Favorite Campaign Settings

[Saedar]

keftiu wrote:

Saedar wrote:

I like the meta-genre settings of "Apocalypse World" and "Monster of the Week". They aren't a specific place but they all feel like a distillation of several places with some genre-specific coats of paint.

Have you read Dream Askew? It’s sort of a successor to Apocalypse World - being a psychic maelstrom-wracked world of punk weirdos who often wear fetish gear - but is diceless and GMless, and narrows its focus to building a queer community together and telling the stories of its people. It’s really, really amazing.

I haven't, but Avery is one of my favorite designers! Monsterhearts is easily one of my favorite games of all time.

Monsterhearts Anecdote:

Context: I was at a small (<100 people) convention that is mostly people who are friends with this one particular dude. My partner and I got invited as friends-of-a-friend. Most of the people here are 40-50 y/o D&D players with families.

I was sitting around chatting with the wife of the guy who ran the whole thing. It was between games and she had mostly kept to herself for the weekend. Asked her if she had played anything fun. She claims she doesn't like gaming and that her husband/their friends had been trying to get her to game for decades.

I'm pretty firmly of the opinion that there is a game out there for everyone. It may not be D&D. May not be Pathfinder. There is definitely something. So, I asked her about what she was interested in from fiction. She was really into romantic horror. So, I convinced her to let me throw together a Monsterhearts game for her. Collected some people and played. She had an absolute blast! She took the reins and went wild. Whole thing ended in a drug-fueled vampire blood orgy.

Everyone had been trying for decades to get her to play D&D. No one had tried to find a game that fit her.

Easily a top 3 gaming moment of my life.

[Mark Stratton]

Krynn/Dragonlance is my favorite campaign setting, by far. I initially hated Forgotten Realms, but it really grew on me.

And I never thought another game world would grab me the ways those two did, but I do really like Golarion.

[Freehold DM]

keftiu wrote:

*dark sun love*

STAHP IT

[John Woodford]

With a disclaimer that I've never played in it, so this is just from reading the rules: the setting for Nobilis 2e. Incredibly rich and bizarre; it's very much a niche game, though.

Golarion is the only published setting I've done much with, as the majority of my gaming pre-PF was in homebrews. Nowadays I don't have the time to develop and maintain a campaign world, though.

[keftiu]

John Woodford wrote:

With a disclaimer that I've never played in it, so this is just from reading the rules: the setting for Nobilis 2e. Incredibly rich and bizarre; it's very much a niche game, though.

Did you check out Glitch? I’ve found jennagames to be pretty incomprehensible, but my friends who are fans loved it.

[captain yesterday]

I'm also a huge fan of the Mutants and Masterminds setting.

[Berhagen]

Anyone played Vaesen? The premise, description and art do appeal to me, but have not yet played it…

[Ian G]

Let's see...

I'm a MASSIVE Eberron junkie. Being Indiana Jones in a land full of giants and impossibly vast ruins? Fighting a totalitarian mind-control cult with an empire that's secretly run by nightmare spirits? Badass spy stories with sapient robots? Orc druid MIBs? Bloodthirsty warmonger elves? Dude, I am HERE for that stuff. It's so gonzo and creative and I like coming up with cool stuff to do with the Mournland. The sourcebooks and published adventures kick serious butt too.

I've never really played Dark Sun but the idea doesn't sound bad at all. It would probably get annoying to do survival-type checks all the time though.

Forgotten Realms is a bit of a kitchen sink but I absolutely LOVE the 3.5 sourcebooks for it (Unapproachable East's "orcs are respected members of society and have discovered that Good Feels Good" and Lost Empires of Faerun's treasure-trove of evil to smash and ancient stuff to explore are personal faves) and I like the constant undercurrent of "racists destroy their own empires in futile purity rants" (keep in mind, TWO straight elf civilizations were destroyed by their racism). Wasn't a huge fan of the Spellplague, because I actually LIKED Maztica (yes, it's very much just "somebody in the '90s read about the Aztecs and Maya, knew that portraying the conquistadors as good would not go over well with anyone, and hacked together a fantasy version of Nahuatl religion", but having the gods of civilizational necessities be huge toolbags and having the conquistadors be complete idiots out of their depths who inadvertently contribute to an apocalypse were creative decisions I really liked).

