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Also I'd like an answer to 1) and 2) preferably with explanations.
1) I don't see any reason you couldn't take longer to do something: for instance, if you REALLY want to you can take a normal interact action to pull out a shuriken without throwing it: I'm not sure why you would though as it takes an action [you only get to do it without taking an action while striking]. Might as well move to trigger a reaction.
2) Tough one. Mark has stated that you don't need a hand to reload with a repeater so IMO no it's just pulling the trigger. This is purely based on Marks comments though.
If you can reload a reload 0 weapon without firing, then you can simply do it twice in one round, the first one to soak the interrupting critical hit, and the second before you fire your weapon.
Sure, if you want to take 2 actions to fire.
If you can't reload a reload 0 weapon without firing, then it follows that you can't reload a repeating crossbow / air repeater pre-combat. To me, this seems too weird to be true.
As above, they have been rules differently so one doesn't require anything past pulling the trigger and one needing to physically pull out ammo. Note that the heavy repeater DOES require a hand and it's reload 1 does provoke.
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If you can reload a reload 0 weapon without firing, then you can simply do it twice in one round, the first one to soak the interrupting critical hit, and the second before you fire your weapon.
I guess that would work.
It would be equivalent in the worst case to just try the attack to begin with, then when it gets interrupted try again. ... Hmm... Unless that would progress MAP for the first failed attack. I guess that would be a negative that could be avoided. Not sure that it is worth the extra action cost though.
If you can't reload a reload 0 weapon without firing, then it follows that you can't reload a repeating crossbow / air repeater pre-combat. To me, this seems too weird to be true.
English strikes again. Repeating weapons have two meanings of 'load'. One to load the magazine of ammunition that takes 3 actions and a free hand. The other the automatic reload of an individual piece of ammunition to make the weapon ready to fire.
You can absolutely reload a magazine in a repeating weapon pre-combat.
To clarify, it's a thing then, for bow users to spend an action to reload their bow before combat, so their first ranged strike in combat can't be prevented by AoO crit?
I would allow it. If everyone else in the party says that they are drawing weapons in preparation for a combat that is imminent but hasn't started yet, then I figure that a bow user has their first arrow knocked and the shuriken user has one in-hand. And that would prevent needing to reload the weapon before making the first Strike with it. So while the AoO would still be provoked for the attack with a ranged weapon, it wouldn't be interrupted on a crit.
I'm not convinced on begging the question. It looks like a valid question to me.The point remains that it says if the reload entry is 0 the number of interact actions is 0, and "drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action".What would you call "drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action." if not a subordinate action? We know that a weapon with a Reload entry requires interact actions to reload and if it's subsumed in the attack it's a subordinate action.This is begging the question. The idea that reloading requires interact actions when the number of them is 0 is literally what's being discussed. Pre-supposing one interpretation of that is of course going to lead to the conclusion that that interpretation is correct.
If you accept the highlighted text, which was presupposed to be true, then there's no point in having the discussion, as that is quite literally what was being debated. It's tantamount to saying "we know X is a part of Y, therefore X is a subordinate part of Y" (same thing, just slightly different words). I'm not saying that the conclusion reached is false. I was simply pointing out a logical fallacy.
Regardless, as the second part of that post attests to I have already been convinced that reload 0 does, in fact, trigger an AoO. Though I believe the reason for that is different from the one claimed by many here, which is surprising to me.
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I would be kinda irked if I had an ability that said my ranged attacks didn't provoke, and my GM nailed me on the reload 0 anyways.
Not saying that's wrong necessarily, but I imagine I wouldn't be alone in those feelings.
I would be kinda irked if I had an ability that said my ranged attacks didn't provoke, and my GM nailed me on the reload 0 anyways.
Not saying that's wrong necessarily, but I imagine I wouldn't be alone in those feelings.
And I'm pretty sure that any ability allowing that would cover all its basis.
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And I'm pretty sure that any ability allowing that would cover all its basis.I would be kinda irked if I had an ability that said my ranged attacks didn't provoke, and my GM nailed me on the reload 0 anyways.
Not saying that's wrong necessarily, but I imagine I wouldn't be alone in those feelings.
