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Trained Initiative (Ex) As long as he is wielding a weapon from the associated weapon group or is able to draw such a weapon (even if he is not currently wielding it), the fighter applies his weapon training bonus to initiative checks. In addition, if he has the Quick Draw feat and has a weapon from the appropriate weapon group that isn’t hidden, he can draw that weapon as a free action as part of making an initiative check.
Dueling
Price +14,000 gp; Aura faint transmutation; CL 5th; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons. A dueling weapon (which must be a weapon that can be used with the Weapon Finesse feat) gives the wielder a +4 enhancement bonus on initiative checks, provided the weapon is drawn and in hand when the Initiative check is made. It provides a +2 bonus on disarm checks and feint checks, a +2 bonus to CMD to resist disarm attempts, and a +2 to the DC to perform a feint against the wielder.
This is a toughy because of the conflicting verbiages "as part of making an initiative check" and "provided the weapon is drawn and in hand", so some GM's could decide that the initiative check is made a millisecond before the weapon is actually drawn, and some GM's could decide that the initiative check is made with the weapon in hand because you draw the weapon as a part of that check; but I'd say Yes, you would gain the bonus to initiative from the Dueling Enchant. Personally, I'd say if you draw the weapon as a free action as part of making the Initiative check, then you have it in your hand when you roll Initiative; free actions are essentially 0.00 seconds while under initiative. As a fighter with the feat Quick Draw, as well as an Advanced Fighter Training specifically affecting your ability to draw weapons from a specific weapon group, I'd say you are indeed that blindingly fast with that weapon. I equate it to the same as using Quick Draw to being able to pull a weapon as a free action and make an attack roll with that weapon. But I would understand if others disagree.
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I'd actually go the other way myself though this is a tough call. The way I see it is that drawing the weapon is a free action during the check but you start the check without it in hand. To me I see it as . . .
Step 1
You are strolling down the street nothing in hand.
Step 2
Something happens an attack, an odd sound, whatever and starts the initiative check still nothing in hand.
Step 3
Roll your initiative whilst simultaneously drawing your weapon. Here's where you hit the tough call and I can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand your drawing the weapon as part of your check but on the other it is PART of the check not before it so there would be a point where you have no weapon in hand.
Step 4
Combat commences and you have a drawn weapon.
It really is a gray area but for me you start the check with no weapon in hand and draw it as part of that check so you start the dice roll prior to the weapon draw because the weapon is sheathed until something starts you making that check i.e. initiative 10 - draw weapon now free action not ini-draw weapon now free action-iative 12. If it didn't specify in hand it'd be a different matter but to benefit from it you have to be holding it and you can't be holding it till you've started determining when you act.
The alternative is to have a murder hobo walking around with their weapon out 24/7. I'd most certainly let it work.
The initiative check isn't made until after you Quickdraw the weapon, and the player ges to decide which happens first, IMHO.
Plenty of easy ways around this anyway. Use Duelling on a cestus or spiked gauntlet/gauntlet or handwraps. Put it on an amulet of mighty fists for use with unarmed strikes or natural weapons also works.
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"provided the weapon is drawn and in hand when the Initiative check is made."
For me, it is clear cut, how fast you draw the weapon doesn't matter. You need to have it in hand when you make the initiative roll. Trained Initiative has a specific rule that bypasses that, but the Dueling property hasn't it.
I want to point out a further thing: your initiative roll is what decides when you can start acting during that round. If you apply the Dueling bonus to initiative when the weapon isn't drawn, you create a situation where you round start earlier than intended.
@Kaouse: yes, if the PCs want to be recognized by the populace and guards as murderhobos, they can go around with their weapon drawn in the middle of the city. But then they can't complain about being treated as murderhobos. Actions have consequences.
I have to agree with those who say it does not work.
Trained Initiative grants you the bonus even if you don’t draw the weapon. The feat Quick Draw is not required and a fighter without it still gets the bonus to his initiative as long as he is able to draw the weapon. Technically they don’t even have to draw the weapon, they just have to be able to draw the weapon. I could see a GM requiring drawing the weapon as a reasonable house rule, but RAW they are not required to.