Also the Spellplague destroyed a lot of the smaller and weirder bits of the Realms to force 4e nonsense into it, it felt more like a Final Fantasy setting than Forgotten Realms. I've tried a bit of 5e's version of the setting--I like the general idea of some of the campaign adventures, though I feel the execution has been meh at best.

Didn't like 4e's subtle worldbuilding much. Doesn't help that the published adventure series is...VERY mediocre.

Dragonlance is IMO overrated, and not just because the first published adventure is the author, who'd recently got back from being a Mormon missionary when he wrote it, lowkey trying to convert the game table. I'm not a huge fan of the setting's attempt at cosmic balance themes, and while I appreciate the attempt at removing overtly Tolkein-based monsters, it doesn't WORK when you're playing something with structurally similar elements.

The 3e campaign sourcebook is pretty solid, though.

Golarion is pretty fun, I prefer Eberron as a concept and in some elements of the worldbuilding (there isn't a bit of Eberron that feels pointless or unnecessary, whereas I still question why Druma *exists* since there just isn't much there conceptually to drive an interesting story IMO) but Golarion has some really awesome sourcebooks and adventures pulling for it. I've DMed Hell's Rebels and adapted some other adventures for one-shots, and I've had a blast so far. Barzillai Thrune was a hoot to play and the core of Hell's Rebels's story was a massive amount of fun. Having read Wrath of the Righteous and played the CRPG, Anevia Tirabade is my precious friend and anyone who hurts her or her wifeykins is getting my dhampir paladin/Angel's HEAVENLY FIRE right to the face. If they're lucky.

Also I lowkey love little bits of worldbuilding like Arazni's "I spit on your graves--ALL of your graves, you worthless bastards!" attitude (which, justified, and I stan her for it), and the Shelyn/Desna/Sarenrae thing (my buddy and I reworked a 3.5 Forgotten Realms PRC to be basically a prestige class for their followers focused on promoting love, supporting queer people, being super romantic, and promulgating healthy relationship values).

Greyhawk gets special points from me for being the OG, but none of the sourcebooks I've had the opportunity to read have been particularly rich. There are IDEAS there that are good to jump off of, but it's still a pretty basic setting with not much meat that I've seen. However, you could definitely have a tremendous game in the former Great Kingdom, or fighting the LITERAL EVIL GOD who leads a country to attack the forces of Not Evil.

Never played or read much Spelljammer but what I have seen is hilarious.

Never played or read much of Mystara, or any of the other '80s-'90s settings that didn't make it to 3e or later.

For more indy and/or non-D&D-based settings--

Blue Rose hits my Tamora Pierce fan buttons so it automatically gets points for me. Also queer characters are encouraged and there's an explicitly queer-positive country in it so my tables will be happy.

Tried to read the d20 Kalamar sourcebook, never really got into it.

Farland has a cool concept but I never got much into it.

I stay away from Vampire: The Masquerade because I heard fash got control of it for a while.

Odyssey of the Dragonlords has a kickass setting and I want to play it sometime, even if it is for 5e.

Exandria is a favorite of a friend of mind and I'm starting to see the appeal.

[dirtypool]

Fash?

Not sure what that means?

[Rysky]

Fascists

[dirtypool]

I assumed, but the way internet slang works today I feel like I never know for sure.

Mark Rein-Hagan embraced that side of things back in the 90’s before he was let go from White Wolf the first time. (Black Dog era and in particular the Gypsy book.)

The modern White Wolf brushes with fascism, transphobia and homophobia were partially him - having been brought back by the new owners - partly some of the edge lords hired to write for V5 and of course good ole Zak S. who was associated with D&D 5e as well as Vampire

[keftiu]

dirtypool wrote:

I assumed, but the way internet slang works today I feel like I never know for sure.

Mark Rein-Hagan embraced that side of things back in the 90’s before he was let go from White Wolf the first time. (Black Dog era and in particular the Gypsy book.)

The modern White Wolf brushes with fascism, transphobia and homophobia were partially him - having been brought back by the new owners - partly some of the edge lords hired to write for V5 and of course good ole Zak S. who was associated with D&D 5e as well as Vampire

I lay the blame for most of the V5 trouble - including hiring Zak, who at this point is an accused abuser and rapist - at the feet of Martin Ericsson and the others in charge, who courted “edginess” at every possible turn right up until he got the company dissolved.

