reduced, but would do nothing against the fire damage from the flaming rune.
My player argues that this is intended to use plain language rather than rules jargon, and so I should be ruling on a case by case basis. For example, a vial of acid should be considered a physical attack, because it's a solid object that is thrown, and thus could rationally be deflected/partially absorbed by the shield. However, a ghost's incorporeal touch would not be considered physical, and so would bypass the Shield Block entirely.
What are your thoughts on the matter? How might you rule with some of the above examples? Did I overlook any rules regarding the issue? Have the developers commented or clarified Shield Block at all?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Physical Damage is Damage dealt by weapons, many physical hazards, and a handful of spells is collectively called physical damage. The main types of physical damage are bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing.
So surely Physical Attacks are the ones that deal that type of damage.
This is what natural language rules means. If you have something that is well defined then great. But otherwise, near enough is all you have.
Honestly its just up to you. Rule it how you like.
Can you use Shield Block against non-Strike attack forms such as Trample or Swallow Whole? What about Strikes that deal energy damage, such as a Yaganti's Candle Fingers?
My reading is that physical attacks are attacks that deal physical damage.
So, mostly Strikes, but you also have Hydraulic Push that have the attack trait and deals physical damage.I think it's clearly not intended to work on Swallow Whole and similar damage as they're not attacks (it would mean you can use it on falling damage, which would be preposterous). For weapon attacks that deal non physical damage it's really up to you and they are rare so it shouldn't change the game balance much.
While my inclination is to limit blocking to Strikes, in the genres of the game (epic fantasy raising to superheroic) shields are used for most all of that stuff, including bracing against a fall or blocking/deflecting a surging blast of physical magic.
I think Reflexive Shield implies one can't use Shield Block vs. physical damage tied to a Reflex save since it has to clarify that it doesn't just unlock the ability to defend against physical attacks.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Another data point to consider is the Magus Sparkling Targe hybrid study. As part of the ability you get when in arcane stance you get "In addition, damage you take as a result of a spell or magical effect while you're in Arcane Cascade can trigger your Shield Block reaction, even if the damage isn't physical. "
To me, that strongly implies that others do NOT get that ability, its one of the main "cool things" that a shield magus gets.
Trample: yes
Swallow whole: no
Fire damage: no
Falling: GMs choice, but I'd say yes. (See Winter Soldier.)
Physical damage is a defined set of damage types. Arguing things like Acid Flasks are physical hurts players if they wind up fighting a golem.
The only reason not to allow a shield block on bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing is if the shield couldn't plausibly be interposed. Which is why I'd say no to swallow whole. That's literally the person being crushed on all sides.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Trample: yes
Swallow whole: no
Fire damage: no
Falling: GMs choice, but I'd say yes. (See Winter Soldier.)Physical damage is a defined set of damage types. Arguing things like Acid Flasks are physical hurts players if they wind up fighting a golem.
The only reason not to allow a shield block on bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing is if the shield couldn't plausibly be interposed. Which is why I'd say no to swallow whole. That's literally the person being crushed on all sides.
But Shield Block speaks about physical attacks, not physical damage. And I think the distinction is important.
But Shield Block speaks about physical attacks, not physical damage. And I think the distinction is important.Trample: yes
Swallow whole: no
Fire damage: no
Falling: GMs choice, but I'd say yes. (See Winter Soldier.)Physical damage is a defined set of damage types. Arguing things like Acid Flasks are physical hurts players if they wind up fighting a golem.
The only reason not to allow a shield block on bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing is if the shield couldn't plausibly be interposed. Which is why I'd say no to swallow whole. That's literally the person being crushed on all sides.
That yields strange results though. Swallow Whole has the attack trait while Trample doesn't, but Trample is really just getting hit by a foot strike in motion.
You can run it that way, but putting too much weight on the word attack leads to the opposite conclusion from what you stated earlier.
But Shield Block speaks about physical attacks, not physical damage. And I think the distinction is important.Trample: yes
Swallow whole: no
Fire damage: no
Falling: GMs choice, but I'd say yes. (See Winter Soldier.)Physical damage is a defined set of damage types. Arguing things like Acid Flasks are physical hurts players if they wind up fighting a golem.
The only reason not to allow a shield block on bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing is if the shield couldn't plausibly be interposed. Which is why I'd say no to swallow whole. That's literally the person being crushed on all sides.
That yields strange results though. Swallow Whole has the attack trait while Trample doesn't, but Trample is really just getting hit by a foot strike in motion.
You can run it that way, but putting too much weight on the word attack leads to the opposite conclusion from what you stated earlier.
I have missed that Swallow Whole had the Attack Trait, I agree.
And I also fully agree that it's not 100% logical, but the OP question seems more of a rule one than a logical one.For Swallow Whole the damage is a bit tricky, as it's not a consequence of Swallow Whole, but continuous damage from being swallowed. As a GM, I'll err on the side of the player, because I don't think it's fair to rule against them, but I would not allow to shield block after the first damage as afterwards the enemy uses no more attack action to keep you swallowed.
|
It seems intuitive to me that a physical attack is an attack which does physical damage (as defined elsewhere in the thread.) And, for me, for it to be an attack, it must have the "Attack" trait. And that is defined as, "An ability with this trait involves an attack." So, an attack (with the attack trait) which does physical damage (as defined in the CRB) would be, to me, a physical attack, and would trigger the shield block.
It seems intuitive to me that a physical attack is an attack which does physical damage (as defined elsewhere in the thread.) And, for me, for it to be an attack, it must have the "Attack" trait. And that is defined as, "An ability with this trait involves an attack." So, an attack (with the attack trait) which does physical damage (as defined in the CRB) would be, to me, a physical attack, and would trigger the shield block.
