The rules for construct innovation say that many abilities can come from your construct rather than yourself.
The way it is worded in several specific abilities, this does not seem to preclude the inventor using those abilities.
Therefore it seems possible for the inventor to activate megavolt for two actions, then spend their third action to get the construct two actions which it then uses to use megavolt again.
Am I missing anything?
My gut instinct is that RAI it should be either/or. Either you can take the ability and use the actions, or the construct can take the ability and use the actions. But not both.
I haven't actually pulled up the wording at this exact moment yet though.
To take an unstable action, you must be using your innovation (for example, wearing an armor innovation or wielding a weapon innovation). If you have a minion innovation, some unstable actions are taken by the minion instead of you. In these cases, only the minion can take that action, and the minion needs to have been Commanded that turn to take the action. If you critically fail the flat check, the minion takes the damage instead of you.
Special If your innovation is a minion, it can take this action rather than you.
Here's the relevant general text and megavolt's rules.
Am I missing anything?
Nope, it looks like it works fine.
Thank you Squiggit. That's kind of what I was expecting. It's easy to miss things like that on AoN due to the way the site splits things up.
Still, it seems to contradict the more specific wording of the individual abilities that almost always use the word "can" in regards to the construct with absolutely no exclusionary language involving the inventor.
Last I heard, specific trumps general, no?
Thank you Squiggit. That's kind of what I was expecting. It's easy to miss things like that on AoN due to the way the site splits things up.
Still, it seems to contradict the more specific wording of the individual abilities that almost always use the word "can" in regards to the construct with absolutely no exclusionary language involving the inventor.
Last I heard, specific trumps general, no?
Yes, it can use Megavolt. But the important thing is that you can't use it if you have the minion innovation.
If you activate the minion's megavolt, have you really used it though? After all, it didn't come from you. :P
Yes, it can use Megavolt. But the important thing is that you can't use it if you have the minion innovation.Thank you Squiggit. That's kind of what I was expecting. It's easy to miss things like that on AoN due to the way the site splits things up.
Still, it seems to contradict the more specific wording of the individual abilities that almost always use the word "can" in regards to the construct with absolutely no exclusionary language involving the inventor.
Last I heard, specific trumps general, no?
There's nothing preventing you from using it.
I think the difficulty is the way these the pieces of rules interact. The use of "can" in abilities like megavolt or deep freeze suggest that you get to choose, while the general rule references that unstable actions that are taken by the minion can't be taken by you separately.
As Ravingdork points out, it could be an issue of specific vs general... but on the other hand, there is no unstable action that "must" be performed by the minion. Searing Restoration, Megavolt, Deep Freeze, and Explosive Leap all say "can." This renders the general rule kind of vestigial if we take "can" as a specific exception, because then they all have the specific exception.
On the other, other hand, this wouldn't be the first time Paizo printed rules that don't do anything on release and are just future proofing. It could just as easily be a "four common tattoos of second level or lower" thing going on here. So simply saying there's no instance in which the rule would be applied doesn't necessary mean anything.
Another oddity is that the general rule is also specific to Unstable actions, which means if applied here you could use the normal version of Megavolt but would have to Command your minion to use the Unstable version. Also worth noting this whole gimmick requires you to pass a DC17 flat check or have a high level feat.
... Anyways that's my analysis I guess take from it what you will.
In my opinion, the sentences "If you have a minion innovation, some unstable actions are taken by the minion instead of you. In these cases, only the minion can take that action, and the minion needs to have been Commanded that turn to take the action." are there to cover the case where an Unstable action can only be taken by the Minion (to avoid someone trying to cheese by using some pure Minion actions with the Inventor).
But that's not the case of Megavolt. If the "can" is meant to mean "must", then this is a clear case of blurry rules. Also, it's not what the rules say right now, and without errata, we can double Megavolt.
Which is quite powerful. At the same time, Minion Innovation gets far weaker after level 9, so I tend to think it's not overpowered.
Thank you for you analysis! It very much mirrors my own thoughts on the matter.
The word "rather" usually refers to an either/or not both situation. So it reads like 'You can initiate the megavolt or your minion can initiate megavolt.' However, since you both have two actions remaining after commanding the minion and there's no specified limit on the number of uses per turn, it seems it could work that way. Plus, there's nothing stopping you from activating megavolt and it from activating megapunch or any other two 2-action combo.