I agree 100% with this. The hypothetical ability here that prevents Ranged Attacks from provoking AoO or other similar things is overarching and describes the whole "Activity" (Oh no, dear gods what have I gotten myself into invoking Activity in this thread !!!) of the Ranged Attack. This kind of thing very much strikes me as specific versus general and an Ability that gives a blanket protection for those Ranged Attacks should override the normal rules for this stuff.
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And I'm pretty sure that any ability allowing that would cover all its basis.I would be kinda irked if I had an ability that said my ranged attacks didn't provoke, and my GM nailed me on the reload 0 anyways.
Not saying that's wrong necessarily, but I imagine I wouldn't be alone in those feelings.
Unfortunately not; this states nothing about the Interact from reloading, though like Raving Dork implies, I would rule the feat works for the reloading portion too.
Mobile Shot Stance: Your shots become nimble and deadly. While you’re in this stance, your ranged Strikes don’t trigger Attacks of Opportunity or other reactions that are triggered by a ranged attack.Though depending on how one parses the actions, would allowing bows to reload w/o provoking suggest the same from crossbows & other "Reload 1" (or more) weapons?
And I'm pretty sure that any ability allowing that would cover all its basis.I would be kinda irked if I had an ability that said my ranged attacks didn't provoke, and my GM nailed me on the reload 0 anyways.
Not saying that's wrong necessarily, but I imagine I wouldn't be alone in those feelings.
Unfortunately not; this states nothing about the Interact from reloading, though like Ravingdork implies, I would rule the feat works for the reloading portion too.
Mobile Shot Stance: Your shots become nimble and deadly. While you’re in this stance, your ranged Strikes don’t trigger Attacks of Opportunity or other reactions that are triggered by a ranged attack.Though depending on how one parses the actions, would allowing bows to reload w/o provoking suggest the same from crossbows & other "Reload 1" (or more) weapons?
Makes sense.
Though depending on how one parses the actions, would allowing bows to reload w/o provoking suggest the same from crossbows & other "Reload 1" (or more) weapons?
Clarifying: You are asking if using an Interact action to reload a Reload 1 weapon should provoke reactions even if a Reload 0 weapon is ruled to not provoke reactions because the character doesn't have to use any Interact actions to reload it?
And I'm pretty sure that any ability allowing that would cover all its basis.I would be kinda irked if I had an ability that said my ranged attacks didn't provoke, and my GM nailed me on the reload 0 anyways.
Not saying that's wrong necessarily, but I imagine I wouldn't be alone in those feelings.
If I remember correctly, some other threads have pointed out that it doesn't. But I also agree that it should - because otherwise what is the point.
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From a RAW standpoint, unless the PC is using some ability that allows them to bake the Reload Actions into the Strike as part of a multi-action "Activity" (Oh no, I did it again!!!) I don't think that Mobile Shot Stance will prevent AoO or other Reactions from triggering on the Reload since they are very much separate from the Strike/Attack made with the Crossbow.
From a fairness and QoL perspective though, I'd just let it fly and give the Reload a pass to work with the ability as Crossbows specifically could use all the help they can get with longer Reload times.
Though depending on how one parses the actions, would allowing bows to reload w/o provoking suggest the same from crossbows & other "Reload 1" (or more) weapons?Clarifying: You are asking if using an Interact action to reload a Reload 1 weapon should provoke reactions even if a Reload 0 weapon is ruled to not provoke reactions because the character doesn't have to use any Interact actions to reload it?
No.
I believe there is an Interact action w/ a Reload 0 Strike*, and that it shouldn't provoke w/ Mobile Shot Stance (otherwise the Stance becomes extremely limited in the "too bad to be true" sense).Then if that's the case (big "if" judging from the growth rate of this thread), wouldn't Interact actions to reload also be covered? And yet that doesn't seem right, even while the premises seem correct.
*the rules for Reload seem to be clear that the reloading still occurs w/ a Reload 0 weapon, it's just subsumed into the Strike. Of course we're in fringe territory here where Paizo likely felt little need to get too persnickety on phrasing.