So if an enemy got a critical success to Trip me could I use Shield Block against the trip damage?
It is a physical action, has the Attack trait, and deals damage, thereby meeting all your criteria.
|
|
It seems intuitive to me that a physical attack is an attack which does physical damage (as defined elsewhere in the thread.) And, for me, for it to be an attack, it must have the "Attack" trait. And that is defined as, "An ability with this trait involves an attack." So, an attack (with the attack trait) which does physical damage (as defined in the CRB) would be, to me, a physical attack, and would trigger the shield block.So if an enemy got a critical success to Trip me could I use Shield Block against the trip damage?
It is a physical action, has the Attack trait, and deals damage, thereby meeting all your criteria.
It doesn’t always do damage. It only does damage on a critical success. So, in that case, no, I don’t think so.
EDIT: but, honestly, if it did block the damage, I think that’s probably okay, too. I’m not sure it makes a difference here, really.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
From a logical standpoint, I don't think there's a satisfying way to handle Shield Block besides deciding in every case if it applies or not.
From a pure RAW point of view, you can read it as applying only to attacks that deal physical damage or to any physical damage dealt. In the first case there are weird cases with Swallow Whole, Trip and Trample. In the second case, it means that it applies to physical persistent damage like Bleeding so it doesn't seem like a better way to handle it.
So I'll stick personally to attacks that deal physical damage as it's both the closest to the words and because there's no simple way to satisfyingly handle Shield Block.
So if an enemy got a critical success to Trip me could I use Shield Block against the trip damage?
It is a physical action, has the Attack trait, and deals damage, thereby meeting all your criteria.
Sure. You twist while falling and land on the shield, preventing the damage that you'd otherwise take for going down hard. Sounds legit to me.
Blocking the sort of translational damage that comes from falling off of cliffs is much less plausible.
Personally, I'd say that the default should be direct physical damage from attack-associated actions. There are some fuzzy areas, but they actually wind up reasonably clean, if you look at them right.
- damage from crits on trips totally counts. Certain other kings of damage associated with maneuvers might get houseruled. I'm having a hard time seeing how you'd shield block the damage from Crushing Grab, when grappled by an enemy of the same size.
- Swallow Whole lets you shield block the initial bite damage (as that's associated directly with an attack) but not the ongoing damage from being swallowed. That both seems in line with the rules and feels about right. You may not be able to get the shield between you and all of the teeth, but you can get it between you and *some* of the teeth.
- Falling from a height is not an attack, and shield blocking it also just feels silly. No.
- Trample actually lists a strike. The trample feature lets them ignore the need to make an attack roll (and the associated MAP) but that strike is still an attack. Also, shield blocking a trample makes sense. I'd rule that it works in my own game, and it's a little fuzzy, but I think that the rules agree with me.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think the general rule should be Shield Block can be used against a Strike with a physical item that deals physical damage.
A weapon or unarmed (capital S) Strike all usually fall in this category. The exceptions being incorporeal touch attacks (but they would usually do negative damage) or something like an Elemental that does Fire damage instead of Bludgeoning. This helps to clarify most of the corner cases too.
CS on Trip doesn't count because it is an athletics check not a Strike.
I would say no to SB for Trample because it allows for a Reflex save.
While Swallow Whole is an attack action, it is not a Strike, so again it doesn't count.
You can't use SB for spell attack rolls, because that is not a strike, so it doesn't work against Telekinetic Projectile or similar spells.
I think this definition is cleaner, it has less corner cases and it still preserves the RAI and flavor of Shield Block, i.e. I can use my shield to absorb some of the damage from the blow.
|
|
I think the general rule should be Shield Block can be used against a Strike with a physical item that deals physical damage.
A weapon or unarmed (capital S) Strike all usually fall in this category. The exceptions being incorporeal touch attacks (but they would usually do negative damage) or something like an Elemental that does Fire damage instead of Bludgeoning. This helps to clarify most of the corner cases too.
CS on Trip doesn't count because it is an athletics check not a Strike.
I would say no to SB for Trample because it allows for a Reflex save.
While Swallow Whole is an attack action, it is not a Strike, so again it doesn't count.You can't use SB for spell attack rolls, because that is not a strike, so it doesn't work against Telekinetic Projectile or similar spells.
I think this definition is cleaner, it has less corner cases and it still preserves the RAI and flavor of Shield Block, i.e. I can use my shield to absorb some of the damage from the blow.
yeah, actually, I agree with you here. I think this makes the most sense.
I think the general rule should be Shield Block can be used against a Strike with a physical item that deals physical damage.
A weapon or unarmed (capital S) Strike all usually fall in this category. The exceptions being incorporeal touch attacks (but they would usually do negative damage) or something like an Elemental that does Fire damage instead of Bludgeoning. This helps to clarify most of the corner cases too.
CS on Trip doesn't count because it is an athletics check not a Strike.
I would say no to SB for Trample because it allows for a Reflex save.
While Swallow Whole is an attack action, it is not a Strike, so again it doesn't count.You can't use SB for spell attack rolls, because that is not a strike, so it doesn't work against Telekinetic Projectile or similar spells.
I think this definition is cleaner, it has less corner cases and it still preserves the RAI and flavor of Shield Block, i.e. I can use my shield to absorb some of the damage from the blow.
Even with this definition, there are still corner cases where I would allow a shield block. For instance, Illusory Creature has strikes. I would let a PC use SB even though the attacks deal mental damage, and even let the damage be reduced, but not damage the shield. I might even allow a check to disbelieve after noticing no damage to the shield.