Looking at the feat, it says you use your own statistics.
Does your movement speed count as a statistic, or an ability that you gain from the spell?
The scent and low-light vision are presumably not statistics, but things you get.
Is there anything else you pick up when you activate the ability? It doesn't look like it, but spending an action at level 8 to gain low light vision and impreciser scent at the cost of your ability to speak or manipulate most things seems kind of bad.
... Slightly off topic, but on that same note is there a balance point for the deer instinct? It seems like they get a nearly identical attack to other single-weapon animal forms, but also gain reach at 7 which seems like it just makes it strictly superior to its direct competitors. It makes animal balance feel kind of phoned in.
Looking at the feat, it says you use your own statistics.
Looking at Understanding and Choosing Statistics in the gamemastery guide, EVERYTHING is a statistic like skills, spell DC, AC, hp, saves, damage and hit chances. Reading Creature Statistics includes the ENTIRE stat block... As such, the feat saying that "except you use your own statistics" pretty much means you get nothing as size, reach, ect are all statistics...
Is there anything else you pick up when you activate the ability? It doesn't look like it, but spending an action at level 8 to gain low light vision and impreciser scent at the cost of your ability to speak or manipulate most things seems kind of bad.
I don't even see how you can get low light and scent as Reading Creatures Statistics shows this: "Perception The creature’s Perception modifier is listed here, followed by any special senses. This means senses are stats.
I agree with graystone. Statistic means everything - otherwise the battle form rules have even more problems.. AFAICT all that you get is the appearance of the animal, the size of the animal, the animal trait, plus perhaps a long tongue. Maybe it helps Sprite Animal Barbarians??
I would hope the shark would be able to breathe underwater, and perhaps not run so fast.
I would hope the shark would be able to breathe underwater, and perhaps not run so fast.
Common sense would suggest that, and I guess that is how many would choose to play, otherwise you are a land shark. I don't think it actually says that though. Your movement rate is a statistic. Its a badly worded ability.
One thing it has going for it is that it's a Polymorph effect. That means if you're hit by another Polymorph effects, you can try to counteract it with the feat. It's not much but it's something.
I see the spell gives 5 temp hp, but what are the barbarian temporary hp?
The spell would give 10hp [it's the 3rd level effect]. The barbarian temp hp are it's rage temp hp. This means you can't do anything different than you already could with rage.
Seems more like a flavor feat to fight using the form of your animal
It COULD be used to pretend to be that creature I guess. A 'man' sized Bull, Canine or Deer wouldn't be too out of place. It's tough luck for the land Shark or the 6' frog though.
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Looking at the feat, it says you use your own statistics.
Looking at Understanding and Choosing Statistics in the gamemastery guide, EVERYTHING is a statistic like skills, spell DC, AC, hp, saves, damage and hit chances. Reading Creature Statistics includes the ENTIRE stat block... As such, the feat saying that "except you use your own statistics" pretty much means you get nothing as size, reach, ect are all statistics...
Is there anything else you pick up when you activate the ability? It doesn't look like it, but spending an action at level 8 to gain low light vision and impreciser scent at the cost of your ability to speak or manipulate most things seems kind of bad.I don't even see how you can get low light and scent as Reading Creatures Statistics shows this: "Perception The creature’s Perception modifier is listed here, followed by any special senses. This means senses are stats.
Animal form states "You gain the following statistics and abilities". Which is redundant if everything is considered statistics. Sadly what is a statistic for the spell is not clear.
I think going by the Everything is a stat reading is too restrictive for the Animal Rage feat. So, GM choice IMO.
Animal form states "You gain the following statistics and abilities". Which is redundant if everything is considered statistics. Sadly what is a statistic for the spell is not clear.
Well, it's not like there aren't other instances of the rules stating something redundant. When a section of the rules named "Reading Creatures Statistics" tells you where to look for senses, I find it hard to say it isn't a statistic.
I think going by the Everything is a stat reading is too restrictive for the Animal Rage feat. So, GM choice IMO.
They may have meant it to do something more but completely failed to indicate what that might be. I wouldn't be surprised if a DM allowed more things to be added but what that might be would be up to that DM. And if a DM said it didn't get anything, it's not like I could prove otherwise. I couldn't even argue 'too bad to be true' as it's more useful than Eschew Materials [you can counteract polymorphs 1/round and disguise yourself].
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I would assume it would only refer to the statistics called out by the spell.
You gain the following statistics and abilities regardless of which battle form you choose:
AC = 16 + your level. Ignore your armor's check penalty and Speed reduction.
5 temporary Hit Points.
Low-light vision and imprecise scent 30 feet.
One or more unarmed melee attacks specific to the battle form you choose, which are the only attacks you can use. You're trained with them. Your attack modifier is +9, and your damage bonus is +1. These attacks are Strength based (for the purpose of the enfeebled condition, for example). If your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead.
Athletics modifier of +9, unless your own modifier is higher.
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I would hope the shark would be able to breathe underwater, and perhaps not run so fast.Common sense would suggest that, and I guess that is how many would choose to play, otherwise you are a land shark. I don't think it actually says that though. Your movement rate is a statistic. Its a badly worded ability.
