Access to clan pistol in PFS without being a dwarf

[Thod]

2nd edition - Does the PFS access overule the need of being a dwarf for buying a clan pistol?

PFS Note The clan pistol’s ammunition costs 1 sp for 10 rounds. Gunslingers (and characters with the Gunslinger archetype) gain access to all uncommon weapons, ammunition, and related items from Chapter 4 of this book, with the exception of Beast Guns and any limited or restricted items, unless the item indicates otherwise. Characters with a Home Region of Alkenstar, Dongun Hold, or the Shackles have access to all black powder guns, ammunition and related accessories.

I'm told all it needs is setting the Home Region and any character can buy a Clan Pistol - which at least lore wise is pretty problematic.

[Nefreet]

I don't think so. The book talks about needing to fulfill multiple Access conditions when it comes to Firearms:

Guns & Gears, page 150 wrote:

The clan pistol and dwarven scattergun have the dwarf trait, the mithral tree has the elf trait, and the flingflenser has the goblin trait. However, feats such as Dwarven Weapon Familiarity, which normally grants access to all uncommon weapons with the dwarf trait, don't grant access to firearms with the listed traits unless the character separately has access to firearms. For instance, dwarves who've never seen a firearm and then train in traditional dwarven weapons don't have access to clan pistols and dwarven scatterguns. You can find more information on this and other firearm access details on page 148.

So a Dwarf with the Dwarven Weapon Familiarity feat, who's Home Region is Dongun Hold, would have Access to Clan Pistols, but not just any Dwarf (or other Ancestry) who's Home Region is Dongun Hold.

[horsey-rounders]

I'm the person asking, and that particular bit of text is referring to ancestry weapon familiarity feats, and how they don't automatically grant access to firearms. It's a separate issue. The offending text is the PFS note stating that

Quote:

Characters with a Home Region of Alkenstar, Dongun Hold, or the Shackles have access to all black powder guns, ammunition and related accessories.

To me, this is pretty clear: if you're from these regions, you now have an access clause to all black powder firearms. The Clan Pistol is a black powder firearm, and it's Pathfinder Society Standard, therefore you meet the access clause.

The [Dwarf] trait doesn't actually change how any given access clause works, it just makes it eligible for other access routes, such as being a Gunslinger from Cheliax or some other place, and then taking Dwarven Weapon Familiarity.

Is it cheeky? Sure, but as long as dueling pistols are 11 bloody gold, I don't really have much in the way of options for this build. FWIW I do have a plausible story as to why this elf has a dwarven-made pistol like this, but that's immaterial to the actual question at hand.

[Nefreet]

horsey-rounders wrote:

Is it cheeky? Sure

So it sounds like you know you're treading on thin ice with that interpretation ;-)

I would probably just suggest sparing yourself (and your GMs) the stress and save up 11gp for the weapon you actually want (or 35gp for a +1 weapon).

[Thod]

Nefreet wrote:

I would probably just suggest sparing yourself (and your GMs) the stress and save up 11gp for the weapon you actually want (or 35gp for a +1 weapon).

Nope - that is why we are here

As GM here is my take

Pro - yes a clan gun is fine to use

There is a way to read the access condition for PFS to overrule both access conditions.

--------------------

Con - no a clan gun isn't fine to use

We are talking a brand new 1st level character and the player already voiced that he likely will use the rebuild rules anyhow to rebuild that character

The player jokes that if there is an errata then he should get credit for it - so he is aware that this relies on a certain reading of the rules

There is a boxed text that explains the the reverse isn't allowed - a dwarf doesn't get access to the clan pistol as he has to fulfill both requirements. This seems to show RAI that the reverse is on shaky grounds but that box is (not surprisingly) missing in the access document.

Asked first time how he thinks he got access to the gun it was cheekily suggested that his character killed a dwarf. I cheekily suggested back in this case I would have to suggest infamy.

----------------------

All of this doesn't play out in a vacuum. Lore wise the Society has issues with how they are perceived. This has been there since Season 1 of second edition - and it seems to come to the forefront in this season.

The group just starts 1-01 and the first task they want to do is - influence Gorm Greathammer - Faction leader and source of lots of lore. The scenario suggests to lower the DC for good roleplay.

So I'm asked to reward good backstories and interactions for everyone else and judge it best using my understanding of the world of Golarion but in the case of a clan pistol I just ignore any embarrassment to a dwarf caused or any taboo broken as it is just lore and fluff.