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There's nothing preventing you from using it.Yes, it can use Megavolt. But the important thing is that you can't use it if you have the minion innovation.Thank you Squiggit. That's kind of what I was expecting. It's easy to miss things like that on AoN due to the way the site splits things up.
Still, it seems to contradict the more specific wording of the individual abilities that almost always use the word "can" in regards to the construct with absolutely no exclusionary language involving the inventor.
Last I heard, specific trumps general, no?
But how are you using it? These abilities originate from the Innovation, and that's the minion in this case. So where would it come from if you use the ability rather than the minion?
It would still come from the minion, because that's where the effect says it's generated from. Similar to explode (which completely lacks the 'your innovation can use this' clause).
Pulling up the rules in question, I am assuming that we are looking at the Special line in several of the feats like Explosive Leap, Searing Restoration and such.
Special If your innovation is a minion, it can take this action rather than you.
I am seeing the 'can' as meaning that under certain circumstances that it is possible that the minion innovation is taking the actions.
The part that I am looking at in reference to this thread is actually the 'rather than you'. I definitely look at that and take that to mean RAI that only one of the two of you is able to use the action.
If somehow you end up with two innovations - one a minion and one that you carry around (not sure if that is actually possible or not) - then you would need to choose when you take the feat which of the two innovations is getting the upgrade. If the minion gets it, then it is the minion that can take the action to use it. If the carried innovation gets it, then the Inventor is the one using the actions.
But no, I don't think I would allow running the game with the minion innovation using Megavolt and then the Inventor standing next to it and activating Megavolt again externally. If the feat became an upgrade to the minion innovation, then only the minion can activate it.
But I recognize that this is only my RAI ruling on it. The RAW does indeed leave the door open to alternate interpretations that would allow such things.
That's fair, though if that's the intent it makes me wonder why they would use such open ended language in the description of some of these abilities.
I don't really agree with the "you have to pick when you take the feat" notion either way, there's nothing that really suggests anything like that in the rules.
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Megavolt twice isn't really any better than, say, megavolt and electric arc anyways.
Megavolt twice is a lot of damage against multiple targets if you pull off a double unstable Version. Even the stable version deals pretty good damage if you cast it twice and hit like 3-4 enemies thanks to the Gigavolt upgrade. And that's perfectly spammable. I wouldn't call it overpowered by any means but it is a powerful ability.
As for the wording, I read "rather than you" as "instead of you". So your Minion "can" use the ability, just like a Fighter with the right feat "can" use Power Attack. The feat enables your minion. Nowhere does it say it you can use it as well.
The Unstable trait even says these abilities are an either/or deal:
If you have a minion innovation, some unstable actions are taken by the minion instead of you. In these cases, only the minion can take that action, and the minion needs to have been Commanded that turn to take the action
(I'll just ignore the technicality of whether or not a non-unstable Megavolt counts as an Unstable action.)
The wording could absolutely be clearer, mind you, but it's not like the rules say anywhere that both you and your minion can use Unstable actions.
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The wording could absolutely be clearer, mind you, but it's not like the rules say anywhere that both you and your minion can use Unstable actions.
Of course the Inventor can use Unstable actions, a lot of them have to be used by the Inventor and can't be used by the Minion. So the Inventor can, the Minion can, and nothing says one of them can't, hence the double Megavolt.
And the wording is extremely clear: "If your innovation is a minion, it can take this action rather than you."There are tons of ways to write this sentence to indicate that only the Construct can use it: "If your innovation is a minion, it must take this action rather than you." or "If your innovation is a minion, it takes this action rather than you." or "If your innovation is a minion, it can take this action but not you.", and so on.
RAW is clear, both you and your Minion can use Megavolt. Now, it may be a mistake, but then it's errata territory, not rules discussion one.
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The wording could absolutely be clearer, mind you, but it's not like the rules say anywhere that both you and your minion can use Unstable actions.Of course the Inventor can use Unstable actions, a lot of them have to be used by the Inventor and can't be used by the Minion.
I meant nothing says thay can use the same Unstable action.
The Unstable trait still reads if an Unstable action is taken by the Minion, it uses it instead of the inventor.
Nothing in the sentence "If your innovation is a minion, it can take this action rather than you." negates that in any way.