Sidenote, it seems that a Reload 0 would only provoke once, while a Reload 1 (since the actions are separate) would provoke once for loading and once for shooting.
I believe there is an Interact action w/ a Reload 0 Strike*, and that it shouldn't provoke w/ Mobile Shot Stance (otherwise the Stance becomes extremely limited in the "too bad to be true" sense).
Then if that's the case (big "if" judging from the growth rate of this thread), wouldn't Interact actions to reload also be covered? And yet that doesn't seem right, even while the premises seem correct.
That makes more sense.
Yeah, I can see the logic. It makes sense that Mobile Shot Stance and other such things should also work on the reload actions for crossbows and such too if we are allowing it to work on the reload actions for bows.
Sidenote, it seems that a Reload 0 would only provoke once, while a Reload 1 (since the actions are separate) would provoke once for loading and once for shooting.
Agreed. Crossbow would provoke AoO for Interact action to reload, and for ranged weapon attack when firing it.
I see nothing in the rules that supports a reload 0 weapon makes the attack have the interact action. As such, in any game I ran, firing a bow would not have to do the flat check for black tentacles.
It fits the rules as written, I guess. But it seems a bit strange that pulling an arrow from a quiver, knocking it to the bow string, and pulling it back has no penalties for those actions. But pulling a crossbow bolt out of a quiver, knocking it to the crossbow string, and pulling it back does. Why the difference?
Two additional questions:
1) Is it possible to reload a reload 0 weapon without firing it?
2) Would an AoO critical hit interrupt a repeating weapon reload 0?
1. By RAW, no. The action to attack also includes the activity to load, meaning a Reload 0 weapon, by RAW, can't be loaded without Striking with it as well, in the same way that I can't use a Quick Draw feat to simply draw an item to use instead. They are combined, meaning anything associated with one is inevitably connected with the other.
2. Yes. By RAW, the action to load and strike with the weapon gets disrupted, since striking with the weapon in this case applies the Manipulate trait to the Strike activity, since again, both activities are combined to the same action. In addition, there is plenty of precedent to disrupting parts of activities ruining the entire activity, such as casting spells or performing Sudden Charges (and being stopped by Stand Still or Disrupt Prey). If I perform a 2 action Reload activity for a Reload 2, I would only provoke one AoO, but a critical hit would ruin the entire activity, by RAW.
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I see nothing in the rules that supports a reload 0 weapon makes the attack have the interact action. As such, in any game I ran, firing a bow would not have to do the flat check for black tentacles.
Loading weapons takes an Interact activity to do (the amount of actions required depends on the weapon being reloaded) and Interact has the Manipulate trait. For a Reload 0 weapon, the (free) action to load the weapon is combined with the action to Strike, meaning a failed flat check results in a wasted attack action.
Given that bows are superior to every other ranged weapon in other manners, it makes sense from both a balance standpoint and a realism standpoint. (Reaching into an equipped bag to pull out an item counts as an Interact, but reaching into an equipped quiver to pull out an arrow somehow doesn't?)
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You can think it makes sense, but that isn't what the rules say. Swinging a weapon takes probably the same effort, but isn't an interact action.
I already said what the rules say. You just don't like what those rules are. Which is fine. But I'm not for misleading people just to tell them things they want to hear.
It's not a matter of effort, it's a matter of moving free hands making a point of vulnerability to exploit. Even disregarding that, Paizo disagrees with your consensus of requiring more or less effort, either out of abstraction or out of balance reasons.
This is literally Pre-Errata Battle Medicine all over again, where we argue that armless medics can function just as well as ones without arms. You don't need two hands to use Reload 0 weapons because they don't require Interact activities to wield, so you might as well turn bows into 1 Handed weapons. Look guys, I'm dual wielding bows because I don't need hands to load my weapon, because interact activities aren't required for Reload 0 items!
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I know what the rules say; I believe all of you believe differently. We all have our own opinions.
Edit: And I don't really care what the developer intent is. If I knew what they intended, I would follow it. I just think all of you are making up rules that don't exist.
If you knew what the rules said, you would understand that combining activities (reload + strike) also combines traits, not unlike spellcasting. Otherwise attacks with Reload 0 weapons would not reduce MAP, since there is no Attack trait included in that specific activity.