I maintain a boycott of WoD and Onyx Path stuff to this day over it, and the other instances of transphobia. It’s a shame; nWoD/CofD stuff was my first non-D&D love. I have a Wraith tattoo, and Promethean helped me figure out my gender in a big way. It’s a real shame that several of their developers have been outed as predators - paints a real unflattering picture of things.

I really miss liking it.

[Freehold DM]

John Woodford wrote:

With a disclaimer that I've never played in it, so this is just from reading the rules: the setting for Nobilis 2e. Incredibly rich and bizarre; it's very much a niche game, though.

NOBILIS

Now that's a name I haven't heard in a long time.

Excellent description too.

[Freehold DM]

keftiu wrote:

dirtypool wrote:

I assumed, but the way internet slang works today I feel like I never know for sure.

Mark Rein-Hagan embraced that side of things back in the 90’s before he was let go from White Wolf the first time. (Black Dog era and in particular the Gypsy book.)

The modern White Wolf brushes with fascism, transphobia and homophobia were partially him - having been brought back by the new owners - partly some of the edge lords hired to write for V5 and of course good ole Zak S. who was associated with D&D 5e as well as Vampire

I lay the blame for most of the V5 trouble - including hiring Zak, who at this point is an accused abuser and rapist - at the feet of Martin Ericsson and the others in charge, who courted “edginess” at every possible turn right up until he got the company dissolved.

I maintain a boycott of WoD and Onyx Path stuff to this day over it, and the other instances of transphobia. It’s a shame; nWoD/CofD stuff was my first non-D&D love. I have a Wraith tattoo, and Promethean helped me figure out my gender in a big way. It’s a real shame that several of their developers have been outed as predators - paints a real unflattering picture of things.

I really miss liking it.

I avoid V5 and W5 stuff as a result of those decisions. I stick with the 20 line, and focus on the world I personally made out of that. I also still want my Hunter 20, yes I am one of the 9 HTR fans you have heard of but never met.

The only thing I got from nWOD was Changeling, which blew my freaking mind, although I didn't care for the update even if it made magic easier. Heard good things about Promethean, it seems everyone I hold in high esteem has had good(and in this case, positive life altering) experiences with the game.

[dirtypool]

Threadjack discussion of publishing controversies, nothing to see here.:

I'm not sure I see the point in maintaining a boycott of Onyx Path over the actions of White Wolf prior to its dissolution.

I get not buying CoD products to not support anything that puts money in Martin Ericsson's pocket, but extending that boycott to include Onyx Path's wholly owned products is what I don't quite get.

Onyx Path has had its own problems certainly, but unlike White Wolf they have responded to them fairly transparently. When their employees were outed as predators, they were shown the door and entirely new creative teams were put on the book to rebuild material from the ground up. When charges of transphobia were leveled, the offending parties were let go and the company attempted to become an even more inclusive environment. When complaints about pay were brought to light, they restructured their pay practices and brought on new people to handle pay disbursement. When they were accused of blacklisting freelancers on the basis of race, gender identity and preference they hired an external HR company to conduct a review and shared the findings.

I'll take a company that at least tries to take corrective action over the mess that is WW/WoD any day of the week.

I'm only bringing it up because I've talked to a lot of people these last few months who similarly boycott OPP permanently who listed their criteria for remaining Paizo customers and in a lot of those cases OPP's actions in response to their controversies would have met that person's criteria.

I also think that in the whole Zak S affair, WoTC got off a lot cleaner than they should have.

[Ian G]

dirtypool wrote:

Fash?

Not sure what that means?

Fascists, the enemies of the proletariat.

From what I heard, the people in charge of VTM rewrote a lot of the lore to have white-supremacist undertones and put a sex abuser in charge of production. But it's been a while since I read the expose.