There's also currently no unstable action that uses another language when it comes to the minion using it, as far as I can see. So what's the point of mentioning the limitation in the unstable trait if not a single ability is affected by it? Seems a bit too wordy just for future proofing.
Ah well, I don't think this discusson is going anywhere. We read the same texts and come to different conclusions. I doubt that's gonna change. I also doubt we'll ever get that clarified by paizo, so it's down to "Ask your GM and hope your not playing PFS." Again.
There's also currently no unstable action that uses another language when it comes to the minion using it, as far as I can see. So what's the point of mentioning the limitation in the unstable trait if not a single ability is affected by it? Seems a bit too wordy just for future proofing.
That's what I mean: RAW is clear, but there's a hint that there may be a mistake somewhere (either this sentence in Unstable that has to be removed or the line in Megavolt and a lot of other actions that has to be rewritten). That's for an errata, as there's no ambiguity in current RAW.
Now I'm confused. Did I completely missread your point in all previous posts? From my understanding, this is what happened:
1. We both read the RAW.
2. You come to the conclusion that the Inventor can use Megavolt.
3. I come to the conclusion that the Inventor can't use Megavolt.
Did I miss something? How is that "no ambiguity in current RAW"?
I'm not trying to argue. Just trying to make sure no weird language barrier thingy happened.
Both the above are restrictive wording.
Can is not restrictive. If I can do something instead of you it doesn't mean that you suddenly can't. "I can drive your car instead of you" doesn't mean that you can't drive your car but that both of us can drive it.
So the wording is not restrictive, it's authorizing the Minion to use an action that otherwise you'd be the only one to take. Nothing states you lose this ability.
Now I'm confused. Did I completely missread your point in all previous posts? From my understanding, this is what happened:
1. We both read the RAW.
2. You come to the conclusion that the Inventor can use Megavolt.
3. I come to the conclusion that the Inventor can't use Megavolt.Did I miss something? How is that "no ambiguity in current RAW"?
I'm not trying to argue. Just trying to make sure no weird language barrier thingy happened.
I think I've understood your point of view, now.
It's "the action" that isn't clear.You consider that "the action" refers to the whole feat when I consider it refers to the action of using the feat.
And that's why we don't understand ourselves, because the meaning seems natural so we don't understand what the other doesn't understand.
My meaning would be covered by a case like if you have to go to retrieve a mail from the postal service, they can say: "If you have a child, they can retrieve it instead of you."
As in: Both of us can do it. And not: Because you have a child, they have to do it instead of you.
So, after reading it like twenty times, I now agree with you. The lines under Unstable makes me think your reading is the good one. But they would have made it ten times clearer by removing these lines in Unstable and just be clear inside Megavolt and such feats with a sentence leaving no doubt that only your innovation can take the action.
It's further problematic as there are actions (like Explode) that only you can take and still affect your Minion. In my opinion, there's a design flaw here, there's no reason for Explode to be used by the Inventor and Megavolt by the Minion. As a side note, you can Explode+Megavolt in the same round, so the design "issue" of using 2 2-action activities in the same round is still there.
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It's further problematic as there are actions (like Explode) that only you can take and still affect your Minion. In my opinion, there's a design flaw here, there's no reason for Explode to be used by the Inventor and Megavolt by the Minion. As a side note, you can Explode+Megavolt in the same round, so the design "issue" of using 2 2-action activities in the same round is still there.
Wait, this isn't intended? I was exploding and zapping until now with the construct. Seems like the best use of the actions at higher levels.
It's further problematic as there are actions (like Explode) that only you can take and still affect your Minion. In my opinion, there's a design flaw here, there's no reason for Explode to be used by the Inventor and Megavolt by the Minion. As a side note, you can Explode+Megavolt in the same round, so the design "issue" of using 2 2-action activities in the same round is still there.Wait, this isn't intended? I was exploding and zapping until now with the construct. Seems like the best use of the actions at higher levels.
This is definitely allowed by the rules, but I know that developers don't want to allow 2 2-action activities in the same round (it's the reason why the Summoner can't do it with Act Together). So I don't know if it's a mistake or if they thought about it.
I think it's probably fine. Compared to the theoretical double Megavolt
- it can't be spammed (unless you're lucky with your flat checks)
- the damage is significantly lower than what two unstable Megavolt
- since Explode is an emanation it requires a turn to get the Minion in the right position, whereas aiming Megavolt is almost trivial to aim once you get Gigavolt.