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First off, thanks to pad300 and Derklord for helping with naming the guide.
Google Sheet link to the guide.
Hello, everyone! I finally got around to polishing up my own kind of guide to the Mystic Theurge. It is far from being complete enough to satisfy me but fleshed out enough that it covers everything I intended to touch on when I started it, which is basically analyzing and rating all the potential options that a player has when considering what classes and abilities to take prior to entry into the Mystic Theurge class. It covers ONLY the first few levels of each of the full casting classes (leaving the higher levels to actual focused guides on the classes) and offers suggestions on what classes to pair with another.
Eventually, it will have 'recommended' combinations for classes that share a casting stat, 'focused' combinations for classes that do not share a casting stat, and sometime in the future, fully fleshed out builds for combinations that I feel make excellent choices. I've got one going so far as a pilot attempt on the last tab (Build Tables), but it is far from finished.
So, feel free to take a look and let me know what you think. It is not in the typical style of the other guides, and has no awesome pictures or hyperlinks. It contains bad grammar and likely some spelling errors, as it is more of my running thought process on commentary. I likely won't be fixing any of the grammar but if there are any egregious spelling errors that confuse you, let me know so I can fix them.
If anyone has any build combinations they think are pretty good, let me know and I'll see about adding them to the guide. One thing I ask is try to avoid any kind of discussion about early entry 'shenanigans'. I am not considering them as viable means to enter the Mystic Theurge early, as there is too much table variation, and as such will not be present in my guide. Feel free to check out Iluzry's Guide To The Mystic Theurge if you want more information on how to go about doing that. Its a good resource and also one of the reasons I got started on this guide. Here is a link to that discussion thread.
Thanks and enjoy!
P.S.: I might, just maybe, eventually get around to adding some information on combining Arcanist or Wizard with Warpriest, Inquisitor, or Hunter through the use of the Faith Magic arcane discovery or the Spirit Whisper wizard archetype. Maybe the Zealot archetype for the Vigilante, but those are niche builds and won't be as robust as the other breakdowns.
Good to haz an additional free guide stuff for the Mystic Theurge demystifyin' out there for PF1e, DeathlessOne. ;)
Relevant to a Shaman/Witch Mystic Theurge (as well as for a Hexcrafter Magus/Witch combination, although that isn't a Mystic Theurge): I could have sworn to having seen somewhere a rule that says these classes stack for determining Hex effective levels (including Save DCs), but now I can't find it to save me.
Relevant to a Shaman/Witch Mystic Theurge (as well as for a Hexcrafter Magus/Witch combination, although that isn't a Mystic Theurge): I could have sworn to having seen somewhere a rule that says these classes stack for determining Hex effective levels (including Save DCs), but now I can't find it to save me.
If you ever find that, I'd love to see it. I've got a character in a giantslayer game mixing Witch with Sylvan Trickster rogue that would LOVE to have those levels stack. Though, I'm not sure the DC increase is going to be enough to make any particular hex combination better, though it COULD eventually let you get full use out of Evil Eye once you get an effective witch level of 8. That might be enough of a boon to delay entry into Mystic Theurge for some unique circumstances. Specifically, a Ley-Line Witch combing with a Shaman that takes 4 levels for wandering spirit, or same witch with another spontaneous caster.
I'm interested to hear how that witch/sylvan trickster is working out? What do you like or dislike?
Oh, I am quite pleased with it so far. It is a mess of a multiclass. The character was originally meant to be a White-Haired Witch (Infernal Contract patron) / Strangler Brawler. Then, the party needed a rogue-like character for balance purposes. Since I already had some hexes (the Infernal contract was my way into qualifying for Extra Hex), I thought adding the potential to get more hexes was a great middle ground.
We are currently level 10, and the character is Witch6/Brawler2/Rogue2 and someone you DO NOT want to get into a grapple contest with. I use that trick rarely though, since I play a support character for the most part. Has five hexes in total (Misfortune, Cackle, Protective Luck, Murksight, and Fly).
The obvious downside is that I'm 4 levels behind a pure witch. I really don't care though. Spellcasting to attack or debuff isn't my thing. I use it mostly for buffing the group, utility, or being a menace to the enemy with 'no save' spells that annoy the hell out of them (lilke making them Supernaturally Delicious and their animalistic pets, or my Vomited Swarm, prioritize their attention on them).
On a side note, I've always thought an Infernal Contract witch would be all but unplayable at 1st level. You're losing 1d6 hp at the start of every day, and half the time you probably have to turn right around and cast cure light wounds or use a healing hex if you went with that.
How did it work out at 1st or even 2nd level?