Oh, I forgot to add above--since Star Trek has an RPG (currently the 3rd or 4th iteration IIRC) it technically qualifies as an RPG setting, I think. I am a massive DS9 junkie, hate Enterprise and Discovery, Voyager is a disappointment, TNG gets really good, TOS has its high points, Lower Decks is hilarious after the first 3-4 episodes though I think the next-to-last episode of season 1 is far better than the last (tbf the same was true of DS9 and Voyager as well, so it's not like Trek doesn't have a record of the penultimate episode of season 1 being better than the ultimate), Picard is a mixed bag, not a fan of the current iteration of RPG books because I feel they're overpriced and style over substance. So I just write lots and lots of fanfic. And read lots of fanfic, a probably-unhealthy amount of it Bashir/Garak slow-burn romances.

[dirtypool]

White Supremacist undertones were added to the metaplot advancement covering the changeover from the 3rd edition pre-Gehenna world and the V5 modern world and some dog-whistles were added to Brujah color text. The Sex abuser wasn't in charge of production - he wrote some of the color text and a mobile "graphic novel." Additionally the real world persecution of the Chechen LGTBQ community was treated as a plot element in the Camarilla sourcebook.

As for Star Trek Adventures, it is the 4th fully fleshed out Star Trek RPG, it's the 6th if you count the two FASA combat tactics game, and if you're interested in DS9 specifically I would recommend the Alpha Quadrant source book and the DS9 PC bundle that stats out some of the characters from the show as well as providing some vehicle statblocks for Runabouts and The Defiant.

[keftiu]

dirtypool wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

OPP has plenty of its own problems; mistreatment of developers (Olivia Hill springs to mind), Rich Thomas screaming at backers upset over how many years late Wraith is, transphobia controversies of their own… please don’t assume I’m making my decisions blindly.

[dirtypool]

I wasn't assuming your decision was made blindly. I'm pointing out that the removal of Olivia Hill from Changeling was in no way as cut and dried a case as say the rooming situation at conventions was for Paizo. Olivia spoke very vocally against OPP while working for them, and there was both public and private friction that both sides have spoken about in the years since that happened. Rich Thomas "screaming at backers" is a take on that controversy that neglects the fact that Rich Thomas was screamed at first by backers over something that was in fact an approvals process problem with WW which he had no control over. Yeah he should have kept his cool, but it wasn't the first time he'd had to explain to an angry fan that OPP can finish the project when WW signs off on it.

I'm more curious about what merits a lifetime boycott. The issues that have occurred at OPP have been publicly addressed over the almost five years since the earliest one you mentioned, and yet you've written them off completely. You've been willing to give Paizo some leeway to try to do better over their current issues, so I was curious why you're more willing to give Paizo latitude while OPP was a zero tolerance cut off.

[keftiu]

OPP wasn’t a zero tolerance cut off, it was years of fumbling the bag that added up to me quitting, and several of my favorite games turning out to be written by sex pests. There’s nothing there for me to like anymore.

I’m also pretty skeeved out by their business model; monthly Kickstarters racking up a backlog in the triple digit numbers of books owed is not how things should be done.

[Freehold DM]

keftiu wrote:

OPP wasn’t a zero tolerance cut off, it was years of fumbling the bag that added up to me quitting, and several of my favorite games turning out to be written by sex pests. There’s nothing there for me to like anymore.

I’m also pretty skeeved out by their business model; monthly Kickstarters racking up a backlog in the triple digit numbers of books owed is not how things should be done.

How do you deal with that, Keftiu? I always wanted a WW tattoo, I probably would have gone Werewolf, though. Does it lead to some hard feelings?

[Tristan d'Ambrosius]

And just why is their business model not how things should be done? It cuts down on publication costs. There are no huge overages on print runs that sit around counselling for years and years. It gives purchasers a feeling of ownership and being part of the process. You can not participate in kickstarting and still buy a per or pod copy of a book via drive thru.

It cuts costs and risk.

[dirtypool]

keftiu wrote:

I’m also pretty skeeved out by their business model; monthly Kickstarters racking up a backlog in the triple digit numbers of books owed is not how things should be done.

I'm confused by this view. The Kickstarters are for core books, stretch goals fund additional products, and the people who want to pay the extra money to fund those additional products get them sooner than everyone else. Everyone else reaps the benefit of being able to buy them print on demand once they come out.

It doesn't rack up a backlog of books owed, it allows for the funding to generate more work to pay more freelancers to make more product.