I would be a lot more forgiving in different situations.

[Tomppa]

There isn't an easy answer here.

On one hand, "The Intent is Clearly No" - per the book, just having the dwarven weapon familiarity isn't enough, you need access too - it should be obvious that the same holds true in revers: having just access isn't enough, you need the feat too. Otherwise that bit of rule could be better formatted to indicate that the feat has -no- relation to firearm weapons - after all, if you had access through firearms, why would you need the feat, and if you didn't need the feat, why does the text state that you need the firearm access even if you have the feat?

On the other hand, the way access is written here is explicit but clunky. Gunslingers have access to all firearms. Characters from Dongun Hold regardless of their ancestry, have access to all blackpowder firearms. Those are clear, explicit, access conditions that include the clan pistol.

As it currently stands, if a player shows up with a clan pistol (or a goblin or elven firearm) without having the relevant ancestry feat, I would allow it, because that's what the access says. However, I would warn them (or any player currently planning a build around this) that this appears more like an unintended loophole in the rules rather than the intended access, and this may very well change in the future, so they should probably build or plan around a different option, or be prepared to retrain when the hammer does come down.

[Nefreet]

Ah. Then I'll probably make this my last post.

Every Society veteran knows "one of those" players who you just have to roll your eyes at, then either tell them Yes or No, and move on with the game.

There's a guy locally who I love gaming with. Been doing it for a decade now. But he's always trying to STRETCH the most out of every interpretation.

It's almost like an OOC Diplomacy check. You acknowledge the humor and/or logic that got them to their conclusion, laugh and agree, and then try to steer them into a compromise.

The answer I generally resort to these days is one of caution. I might agree/disagree with an ambiguity, but that doesn't mean that the next GM will. And so then the real question becomes whether you're comfortable having that discussion every time you sit down to a game.

For me, that's too much worry and stress. And time out of everyone's day. But for newer Society players, I understand the inexperience and the desire to push against boundaries.

I'm sure whatever ruling you decide to go with, Thod, will be fine.

[horsey-rounders]

For what it's worth, the choice of a Clan Pistol (or an item that is functionally like a clan pistol, and so likely made by a master dwarven weaponsmith who makes such things) has helped me a lot to flesh out some actual story for this character, and in a positive way.

And is someone being gifted a handcrafted pistol any less absurd than yet another Hugh Manfighter adopted by gnomes?

I get where you're all coming from, but really. It's an investigator. Hardly the most munchkin build, and hardly the most absurd or implausible character to be seen in PFS.

I'm not intending at all to be antagonistic or anything of the sort, and if Thod said "no", then I wouldn't run it in this game. But I do feel like I'm being talked down on a little as "that kind of player", and I'm certainly not asking for anything more than what the rules clearly allow and even then only with his permission, so I think that's unfair.

As for rebuild, I don't intend to rebuild this one. The question was in regards to rebuilding another, older character entirely as this one, but they only have like 1xp anyway, so I've decided to keep that character.

[Thod]

I think it is time to move on. I brought this up as I think it is problematic.

The main redeeming sentence here is this

horsey-rounders wrote:

has helped me a lot to flesh out some actual story for this character, and in a positive way.

And no - you can not reflavour a clan pistol to have the same qualities but not being a clan pistol. We had these discussions here years ago when reflavouring of dogs to pigs (or the other way round) started to have in game consequences when the society started to deal with goblins and it did have an impact because of the background lore.

Being adopted by the Dwarves of Dongun Hold is likely the safest way to ensure you don't lose the pistol at higher levels if an errata for this gets written.

I don't go with

horsey-rounders wrote:

the rules clearly allow

There wouldn't be this thread and a discussion in the rules questions on the discord server where we play if it would be clear.

And as you are about following RAW and being cheeky - you are aware that your character sheet unequivocally, 100%, clearly does not give you access to the pistol if I do a RAW interpretation of the rules ;)

why:

You haven't filled out your home region

I'm aware Pathbuilder doesn't has a field for home region. So if you ask me to get an errata or it is legal I could ask you cheeky to get a home region field in Pathbuilder ...

Not asking for that - or to change to a character sheet with a home region field - but just showing how insisting on RAW to the letter can backfire.