Ah, well, its not unplayable, it just ends up costing you a spell (Infernal Healing, is what I used) until you can afford a wand of cure light wounds for your own personal use. Was it worth dealing with it to get access to hexes as a White-haired witch? Yes. Yes, it was. Now, I have Boots of the Earth and have no issues with healing.
I do play the character off as anemic in appearance, and pale. Trying to do his best to get out of that devil's bargain and trying NOT to die in the mean time.
On the combos, you mention Witch Druid, INT-WIS, and don't mention any archetypes.
Admittedly my suggestion maybe somewhere else, why didn't you mention Seducer/Feyspeaker to make it a pure CHA class.
On the topic of Witches, I think it is very good for MT with he right hexes. The Cackle/Soothsayer/Protective Luck is as strong at level 1 as it is at level 20. There are lots of nice hexes that don't rely on DCs.
I have also noticed one small oversight (potentially, I know some people who rule it differently). Empyreal and Crossblooded do not stack.
I think that you say differently should be written somewhere in the T&Cs
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On the combos, you mention Witch Druid, INT-WIS, and don't mention any archetypes.
I assume this is on the generic 'Build Combos' tab of the guide? You'll need to go to the 'Combos #1' part of the guide to see my suggestion of the Ashiftah/Road Keeper combination. The 'Build Combos' tab is a more general collection to list out the combination by casting type and stat. I only call out an archetype there when it is required to achieve the desired casting type/stat.
Admittedly my suggestion maybe somewhere else, why didn't you mention Seducer/Feyspeaker to make it a pure CHA class.
That was on oversight on my part. I previously had the Feyspeaker listed as a spontaneous caster and did not readjust after I made that change. That will be reflected soon.
On the topic of Witches, I think it is very good for MT with he right hexes. The Cackle/Soothsayer/Protective Luck is as strong at level 1 as it is at level 20. There are lots of nice hexes that don't rely on DCs.
Correct, hexes are powerful if you select them properly.
I have also noticed one small oversight (potentially, I know some people who rule it differently). Empyreal and Crossblooded do not stack.
I think that you say differently should be written somewhere in the T&Cs
It is noted in the Sorcerer tab. You might have missed it. It in the section that deal with Bloodline Mutations, Wild-Blooded, Crossblooded, and Bloodline Familiars. I explain why I present the two as compatible, regardless of what others might decide at their table.
^My inclination would also be to allow it, but Rules As Written doesn't allow it (they both modify Bloodline). Yes, I know, the official Rules As Written don't always live up to the expectations born of flavor, and separately but related to this they even make you take an inferior version of Skill Focus (named Exotic Heritage) to get Eldritch Heritage with a Wildblooded line. Never could figure out the reason for this, but it is what it is. (I suspect it is born out of the same reasoning(?) that led to the over-the-top profusion of feat taxes.)
Yeah, I've heard all the arguments for and against Wildblooded and Crossblooded, and I have been on the "wrong side" of the rulings up until they changed their minds later. People can disagree with how I present the information in the guide but I've already put disclaimers in there. It is what it is. People can argue about it in the rules forum.
^Unfortunately, they aren't going to change their minds (and they aren't even going to think about it) now, because (again unfortunately) Paizo has moved completely on to 2nd Edition apart from the occasional re-release of PDFs, etc.
Relevant to a Shaman/Witch Mystic Theurge (as well as for a Hexcrafter Magus/Witch combination, although that isn't a Mystic Theurge): I could have sworn to having seen somewhere a rule that says these classes stack for determining Hex effective levels (including Save DCs), but now I can't find it to save me.If you ever find that, I'd love to see it. {. . .}
Instead, I only seem to be able to find the opposite:
{. . .}
Parent Classes: Each one of the following classes lists two classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don’t stack unless specified. {. . .}
(I can't find the corresponding entry on Archives of Nethys, even though all of the same hybrid classes are there.)
Relevant to a Shaman/Witch Mystic Theurge (as well as for a Hexcrafter Magus/Witch combination, although that isn't a Mystic Theurge): I could have sworn to having seen somewhere a rule that says these classes stack for determining Hex effective levels (including Save DCs), but now I can't find it to save me.If you ever find that, I'd love to see it. {. . .}Instead, I only seem to be able to find the opposite:
{. . .}
Parent Classes: Each one of the following classes lists two classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don’t stack unless specified. {. . .}(I can't find the corresponding entry on Archives of Nethys, even though all of the same hybrid classes are there.)
You’re probably remembering an early iteration of the Hybrid class rules, or an old FAQ that said abilities of the same name stack…
^Unfortunately, they aren't going to change their minds (and they aren't even going to think about it) now, because (again unfortunately) Paizo has moved completely on to 2nd Edition apart from the occasional re-release of PDFs, etc.
That's perfectly fine. I can be just as, if not more, stubborn than 'they' are. Its not that I'm discounting their view or how the rules actually break down if you are overly legalistic about them, I'm just holding the "Its my table (guide)" line and won't budge on it.