It uses the Animal Form spell. The wording of Animal Rage just overrides the details of that spell - removing the change of statistics. So it is talking about the block of text starting with
You gain the following statistics and abilities...
Not some general rule in the Gamemastery Guide.
So it doesn't override the granted abilities other than the statistics, the temp HP, and the unarmed attacks printed in the Animal Form spell. Maybe the movement speed is a statistic, but I don't think that doing so is intended. It is up to the GM though. But certainly the Shark rule of 'breathe underwater but not in air' is an ability, not a statistic.
You gain the following statistics and abilities...Not some general rule in the Gamemastery Guide.
We have both the gamemastery and the Bestiary [where it lists abilities under Reading Creature Statistics]. And it's in multiple places in the gamemastery: for instance it tells us that "In addition, intelligent items have a few statistics other items lack.": it then lists them as Alignment, Perception and Senses, Communication and Languages, Skill, Ability Scores, Will Save.
Or you can look in core for Animal Companions: "Each companion type has its own statistics.": it then lists Size, unarmed attacks, ability modifiers, Hit Points, Skills, Senses, Speed, special abilities and Support Benefit.
Bottom line we either have the general rules from MULTIPLE books or we have absolutely no guidance on what it's trying to tell us.
So it doesn't override the granted abilities other than the statistics, the temp HP, and the unarmed attacks printed in the Animal Form spell. Maybe the movement speed is a statistic, but I don't think that doing so is intended. It is up to the GM though. But certainly the Shark rule of 'breathe underwater but not in air' is an ability, not a statistic.
Yeah, that's have more weight of that don't talk about abilities in other places where they talk about statistics. I can't see how you could prove that abilities aren't just a subset of statistics. If we're expected to make a differentiation between statistics and abilities, the books have left us no guidelines on how that is done and where a line should be drawn between them.
I've always read "statistics" as things related to DCs (Like AC) and rolls (attack modifiers, athletics, etc.), but speed also sounds like it could apply... kind of hard to tell imo.
So in my mind when it calls out "statistics, temp HP, and unarmed attacks" that seems to cover everything except the low-light vision, imprecise scent, and maybe speed. But I can certainly understand someone seeing the senses as a statistic as well, but in that case what the heck is the point of the feat? Definitely a puzzler.
True, but the CRB itself makes a distinction between statistics and abilities in some rules.
It never really makes a distinction though, where some abilities are statistics and other are abilities. What it does is list them together 'statistics and abilities' or list abilities under statistics: neither get capitalized and that's the real issue. If you have a quote where they specify some things are stats and other are abilities, please post it as that's be a big help.
PS: the reason I don't see 'statistics and abilities' as a distinction in this case is because there can be things that are more than one thing. For instance is something said 'general feats and skill feats', it's not proof that skill feats don't count as general feats. "General feats also include a subcategory of skill feats, which expand on what you can accomplish via skills." Much the same way, abilities can be a subcategory of statistics.
It really could have been clearer.
Core: "The names of specific statistics, skills, feats, actions, and some other mechanical elements in Pathfinder are capitalized. This way, when you see the statement “a Strike targets Armor Class,” you know that both Strike and Armor Class are referring to rules." Since statistics and abilities aren't Statistics and Abilities with definitions, it's really a case, IMO, of the creator of the feat knowing what they meant when making it [or the editor doing the same] and thinking it should be clear. It couldn't be less clear IMO.
I think that it's simply meant to be a character available for all levels, so any stat meant for the combat is the barbarian's.
Abilities, perks and similar will be the animal's.
So "You transform into your animal. You gain the senses and movement speeds granted by the 3rd-level animal form spell. You also retain the constant abilities of your gear. If your animal is a frog, your tongue’s reach increases to 15 feet and if you are a Shark you breathe underwater but not in air. Dismissing the transformation gains the rage trait."?
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So "You transform into your animal. You gain the senses and movement speeds granted by the 3rd-level animal form spell. You also retain the constant abilities of your gear. If your animal is a frog, your tongue’s reach increases to 15 feet and if you are a Shark you breathe underwater but not in air. Dismissing the transformation gains the rage trait."?I think that it's simply meant to be a character available for all levels, so any stat meant for the combat is the barbarian's.
Abilities, perks and similar will be the animal's.
Since '15 feet' is a measurement and a statistic, it would be unclear whether to use the Frog Barbarian's normal reach or to use the reach given in Animal Form. Since there is no conflict with Shark Barbarian and Shark Animal Form regarding the breathing of water instead of air, there is no need to specify. And specifying this would reduce the ease of adding additional forms to Animal Form and Animal Barbarian Instinct options in the future.
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Since '15 feet' is a measurement and a statistic, it would be unclear whether to use the Frog Barbarian's normal reach or to use the reach given in Animal Form. Since there is no conflict with Shark Barbarian and Shark Animal Form regarding the breathing of water instead of air, there is no need to specify. And specifying this would reduce the ease of adding additional forms to Animal Form and Animal Barbarian Instinct options in the future.
Yes the writers clearly create an exception for something that a reasonable reading of the rules shouldn't be there. It is awful soft fluffy writing as if we the reader should just automatically know what is in the writers mind.
They need to go back and rewrite all these spells and abilities using consistent language and defined keywords. Loose natural English in no way works here.