Advice - add it to the notes field in details

The group moves along at the party. They are keen to impress Gorm Greathammer first. He seems to be in a discussion with Kreighton Shane - the Society's Master of Scrolls.
Kreighton seems to completely ignore you as he keeps talking to Gorm while there seem to be two conflicting emotions that show on Gorm. On one hand there seems to be a plea of help in his eyes.
On the other there seems a raised eyebrow as he sees what clearly is a dwarven clan pistol - dangling from the belt of Muriel.

[Alex Speidel]

Thod wrote:

2nd edition - Does the PFS access overule the need of being a dwarf for buying a clan pistol?

No.

[horsey-rounders]

Alex Speidel wrote:

Thod wrote:

2nd edition - Does the PFS access overule the need of being a dwarf for buying a clan pistol?

No.

In that case, I'm happy to change it out.

I'd suggest that an errata or official clarification is made, similar to the ancestry access side bar, specifying this or expanding on the access clause. Something like, "PFS Note: Characters from Alkenstar, Dongun Hold, and The Shackles have access to all black powder firearms that are not normally accessed through ancestry feats, such as (but not limited to) the Clan Pistol, Dwarven Scattergun, and Three Peaked Tree." Because the way it currently reads, without a clarification like this, is that those areas alone are enough to access.

I imagine this is probably a quirk of using the same mechanic to restrict ancestry related weapons to also restrict general firearms access.

[medtec28]

I wish to echo this sentiment. Perhaps the term access needs to be further characterize, as it seems if a gunslinger has "access to all firearms" I assumed that included the clan pistol. Using my retrospectoscope, I can see that this was likely a mistake as a clan pistol is a half-price dueling pistol with an ancestry trait.

[Tempest_Knight]

Alex Speidel wrote:

Thod wrote:

2nd edition - Does the PFS access overule the need of being a dwarf for buying a clan pistol?

No.

... While I support this rule ('Ancestry' weapons need Ancestry Weapon' Feat)...

It is currently in flagrant conflict with the access granted in the Character Options section...

Resorces and Options For Pathfinder Society Characters wrote:

Gunslingers (and characters with the Gunslinger archetype) gain access to all uncommon weapons, ammunition, and related items from Chapter 4 of this book, with the exception of Beast Guns and any limited or restricted items below, unless the item indicates otherwise.

The Clan Pistol is an Uncommon Weapon from Chapter 4... as are all other 'Ancestry' guns...

We NEED a correction to the Resorces and Options For Pathfinder Society Characters (Character Options) page to reflect this intent as it is currently diametrically opposed to the written rules.

[Richard Lowe]

Tempest_Knight wrote:

We NEED a correction to the Resorces and Options For Pathfinder Society Characters (Character Options) page to reflect this intent as it is currently diametrically opposed to the written rules.

Already covered.

Quote:

[...] unless the item indicates otherwise.

The sidebar expressly indicates otherwise, no changes or special guidelines required.

[Tempest_Knight]

Richard Lowe wrote:

Tempest_Knight wrote:

We NEED a correction to the Resorces and Options For Pathfinder Society Characters (Character Options) page to reflect this intent as it is currently diametrically opposed to the written rules.

Already covered.

Quote:

[...] unless the item indicates otherwise.

The sidebar expressly indicates otherwise, no changes or special guidelines required.

The guidance/rule quoted from page 150, only restricts access through the 'ancestry weapon prof' feats... stating clearly that 'a elf/dwarf/etc who has never seen a firearm and trains in traditional ancestry weapons does not gain access to 'ancestry' firearms.'

The specific example being a Dwarf who does not have access to firearms does not gain access to the Clan Pistol and Dwarven Scattergun by taking Dwarven Weapon Training.

It says nothing about how the Character Options page grants access.

Currently there is no rule overriding the Character Options grant of ALL Uncommon weapons to all Gunslingers.

[Alex Speidel]

The following text will be added to the next update of the Character Options page:

Quote:

As stated on page 148 of Guns & Gears, feats that grant access to weapons with ancestry traits (such as Dwarven Weapon Familiarity), do not grant access to firearms with the listed trait unless the character separately has access to firearms. The reverse is also true, that general access to firearms does not grant access to ancestry-specific weapons. If you have access to firearms, you can gain access to firearms with an ancestry trait (dwarf, elf, goblin, etc.) by selecting an ancestry feat or other option that specifically grants it (for example, to gain access to a clan pistol, take the Clan Pistol feat or Dwarven Weapon Familiarity feat).