Reload:
While all weapons need some amount of time to get into position, many ranged weapons also need to be loaded and reloaded. This entry indicates how many Interact actions it takes to reload such weapons. This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action. If an item takes 2 or more actions to reload, the GM determines whether they must be performed together as an activity, or you can spend some of those actions during one turn and the rest during your next turn.
When a weapon has "Reload 0" it means that the Interact Action is coupled with the Strike. Kinda like Sudden Charge, which mixes a Strike Action inside two Stride Actions.
About Mobile Shot Stance, I'm firm on the camp that it was an oversight by Paizo (or maybe it's somehow intentional). Personally, I would run it as RAI instead of pure RAW.
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There is nothing in reload that assigns a manipulate trait. It just requires interact actions. The interact action has the manipulate trait, but if you aren't required to take any interact actions, I don't see where that assigns the attack the manipulate trait.
Reload has Interact, which has Manipulate. By the transitive property, Reload has Manipulate. It doesn't matter if it takes 1 action, 2 actions, 4 actions, or 0 actions. If the activity specifies the trait, it has that trait. Arguing otherwise is ridiculous.
This is like saying Sudden Charge has Strike, which has the Attack trait, but Sudden Charge isn't a Strike, and doesn't have the Attack trait, so it doesn't reduce or is affected by MAP because you're adding a trait to something that doesn't have it.
Both are equally absurd in the same exact manner, one is just more subtle about its absurdity that it doesn't come up much in actual play.
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Reading the rules, I believe reload is combined with strike. Reload has no manipulate trait. Taking no interact actions has no manipulate trait, because you aren't taking the interact action.
You aren't taking an action for interact because the action you interact with is subsumed into the strike, it literally says in the Reload rules: "...drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action." That doesn't mean you don't interact to draw, because then that means this entry in the Hands portion of the Weapon rules makes no sense:
A few items, such as a longbow, list 1+ for its Hands entry. You can hold a weapon with a 1+ entry in one hand, but the process of shooting it requires using a second [hand] to retrieve, nock, and loose an arrow. This means you can do things with your free hand while holding the bow without changing your grip, but the other hand must be free when you shoot.
Why do I need a free hand to draw when I don't need to interact to reload the weapon? Interact requires a free hand, but I'm not interacting to reload, so why do I need a free hand by this entry to use a bow?
The rules going out of their way to specifically address how a bow is loaded, which is similar to spelling out how you interact with the quiver and the bow to fire with them. I'm telling you that it goes against RAW and that the intent is relatively obvious.
I know this doesn't help, but I would probably Rool of Cool this one.
Normally I'd say that the archer needs to make the Flat 5 check because it keeps the Grabbed condition consistent.
However, if I described the tentacle pinning the player to a wall or the ground, or holding the player upside down by their feet, and that player specifically points that out to me... then good on them; I'd allow them to fire away because my description left their arms free.
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Whatever, we will never agree.
What you are proposing is like a GM saying you provoke. You ask why. He says you did an interact 0 action by standing there doing nothing.
Neither will you agree with the rules. You can ignore them if you want, of course, but this won't change the fact that you're wrong about their interpretation.
Just because reloading has no box with trait text doesn't mean that its explanation can be ignored. By your definition no Reload in the game ever triggers a reaction because no matter if it's Reload 0 or Reload 50, since by your very, very, very wrong interpretation Reload doesn't have any traits.
I can't even believe the fact that this thread has so many answers and developed in so much discussion, let alone fathom the idea that there are people arguing against the obvious.
Reload specifically calls out it is the number of Interact Actions it take to reload something, then it singles out Reload 0 as a Free Interact Action as part of the Strike Action when using such a weapon (whether it's a Shuriken or Bow). This is really, really not complicated.
The whole issue basically boils down to: Interact Action=Triggers AoO's and require Flat Checks from Grappled.
It's not even a big deal and a straight up buff compared to the previous edition (you had very limited options while grappled in PF1e).
Things like this is why I'm pleased starfinder just reduced what triggers attacks of opportunity to 'Casting spells, ranged attacks, and moving from threat range' rather than a very common trait.