[keftiu]

Freehold DM wrote:

How do you deal with that, Keftiu? I always wanted a WW tattoo, I probably would have gone Werewolf, though. Does it lead to some hard feelings?

I credit Wraith with genuinely saving my life as a teen. Whatever I may feel about the games and the folks behind them now, it meant that much to me at the time, and I owe it to my past self to honor that.

[keftiu]

dirtypool wrote:

keftiu wrote:

I’m also pretty skeeved out by their business model; monthly Kickstarters racking up a backlog in the triple digit numbers of books owed is not how things should be done.

I'm confused by this view. The Kickstarters are for core books, stretch goals fund additional products, and the people who want to pay the extra money to fund those additional products get them sooner than everyone else. Everyone else reaps the benefit of being able to buy them print on demand once they come out.

It doesn't rack up a backlog of books owed, it allows for the funding to generate more work to pay more freelancers to make more product.

The last time I looked at a Monday Meeting Notes, they had something like 89 books in development. I don’t think that’s a sustainable or healthy business model, and I’ve heard rumblings from folks that the company is forever one failed KS away from not having the money to keep the lights on.

Is my interrogation over now?

[Ian G]

dirtypool wrote:

White Supremacist undertones were added to the metaplot advancement covering the changeover from the 3rd edition pre-Gehenna world and the V5 modern world and some dog-whistles were added to Brujah color text. The Sex abuser wasn't in charge of production - he wrote some of the color text and a mobile "graphic novel." Additionally the real world persecution of the Chechen LGTBQ community was treated as a plot element in the Camarilla sourcebook.

As for Star Trek Adventures, it is the 4th fully fleshed out Star Trek RPG, it's the 6th if you count the two FASA combat tactics game, and if you're interested in DS9 specifically I would recommend the Alpha Quadrant source book and the DS9 PC bundle that stats out some of the characters from the show as well as providing some vehicle statblocks for Runabouts and The Defiant.

Ouch. Honestly you could do something with Kadyrov's genocide attempt, like, build a resistance against him and assassinate him so that someone less comically evil is put in charge by Moscow, maybe. But I don't think Zak S has the intellectual ability to handle that well.

I am vaguely familiar with the older Star Trek RPGs, I mostly know the d20 one which proved that d20 fundamentally does not work for Trek. Adventures I think is too complicated and I don't like the sourcebooks that I've seen very much.

What I want out of a Trek story is something like DS9's Rejoined mashed up with Homecoming/The Circle/The Siege or maybe a Wrath of Khan/First Contact esque thing mashed up with Past Tense. None of the published adventures I've seen have really approached that, and the focus of the game seems to be more on doing technobabble things.

[Tristan d'Ambrosius]

Ian G wrote:

.

But I don't think Zak S has the intellectual ability to handle that well.

Good thing he didn't have anything to do with it then, isn't it? If only the same could be said for Mark Rein-Hagen the creator of Vampire The Masquerade.

[dirtypool]

Again, Zak S had no leadership role in the content creation for the game.

Making fictional hay out of any real world oppression for a game is crass at best.

No previous edition of the licensed Star Trek RPG used the D20 system.

[Freehold DM]

keftiu wrote:

Freehold DM wrote:

How do you deal with that, Keftiu? I always wanted a WW tattoo, I probably would have gone Werewolf, though. Does it lead to some hard feelings?

I credit Wraith with genuinely saving my life as a teen. Whatever I may feel about the games and the folks behind them now, it meant that much to me at the time, and I owe it to my past self to honor that.

An old friend of mine has a similar story about Wraith. Wow. Powerful stuff.

[keftiu]

Freehold DM wrote:

keftiu wrote:

Freehold DM wrote:

How do you deal with that, Keftiu? I always wanted a WW tattoo, I probably would have gone Werewolf, though. Does it lead to some hard feelings?

I credit Wraith with genuinely saving my life as a teen. Whatever I may feel about the games and the folks behind them now, it meant that much to me at the time, and I owe it to my past self to honor that.

An old friend of mine has a similar story about Wraith. Wow. Powerful stuff.

“Your worst, most self-destructive impulses are ultimately still a part of you, and cannot be killed, only treated with understanding and self-love” was a pretty profound message for me as a teen. The game was basically just an elaborate metaphor for living with mental illness, especially suicidal depression, and managed to eke out some really genuine hope and care in the face of that.