Anyway, all that is redundant. It is entirely possible to build the same kind of character without using the Empyreal bloodline, you just won't have the same casting stat between the two classes. Outside of changing your casting stat, there is nothing inherently 'better' with that bloodline than others. Its either drop Empyreal (and pick another bloodline) or just be an Empyreal sorcerer without crossblooded.
Parent Classes: Each one of the following classes lists two classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don’t stack unless specified.
Yeah, that's the rule I am familiar with on the matter. Its why I suggest taking Hexes that do not rely on class level.
You’re probably remembering an early iteration of the Hybrid class rules, or an old FAQ that said abilities of the same name stack…Relevant to a Shaman/Witch Mystic Theurge (as well as for a Hexcrafter Magus/Witch combination, although that isn't a Mystic Theurge): I could have sworn to having seen somewhere a rule that says these classes stack for determining Hex effective levels (including Save DCs), but now I can't find it to save me.If you ever find that, I'd love to see it. {. . .}Instead, I only seem to be able to find the opposite:
{. . .}
Parent Classes: Each one of the following classes lists two classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don’t stack unless specified. {. . .}(I can't find the corresponding entry on Archives of Nethys, even though all of the same hybrid classes are there.)
Could be -- that would explain why I can't find this any more. Poo.
You’re probably remembering an early iteration of the Hybrid class rules, or an old FAQ that said abilities of the same name stack…Could be -- that would explain why I can't find this any more. Poo.
Definitely not earlier version - that sentence is in the first printing of the ACG, and in the playtest, you couldn't multiclass hybrid classes with either parent class at all. This FAQ is also pretty old.
Definitely not earlier version - that sentence is in the first printing of the ACG, and in the playtest, you couldn't multiclass hybrid classes with either parent class at all. This FAQ is also pretty old.
I am actually glad they did away with the 'no multiclassing hybrid classes with their parent class' nonsense, just like they didn't make using VMC lock you out of actually multiclassing traditionally. One of the most powerful (and useful) casters I have ever made is an Arcanist/Sorcerer/Wizard combo utilizing the Phoenix and Unicorn bloodlines, the Necromancy (Life) school, the Philanthropic Magic exploit, the Faith Magic Arcane Discovery, and the Glorious Heat feat. That NPC (made with NPC elite scores) keeps up with players that are built with Gestalt rules in a mythic game, and isn't even gestalt himself.
The party, for whatever reason, absolutely adores him and they recruited him from a necromancy cult. It probably has to do with him handing out free TEMP HP, Healing, and buffs with EVERY spell he casts. You toss in VMC Oracle to get Life Link, well... The party goes WELL out of their way to protect him.
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Hmmm.... Been a bit since updated the guide. Got through some rounds of spell check and editing. Working on some more class combinations and .... may have stumbled on a combo that changes which combo I think is the most effective Mystic Theurge. Well, how I define most effective, anyway.
First, I thought it was a combination of Shaman and Sorcerer. Shared WIS casting with Empyreal, lots of spells per day with sorcerer, versatility and spell access with Shaman. But.... What if I told you there is a combination that allows a Mystic Theurge to get full Oracle Curse progression and gets to add those Oracle spells to their wizard spell book? That completely alters the viability of some of the curses for consideration.
What is it? A Pact Wizard (HHH) combined with Oracle. Sure, you aren't sharing the same acting stat, but with taking a Mystery with CHA to AC, you've nearly removed the need for DEX. The only downside aside from that, is that you only get 8th level arcane and 7th level divine spells with the 5/5/10 progression.
I've got other shenanigans in mind with this combination, but need to run the numbers before I commit to anythings solid.
Any thoughts? Did I miss something important?
^You wouldn't get true full Oracle's Curse progression. Oracle's Curse progresses as full during Oracle levels and half during other levels, which stacks with the half progression that Pact Wizard Haunted Heroes Handbook Edition gets for effective full progression there, but then you're still down to only half progression during Mystic Theurge itself. But it does give you a head start on the Oracle's Curse progression. But then note that Pact Wizard only starts doing this at 5th level, which means that to make this work you have to go 5 levels of Wizard before starting Mystic Theurge, which gives you a handicap that is worse than the benefit you get from progressing Oracle's Curse. Now, if you could get early entry to fly on the divine side, you could make this serviceable as a Wizard-focused Mystic Theurge and get 9th level arcane casting + 5th level divine casting, so Faith Magic (which as far as I know is on rock-solid Rules As Written grounds as a divine early entry method) might be up your alley. If you're flatlining Dexterity, you would need to dip Oracle early to get the Charisma-to-AC Revelation online before something kills you in the mid levels.