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You guys are so invested in what you think the rules say, you don't bother to read themReload: https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=228
While all weapons need some amount of time to get into position, many ranged weapons also need to be loaded and reloaded. This entry indicates how many Interact actions it takes to reload such weapons. This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action. If an item takes 2 or more actions to reload, the GM determines whether they must be performed together as an activity, or you can spend some of those actions during one turn and the rest during your next turn.Interact Action: https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=80
Manipulate Trait: https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=104[MANIPULATE]
You use your hand or hands to manipulate an object or the terrain. You can grab an unattended or stored object, open a door, or produce some similar effect. You might have to attempt a skill check to determine if your Interact action was successful.
You must physically manipulate an item or make gestures to use an action with this trait. Creatures without a suitable appendage can’t perform actions with this trait. Manipulate actions often trigger reactions.Relevant text on Weapons and hand notation (Specifically +1):https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=230
A few items, such as a longbow, list 1+ for its Hands entry. You can hold a weapon with a 1+ entry in one hand, but the process of shooting it requires using a second to retrieve
(EDIT by me: ALSO KNOWN AS DRAWING AN ITEM, WHICH IS ONE OF THE MAIN TYPES OF INTERACT ACTIONS), nock, and loose an arrow. This means you can do things with your free hand while holding the bow without changing your grip, but the other hand must be free when you shoot. To properly wield a 1+ weapon, you must hold it in one hand and also have a hand free.
This last one is just to cover all basis, but is ultimately unnecessary because reload already calls out an Interact Action (which has the manipulate trait) and lays the matter to rest to anyone actually reading and understanding the rules.
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Things like this is why I'm pleased starfinder just reduced what triggers attacks of opportunity to 'Casting spells, ranged attacks, and moving from threat range' rather than a very common trait.
I am not a Starfinder player, but I can appreciate what they did there. It is idiotic in PF2E that both drawing a weapon and gripping a weapon are Interact actions with the manipulate trait that provoke AoO.
I am glad I am not beholden to the designers and can use my own common sense to interpret their language and adjudicate corner cases to avoid lengthy arguments like this one.
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I am glad I am not beholden to the designers and can use my own common sense to interpret their language and adjudicate corner cases to avoid lengthy arguments like this one.
Which is what still baffles me. The situation is very clear and there's really no room for interpretation and, worse of all, it's not really a big deal at all! Rare will be the occasion when a bow character will be cornered enough to have to attack and risking provoking an AoO. AoO itself is limited these days. I don't see why there's so much fuss. It triggers reactions and requires a flat check (in a situation when you couldn't even use bows before in the previous edition. Relevant text from PF1e: " In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform."). Having the chance to use a bow with a fairly low failure possibility seems to me to be a boon rather than an issue.
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Best to let them have their opinion and leave them be, I did the due diligence of explaining exactly how the flow of rules works here, linked the various SRD pages, and even pointed out how the Manipulate Trait directly links to the Interact Page which is explicitly part of any and all actions that involve Reloading.
They either didn't bother reading it through it or the simplified breakdown I and others posted here, they're willfully ignorant because they don't like it, are just really struggling to connect the dots despite being shown step by step where and how the rules interact, or they are trolling. Regardless of the case, we did what we came here to do and help answer the OPs question so I don't think back-n-forth bickering about how it should be "interpreted" (There is no interpretation to be had, the rules are mostly clear with the sole exception that the Interact rules don't cite the word "trait" when talking about Manipulate) is kind of pointless.
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So if dealing with Grabbed, why should someone who uses Shuriken not have to make a flat check to draw the weapon, while someone who uses Darts does? I understand the action economy savings of the weapon, but why do those using Shuriken get to ignore the physical aspect of drawing their weapon?
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I've been following this whole thing, and I think any reasonable person would interpret that a ranged attack is 1 Strike, and Reload 0 means 1 Interact action folded into the strike, so 2 things in 1 action. In this case Reload 0 reads as no ADDITIONAL actions to reload, so that a ranged attack takes up as much time as a melee attack: 1 action.