Also, the WW1 historical setting book kicked ass.

[Ian G]

dirtypool wrote:

Making fictional hay out of any real world oppression for a game is crass at best.

No previous edition of the licensed Star Trek RPG used the D20 system.

I don't know, the Night Witches RPG is pretty cool and that's literally about fighting the Nazis as they try to commit genocide against the USSR. I like playing women dropping bombs on Nazis from biplanes and I don't find it crass, personally.

Prime Directive had a d20 edition, and it was either the Last Unicorn or Decipher game, I forget which, that used a system so like d20 I'd be genuinely surprised to be shown proof that it wasn't.

[dirtypool]

Fighting Nazi’s might be fun, including an actual despot who murders actual people as a cartoonish villain under the control of your Ventrue, or toppling a current real world strong man so you can take control of their country is quite dismissive of actual people’s actual plight.

Dropping bombs on Nazi’s might not feel crass to you as the person playing the game, but if you were playing it said game in 1938, how would it feel to the people in camps to know their life was someone’s escapist fantasy game?

Prime Directive was a great lesson in how to walk the line on copyright infringement without getting sued, but it ultimately was not an officially licensed product when it’s D20 derivation was released.

LUGTrek was a d6 system and Decipher’s Coda system used a 20 sided die but in no way resembled the D20 system.

[Freehold DM]

keftiu wrote:

Freehold DM wrote:

keftiu wrote:

Freehold DM wrote:

How do you deal with that, Keftiu? I always wanted a WW tattoo, I probably would have gone Werewolf, though. Does it lead to some hard feelings?

I credit Wraith with genuinely saving my life as a teen. Whatever I may feel about the games and the folks behind them now, it meant that much to me at the time, and I owe it to my past self to honor that.

An old friend of mine has a similar story about Wraith. Wow. Powerful stuff.

“Your worst, most self-destructive impulses are ultimately still a part of you, and cannot be killed, only treated with understanding and self-love” was a pretty profound message for me as a teen. The game was basically just an elaborate metaphor for living with mental illness, especially suicidal depression, and managed to eke out some really genuine hope and care in the face of that.

Also, the WW1 historical setting book kicked ass.

One of the first people to sit down with me and describe what his suicidal depression felt like. A massive indicator with respect to the direction my life would take. He loved the WWI book too but could not read it overlong, it took him to bad places.

[Ian G]

dirtypool wrote:

Fighting Nazi’s might be fun, including an actual despot who murders actual people as a cartoonish villain under the control of your Ventrue, or toppling a current real world strong man so you can take control of their country is quite dismissive of actual people’s actual plight.

Dropping bombs on Nazi’s might not feel crass to you as the person playing the game, but if you were playing it said game in 1938, how would it feel to the people in camps to know their life was someone’s escapist fantasy game?

If I were in a death camp (and I would be, as someone with disabilities I'm #3 on Hitler's kill list after the Jews and Romani, and as a staunch leftist I'd be #4 or #5 even if my useless body and brain worked right), I'd probably try to keep people's spirits up by cooking up a barebones story game about being Allied soldiers killing lots of Nazis.

Fantasy stories and games are not harmful by nature--I write a story where my mind is stuck in my country's Former Dear Leader's body to cope with the absolute misery and depression of living under his rule (e.g. when he banned trans people from the military I wrote a bit where my self-insert orders that transition procedures for government employees be paid for by the government), there's a laundry list of books and media (e.g. "Dreadnought" and its sequel, Candidate Who Lost To Former Dear Leader's recent self-insert novel, deity of your choice knows how many alternate-history novels about noble Allies beating the tar out of some rump Nazi remnant that decides to fight on, hell, even Star Trek was until the recent reboots basically an escapist fantasy of a future where people are decent to each other instead of pointlessly cruel) that are blatant escapism, and a GIGANTIC chunk of fan-fiction "fix fics" are just straight-up queer people coping with disappointment by media they had been hoping would be good to them.