[Andrew 58]

Hi Alex,
That really sucks. I created an Inventor Goblin from Alkenstar as a PFS Character I can apply my 'Outlaws of Alkenstar' Chronicles to. The Inventor already is trained in Simple and Martial, My Inventor comes from Alkenstar and is a Goblin. The Weapon Familiarity feat gives me nothing except access to the weapon I want 'Big Boom Gun' because it has the Goblin trait . If I'm reading correctly coming from Alkenstar and being a Goblin are not enough. We get very few Ancestry Feats and to have to burn one simply to get access and no other benefits seems disappointing...and no, I won't be using a dog slicer or horse chopper anytime soon. Again, I hope I'm reading what you said correctly.
I'm still disappointed, however thanks heaps for all the work you do for us in PFS.
Andrew.

[Blake's Tiger]

As I understand what Alex quoted:

You gain access to specific firearms for being from Alkenstar (Home Region: Impossible Lands), but not to racial firearms without the Weapon Familiarity feat.

Just being a Goblin is insufficient, just as as being a Goblin is insufficient to gain access to a Horse Chopper.

That said, the Unofficial Guide lists Big Boom Gun on the "Beast Gun" 20 ACP boon, so that may solve your problem and save you an Ancestry Feat.

[Nefreet]

Andrew 58 wrote:

I won't be using a dog slicer or horse chopper anytime soon.

It's no different for a Goblin who won't be using a Big Boom Gun, though.

They still need Goblin Weapon Familiarity to use the Dogslicer and Horsechopper.

[Andrew 58]

Blake's Tiger wrote:

As I understand what Alex quoted:

You gain access to specific firearms for being from Alkenstar (Home Region: Impossible Lands), but not to racial firearms without the Weapon Familiarity feat.

Just being a Goblin is insufficient, just as as being a Goblin is insufficient to gain access to a Horse Chopper.

That said, the Unofficial Guide lists Big Boom Gun on the "Beast Gun" 20 ACP boon, so that may solve your problem and save you an Ancestry Feat.

Thank you so much for pointing me to this boon. Now it doesn't suck at all. Thanks again, Andrew.

[Andrew 58]

Nefreet wrote:

Andrew 58 wrote:

I won't be using a dog slicer or horse chopper anytime soon.

It's no different for a Goblin who won't be using a Big Boom Gun, though.

They still need Goblin Weapon Familiarity to use the Dogslicer and Horsechopper.

I still find it hard to understand that a Goblin whose class gives him trained in Martial Weapons (eg Ranger, Fighter. Inventor), who grew up in a Goblin Setting (eg Village, city community etc), but never saw a dog slicer or horse chopper or knows somewhere he can get one is quite frankly a bit bazaar to me. Just like my Goblin Inventor whose home region is Alkenstar but somehow missed the Goblin firearms. I believe the Ancestry Feat is for those who have classes which don't give a trained ability in those weapons. My Elf Alchemist took that Elven Feat because he wasn't trained in Martial and I got several really good weapons trained from it. Still all irrelevant, as Blake's Tiger pointed me in the right direction.

[Nefreet]

Andrew 58 wrote:

I still find it hard to understand that a Goblin whose class gives him trained in Martial Weapons (eg Ranger, Fighter. Inventor), who grew up in a Goblin Setting (eg Village, city community etc), but never saw a dog slicer or horse chopper or knows somewhere he can get one is quite frankly a bit bazaar to me.

Sure. I can try to help you with that.

That goblin, trained in Martial Weapons, whose tribe wields those traditional goblin weapons, is exactly the type who would possess that feat. That flavor is then correctly represented mechanically by the feat.

It would make less sense for such a goblin to not have that feat, or to choose a feat completely unrelated to that background.

[Tomppa]

Andrew 58 wrote:

Blake's Tiger wrote:

As I understand what Alex quoted:

You gain access to specific firearms for being from Alkenstar (Home Region: Impossible Lands), but not to racial firearms without the Weapon Familiarity feat.

Just being a Goblin is insufficient, just as as being a Goblin is insufficient to gain access to a Horse Chopper.

That said, the Unofficial Guide lists Big Boom Gun on the "Beast Gun" 20 ACP boon, so that may solve your problem and save you an Ancestry Feat.

Thank you so much for pointing me to this boon. Now it doesn't suck at all. Thanks again, Andrew.

According to the FAQ it's not in the Beastgun boon, but rather in the "Avid Collector - Cobbled Firearms" boon.