If anyone spends the time to think about it, the ammo doesn't magically appear nocked and loaded; you have to use your hand and physically move the arrow from the quiver to the bow. That sounds like manipulation to me, and that makes sense. For me, that enough to close this case and put it to bed.
However, the reload section (pg 279) says: This entry indicates how many Interact actions it takes to reload such weapons. This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action. (bolded mine) Again, I think any reasonable person would read that as ZERO Interact actions, as in NONE; not an Interact action of null quantity (Interact 0). This sounds like an attack with a Reload 0 weapon is just a Strike action, the same as any other ranged weapon; they may have to use interact actions to reload, but the attack is still 1 action.
Attack of Opportunity (pg 473) lists these as triggers: A creature within your reach uses a manipulate action or a move action, makes a ranged attack, or leaves a square during a move action it’s using. (bolded mine again) It sounds superfluous that a ranged attack would proc an opportunity attack twice, once for reloading with an Interact 0 and again for the ranged attack. I know not all ranged weapons have Reload 0, but it still sounds weird.
I don't agree with this "reading the rules in a vacuum" but I can see where people are coming from at least.
This same logic would mean that if my move was somehow reduced to 0, and I perform a Move action of 0 feet, effectively meaning I didn't move at all, then someone could react with an opportunity attack even though I didn't move anywhere in space. That just sounds weird.
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I don't agree with this "reading the rules in a vacuum" but I can see where people are coming from at least.
This same logic would mean that if my move was somehow reduced to 0, and I perform a Move action of 0 feet, effectively meaning I didn't move at all, then someone could react with an opportunity attack even though I didn't move anywhere in space. That just sounds weird.
This already happens in the game, when one uses a Fly action to Hover in Place. You move 0 feet, yet it triggers reactions because it has the Move trait, exactly like Reload 0, which specifically calls out an interact action (even if it doesn't have a mechanical action cost, the character is still narratively making the motion to draw and nock the arrow, which is what provoking reactions is representing).
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Reload: While all weapons need some amount of time to get into position, many ranged weapons also need to be loaded and reloaded. This entry indicates how many Interact actions it takes to reload such weapons. This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action...
Reload 0 equals 0 Interact actions. 0 Interact actions equals 0 actions to have the Manipulate trait with Reload 0.
Shooting a bow requires a Reload, but the Reload has no Interact actions. Therefore, a ranged strike with a Reload 0 weapon does not trigger Attack of Opportunity against the Reload.
This already happens in the game, when one uses a Fly action to Hover in Place. You move 0 feet, yet it triggers reactions because it has the Move trait, exactly like Reload 0, which specifically calls out an interact action (even if it doesn't have a mechanical action cost, the character is still narratively making the motion to draw and nock the arrow, which is what provoking reactions is representing).
In the gestalt sense, this totally makes sense; the flying creature is actively trying to fight gravity. Even without looking at the rules, I would probably handle it this way. I might even think this is the case if everyone was treading water in a lake/combat scenario.
"Rules in a Vacuum" sense, this particular example has the benefit of being an entry with the Move trait.
The hypothetical, transitive situation I was making was someone on the ground announcing a Move action, but being unable to "move" (Move 0), then getting smacked with an opportunity attack. In an actual scenario, if I were unable to move and announced a Move action, I don't think anyone here would prohibit me from rewinding and declaring another action because I made some sort of mistake.
I think if "This can be 0" was reworded, then a lot of this thread could have been avoided. Something like, "If this entry says Reload 0, then the Interact action happens with the Strike action to attack; they are not two, separate actions." or something similar.
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While all weapons need some amount of time to get into position, many ranged weapons also need to be loaded and reloaded. This entry indicates how many Interact actions it takes to reload such weapons. This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action.
0 Interact actions doesn't mean "oh actually there's an Interact in the Strike". It doesn't say that there's an Interact in the Strike.
I read it as "drawing these things is so little effort, it doesn't take any Interact".
And not every time you handle an object with your hands is an Interact. If I stab someone with my rapier that's not an Interact either.
I can't think of any other example where one of the Basic Actions has a subordinate action; the basic actions are building blocks for more complex activities but I think it's a big leap to infer that one of them has its own subordinate actions.