I think that your disapproval of using real-world oppression in escapist fantasy is your personal opinion. In my experience, most people like escapist stories about people they view as cruel and oppressive being humiliated and/or killed in amusing and/or dramatic and/or poetic ways; for example, when I wrote a story where my escapist self-insert hero is kidnapped by a notorious dictator, who then goes on a full-on Bond villain rant complete with a literal white Persian cat that he tries to shoot after it claws him for petting it the wrong way too many times, before getting killed in a missile strike as my self-insert is rescued along with the cat by a comically heroic bodyguard character, I got a massively positive response and was told by multiple people that the entire piece had them in stitches. When I wrote about my self-insert urinating on the grave of Controversial Deceased Right-Wing Politician, I also got a massive positive response. Wrote a story about bigoted politicians being left in Antarctica by a superheroine as the catalyst for that superheroine having to go into hiding with her love interest in a romantic Canadian cabin where she could chop wood for her soon-to-be-girlfriend? Massive positive response and the person I gifted the fic to got really into a sequel I made where the superheroine took a bigoted politician who they don't like from their country (different country with different official language from my own) and left him on top of a mountain.

While I respect your opinion, I and in my experience many other people have a markedly different opinion, and I still like playing games about being a heroic resistance fighter killing lots of Nazis, because I don't like genocidal regimes and I enjoy the escapist fantasy of having the power to fight and destroy genocidal regimes, which as a citizen of Corrupt Ostensibly Democratic Country Where My Vote Doesn't Matter Because Even The Less Evil Major Political Party Is Comically Incompetent And Still Tacitly Supports And Funds Ethnic Cleansing In Another Country, I have zero power to do IRL.

[Tristan d'Ambrosius]

The bit in the V5 Camarilla Sourcebook that caused this sidestep was removed. So many people don't share what you and many others feel.

[Ian G]

Tristan d'Ambrosius wrote:

The bit in the V5 Camarilla Sourcebook that caused this sidestep was removed. So many people don't share what you and many others feel.

That's fair. That doesn't mean that "fight Ramzan Kadyrov to stop his oppression" is inherently a bad idea for an adventure in an RPG.

Apparently some people like Hell's Vengeance. I find it to be a repugnant Gestapo simulator and will never play or DM it except potentially with all players pre-established as double-agent saboteurs deliberately trying to fail every adventure without getting caught. Doesn't mean I'm going to go out and tell people who had a great time playing it that they shouldn't have played it or had a great time with it.

(I WILL say that to people who voluntarily play FATAL unironically, and in jest to those who play it ironically, but that's just because FATAL is unspeakable and the kind of person who can unironically enjoy FATAL is almost certainly a very bad person irl)

[dirtypool]

I understand alt history novels and I understand the appeal of playing the daring crusader fighting the real villain.

This was a depiction that the REAL WORLD EXECUTION of LGBTQ people in Chechnya was not in fact ordered by the Chechen despots but by Vampires in order to uphold the Masquerade.

"Wouldn't it be cool if the real world murder of people was actually being done on the order of our NPC" is straight up not cool. Using reality as grist for the mill of your fantasy story is one thing, when that reality is a growing body count - it becomes something else entirely.

The way that the controversy around it blew up at the time, and that it resulted in firings and the removal of the content - lots of people agreed that it was not cool. No matter how much your fanfic writing experiences might conflict with that reality. It's very easy to sit here with western cultural mores and say that because we experience democracy as a bloodsport that our experiences map to people living in real banana republics, but I think you'll find that's simply untrue.

[Ian G]

dirtypool wrote:

I understand alt history novels and I understand the appeal of playing the daring crusader fighting the real villain.

This was a depiction that the REAL WORLD EXECUTION of LGBTQ people in Chechnya was not in fact ordered by the Chechen despots but by Vampires in order to uphold the Masquerade.

"Wouldn't it be cool if the real world murder of people was actually being done on the order of our NPC" is straight up not cool. Using reality as grist for the mill of your fantasy story is one thing, when that reality is a growing body count - it becomes something else entirely.

The way that the controversy around it blew up at the time, and that it resulted in firings and the removal of the content - lots of people agreed that it was not cool. No matter how much your fanfic writing experiences might conflict with that reality. It's very easy to sit here with western cultural mores and say that because we experience democracy as a bloodsport that our experiences map to people living in real banana republics, but I think you'll find that's simply untrue.