. . .
For me, it is clear cut, how fast you draw the weapon doesn't matter. You need to have it in hand when you make the initiative roll. Trained Initiative has a specific rule that bypasses that, but the Dueling property hasn't it. . . .
See... this is why martials cannot have nice things. Because of lawyers.
The actions are effectively simultaneous. I understand that the text is being parsed down to each effect, and because you can chart which effect triggers another, you don't get the benefits of the triggered effect.
There are spells like contingency and contingent action and feats like contingent channeling, and these things are allowed to negating the inciting effect. Contingent channeling allows you to spend a channel and if an effect would bring a character to negative hit points, he's healed by the channel. If the channel is sufficient that he wouldn't be in negative hit points, he's not in negative hit points.
This is similar. The initiative triggers a free action weapon draw. A free action functionally takes no time, though a DM can limit the amount of free actions. Because the initiative triggers the weapon in hand, the weapon is in hand 'as part of making an initiative check,' like a contingency... but since it's skill and not magic, let's not let the Fighter who wasted five levels in Fighter take advantage of the weapon he spent good money on... NO IAIJUTSU DUELS FOR YOU!
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See... this is why martials cannot have nice things. Because of lawyers.
No, they will not have nice things because they are always crying they are a poor, suppressed group that only gets to do more damage than any other group.
You have noticed that we are speaking of a weapon magic property?
It has nothing to do with being a martial or not.
Trained initiative works, and that is a Fighter's ability, so actually, it is the reverse of what you say: the Fighter (a martial) gets the benefit, other people don't get it from a magic weapon that any class can use.
. . .You have noticed that we are speaking of a weapon magic property?
It has nothing to do with being a martial or not. . . .
The original question is about how those three things interact, the Fighter's Trained Initiative feature, the Dueling weapon property, and the Quick Draw feat.
I saw a lot of people saying said interaction doesn't work, some saying they'd let it work, but understand why others wouldn't, and still others mentioned quick work arounds.
I apologize that I didn't adequately convey my tone. I thought the all caps iaijutsu bit would clue others into my intended silliness. I (attempt to) snark in (good) fun.
See... this is why martials cannot have nice things. Because of lawyers.
No, they will not have nice things because they are always crying they are a poor, suppressed group that only gets to do more damage than any other group.
You have noticed that we are speaking of a weapon magic property?
It has nothing to do with being a martial or not.Trained initiative works, and that is a Fighter's ability, so actually, it is the reverse of what you say: the Fighter (a martial) gets the benefit, other people don't get it from a magic weapon that any class can use.
Fighters don't get to do more damage than any other group. Look at any DPR Olympics thread and I challenge you to find a single Fighter build in any of them.
Pathfinder has always been a game where spells can do almost anything while non-magic abilities are forced to be "realistic" for some reason. Naturally, this includes the area of dealing damage.
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See... this is why martials cannot have nice things. Because of lawyers.
No, they will not have nice things because they are always crying they are a poor, suppressed group that only gets to do more damage than any other group.
You have noticed that we are speaking of a weapon magic property?
It has nothing to do with being a martial or not.Trained initiative works, and that is a Fighter's ability, so actually, it is the reverse of what you say: the Fighter (a martial) gets the benefit, other people don't get it from a magic weapon that any class can use.
Fighters don't get to do more damage than any other group. Look at any DPR Olympics thread and I challenge you to find a single Fighter build in any of them.
Pathfinder has always been a game where spells can do almost anything while non-magic abilities are forced to be "realistic" for some reason. Naturally, this includes the area of dealing damage.
Fighter =/= Martials (to be precise, Fighters are one of the martial classes, but not the only one)
Trained Initiative is a Fighter ability, but the phrase I replied to is: "See... this is why martials cannot have nice things."
DPR Olympics mean very little, as those are totally artificial. In a campaign, the majority of them will not work well (working well includes starting from level 1 and being useful for most to all of the campaign without spending in-game months into retraining).