Except it does. Drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action. It makes zero sense that you can draw ammunition without manipulating it.While all weapons need some amount of time to get into position, many ranged weapons also need to be loaded and reloaded. This entry indicates how many Interact actions it takes to reload such weapons. This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action.0 Interact actions doesn't mean "oh actually there's an Interact in the Strike". It doesn't say that there's an Interact in the Strike.
Must be pure mental energy that levitates it to the bow... :P
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I think it's a big leap to infer that one of them has its own subordinate actions.
It would be! But nobody's inferring, the rules say you reload as part of making the strike. Pretty clearly.
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Reload: While all weapons need some amount of time to get into position, many ranged weapons also need to be loaded and reloaded. This entry indicates how many Interact actions it takes to reload such weapons. This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action...Reload 0 equals 0 Interact actions. 0 Interact actions equals 0 actions to have the Manipulate trait with Reload 0.
Shooting a bow requires a Reload, but the Reload has no Interact actions. Therefore, a ranged strike with a Reload 0 weapon does not trigger Attack of Opportunity against the Reload.
Ok. Forget bows. Lets use another weapon that has Reload 0. The Shurikens.
What you do when you want to attack with a Shuriken that isn't already in your hand? Well, you draw it, of course, than shoot it at the enemy. Ok. Pretty straight forward. Now, let's think about Darts, they also are not in your hands, so in order to hit that bullseye you need to draw the dart and throw it.
So. What happened here? What I described was wrong? Undeniably not. This is what happens if you want to use both weapons. Now, what is the difference between these two scenarios?
The difference lies in the artificial construct Paizo created to express the rules of the game. Darts receive "-" their reload entry which means that you draw the item and this act is an interact action and that has the manipulate trait (triggers reactions and requires flat checks), then you spend another, let's say for the purposes of this discussion, a "mechanical" action. On the other hand we have the Shurikens, with "Reload 0", in which drawing the item is given for free as part of the strike, this means that it's similar to Sudden Charge, Tandem Actions, Flying Kick, Sudden Leap and many other actions in the game that have actions for free together with other types of actions, however these actions do not lose their properties when performed inside these other actions.
While there are no extra cost in "mechanical" actions like Reload 1 and above, the thing is that it's happening along with the strike. The same way that depending on the situation a spell would trigger two reactions against certain enemies that could target concentrate actions and manipulate actions (Level 10 Fighters with disruptive instance, for example).
As I said several times, forget the number, just focus on the Reload part.
Reload 0 would be irrelevant if its properties wouldn't apply, if the point was make the weapon work like melee weapons but from range, then it wouldn't need to engage with the reload, interact and manipulate rules at all.
I think it's a big leap to infer that one of them has its own subordinate actions.It would be! But nobody's inferring, the rules say you reload as part of making the strike. Pretty clearly.See what I mean, not quite sure it could be much more clear.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm with you... What is the "+" for in a 1+ handed weapon is it's NOT meant to represent the need to interact with the ammo to fire the weapon? It doesn't matter if you say it uses an Interact for a reload or an Interact to draw the ammo: either way it's an Interact inside the Strike.
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I've been following this whole thing, and I think any reasonable person would interpret that a ranged attack is 1 Strike, and Reload 0 means 1 Interact action folded into the strike, so 2 things in 1 action. In this case Reload 0 reads as no ADDITIONAL actions to reload, so that a ranged attack takes up as much time as a melee attack: 1 action.
If anyone spends the time to think about it, the ammo doesn't magically appear nocked and loaded; you have to use your hand and physically move the arrow from the quiver to the bow. That sounds like manipulation to me, and that makes sense. For me, that enough to close this case and put it to bed.
However, the reload section (pg 279) says: This entry indicates how many Interact actions it takes to reload such weapons. This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action. (bolded mine) Again, I think any reasonable person would read that as ZERO Interact actions, as in NONE; not an Interact action of null quantity (Interact 0). This sounds like an attack with a Reload 0 weapon is just a Strike action, the same as any other ranged weapon; they may have to use interact actions to reload, but the attack is still 1 action.