OK, well, that changes the entire argument? I thought that you were talking about something like "they wrote an adventure where you can kill Ramzan Kadyrov and free Chechnya from his oppressive regime". Again, I haven't actually touched anything related to VTM except for the video game because shortly after playing the video game I heard that the then-current version was being run by fash, so I stayed the Hell away.

[Themetricsystem]

Obligatory note that Godwin's Law has been affirmed yet again, sadly it took less than two full pages of discussion to get to the point in this case.

[dirtypool]

All of that back and forth could easily have been avoided if you took the things you heard and presented them as merely that rather than pushing back against anything you were told and presenting things you heard as things you know.

[Ian G]

dirtypool wrote:

All of that back and forth could easily have been avoided if you took the things you heard and presented them as merely that rather than pushing back against anything you were told and presenting things you heard as things you know.

It could also have been avoided if you had explained what you meant instead of expecting somebody who explicitly stated that they stay away from VTM and related products and have done so for a while to know the specifics of an element of a VTM sourcebook. Your original wording--

Quote:

Fighting Nazi’s might be fun, including an actual despot who murders actual people as a cartoonish villain under the control of your Ventrue, or toppling a current real world strong man so you can take control of their country is quite dismissive of actual people’s actual plight.

--pretty clearly implies that you oppose ALL portrayals of real scumbags as villains to fight in games. Which is what I was objecting to.

[Tristan d'Ambrosius]

*headdesk*
*headdesk*

[Andostre]

dirtypool wrote:

All of that back and forth could easily have been avoided if you...

It also could have been avoided if you were more judicious regarding how often you hop on your soapbox. You are a common denominator for SO MANY thread derailments and arguments on these forums in the past few months.

[dirtypool]

No, my original wording was:

dirtypool wrote:

Additionally the real world persecution of the Chechen LGTBQ community was treated as a plot element in the Camarilla sourcebook.

The quote you used was after you made not one, but two attempts to defend something you now acknowledge you had no understanding of and was used to illustrate with the following statement: "toppling a current real world strong man so you can take control of their country is quite dismissive of actual people’s actual plight" what I meant when I said it was crass.

Because using other peoples horrors for your fun is reductive of other people and the horrors they experienced.

[fujisempai]

In an attempt to bring things back on topic
I'm personally a fan of the setting of alpha complex. I greatly enjoy all of the contradictions of the setting and the doublespeak you need to use to survive....or not.

[Ian G]

dirtypool wrote:

No, my original wording was:

dirtypool wrote:

Additionally the real world persecution of the Chechen LGTBQ community was treated as a plot element in the Camarilla sourcebook.

The quote you used was after you made not one, but two attempts to defend something you now acknowledge you had no understanding of and was used to illustrate with the following statement: "toppling a current real world strong man so you can take control of their country is quite dismissive of actual people’s actual plight" what I meant when I said it was crass.

Because using other peoples horrors for your fun is reductive of other people and the horrors they experienced.

Your original wording is equally unclear. You mention no specifics and your statement could just as easily refer to an adventure hook that boils down to "Ramzan Kadyrov is murdering gay people. You are a gay vampire, go have fun fighting his private army and eating him!" Which I would personally have fun doing, albeit I'd prefer leaving him stripped naked, spray-painted pink, and chained to a cruise missile that would then be shot over the Caspian.

If you are only in this to score social-justice virtue points, I'm done talking to you. Life's too short to argue over whether or not it's OK to engage in power fantasies of overthrowing murderous dictators. Especially since I've made my stance of approving of such fantasies on principle quite clear.

[TriOmegaZero]

Themetricsystem wrote:

Obligatory note that Godwin's Law has been affirmed yet again, sadly it took less than two full pages of discussion to get to the point in this case.

How are you supposed to avoid discussing Nazis when you bring up a campaign setting/RPG literally set in WW2?

[Ian G]

fujisempai wrote:

In an attempt to bring things back on topic

I'm personally a fan of the setting of alpha complex. I greatly enjoy all of the contradictions of the setting and the doublespeak you need to use to survive....or not.

Is that the one where you are all clones working for Friend Computer? I tried that one once with my buddy who played the gunslinger in my Hell's Rebels group. It was a ton of fun, I evaded Friend Computer's hatred of Communism by professing my belief in Vladimir Lenin and Karl Marx.

(it makes sense in context)