Attack of Opportunity (pg 473) lists these as triggers: A creature within your reach uses a manipulate action or a move action, makes a ranged attack, or leaves a square during a move action it’s using. (bolded mine again) It sounds superfluous that a ranged attack would proc an opportunity attack twice, once for reloading with an Interact 0 and again for the ranged attack. I know not all ranged weapons have Reload 0, but it still sounds weird.
I don't agree with this "reading the rules in a vacuum" but I can see where people are coming from at least.
This same logic would mean that if my move was somehow reduced to 0, and I perform a Move action of 0 feet, effectively meaning I didn't move at all, then someone could react with an opportunity attack even though I didn't move...
You are saying that 0 actions being taken means 0 opportunities to be available, even though, in the very same sentence you bolded, "drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action." So, it's not just a "1 action 1 strike" combo, because drawing the ammunition, simulated with Reload 0, is instead added to the action to Strike. That doesn't mean the activity of reloading the weapon is non-existent, it merely means it costs no extra actions to do so, unlike other Reload X weapons, where you must spend actions to reload prior to shooting. There are further rules that actually physically describe how you are interacting to load the Reload 0 weapon, that I have quoted above. So you are either A. Reloading the weapon, which has manipulate based on needing to physically interact with the quiver/ammunition, or B. Not reloading the weapon, which means it fires...nothing. Because there is no ammunition loaded to fire with. This isn't Schrodinger's Archer, where you can be both loading and not loading the weapon, suggesting that it is falls under the Too Good to be True clause.
As for the AoO "double triggering," I would disagree since either listed exception would trigger it regardless, and because they are the same action, they can't take the activity twice just because it contains multiple options that fulfill their trigger, since again, it's all in the same activity. As an example, if I am a Spellcaster that is using Ray of Frost, they would not be able to attack Twice for the Somatic activity and the Ranged Spell Attack that I am making, because it's all associated with the same activity. Even with additional reactions like Combat Reflexes, you can't trigger the events twice, otherwise people with Combat Reflexes automatically gain 2 Attack of Opportunities for each trigger, which is obviously not intended.
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It is clear that the intent is that drawing an arrow/shuriken and firing/throwing it is all one fluid motion. What is not clear is why RAW there is no penalty for drawing the ammunition to fire it for these weapons. Here are my thoughts:
It is not a Free Action to Interact. If it were, it would have to be prior to the Strike. This means it would provoke twice, once from the Interact, and once from the Strike, and I think we all agree that's not the intent. It also means if someone disrupts the Interact action, you can just do it again, and the Strike action is perfectly fine.
It's not an Interact Subordinate Action. This would make Strike into an activity, akin to Quick Draw. You draw the ammunition, and then Strike with it. This too makes you provoke twice, but at least disrupting the Interact would cause you to lose the whole action. It would also likely break Activities that ask you to Strike, as that is calling for the Strike basic action, and I'm not sure if you can actually have an Activity with the same name as a basic action.
It doesn't affect all Reload 0 weapons. Bows and Shuriken require you to draw something to reload. Air Repeaters and Repeating Crossbows have built in mechanisms to reload them, that require no action on the user. These examples work as intended. So, there needs to be a way to clarify what happens with weapons that are quick enough to Reload with 0 actions, that also require you to draw the ammo each time you strike.
This comes to my suggested solution: Update reload rules to clarify that if you have a reload 0 weapon that requires you to draw the ammunition, the Strike gains the Manipulate trait. This would work exactly the same way as Bombs do now. It would not provoke twice, since it's only a single action, but it would allow your strike to be disrupted (projectile knocked out of your hand for example). By specifying only weapons that require you to draw ammo, it excludes the repeating weapons.
I feel this is the best way to run it, and I hope Paizo can clarify this in the future.
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Except it does. Drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action. It makes zero sense that you can draw ammunition without manipulating it.... It doesn't say that there's an Interact in the Strike.
Except it doesn't.
Reload: "While all weapons need some amount of time to get into position, many ranged weapons also need to be loaded and reloaded. This entry indicates how many Interact actions it takes to reload such weapons. This can be 0..." (emphasis mine)
Reload 0 = 0 Interact actions. Zero is none.