As a GM, is there a player type you personally don’t allow at your tables?

[Michael Talley 759]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Michael Talley 759 wrote:

nope, I welcome all types. a few Murderhobos often complain after a few sessions when they notice their monstrous race character builds are being treated as monsters.

Question: did you TELL the players up front their monstrous race characters would be hunted as monsters?

One of my homebrews, had a backstory involving orcs and barbarism both being very bad and socially prejudiced against. I gave the players a "player's guide" to the region with this info, then reviewed it at Session 0. One of my players decided to be a half-orc barbarian.

I asked her "are you SURE you want to play that character in this region, based on the negative perception everyone has of both barbarians in general and all things Orcish?" She's like, umm... yeah, why?

2 adventures in, the PCs make it to a backwater village. The half-orc barbarian is stopped at the stockade wall and told she'll have to sleep in the barn with the rest of the pigs; the other PCs were welcome. What ensued was a near total murder of the village militia, halted only by swift intervention from the party's wizard.

The player was genuinely peeved that her character was so blatantly discriminated against. I calmly handed her the printed copy of the player's guide and pointed to the "Orc Wars" section.

I always try to tell my players, up front, if their PCs will have some disadvantage based on the way I'm running the setting, their race, class or whatever, preferably before they've even decided what to play. That being said, I have no control over whether or not they remember or care about those disadvantages.

yup. I asked. This same player was also one that believed Charisma was more important than Strength and Constitution for a Barbarian, and almost Rage quit because they also rolled at a single Stat Roll campaign (IE, only roll once and for each stat down the list) I still have that list too: 18, 16, 18, 12, 14, 5

That one wasn't my campaign (the die roll one) my stats sucked in that game. 10, 14, 12, 13, 12, 8. Ended up playing a Thief Style rogue because I was told it was going to be a city based Campaign. GM lied, it was Wilderness war story.

[Mark Hoover 330]

OMG... liars. I don't know that they're liars up front usually, but I've made a point to distance myself from any gamers that are liars. Like, I get the urge IRL to lie to me about big, major things in your life; not saying I CONDONE those lies but what the hey, I get it. But lying about your die rolls, or your PC's scrolls, or what kind of a campaign setting this is? Like, just why?

Anyway MT 759, I feel your pain then. As you can see I've run up against telling my players something, they don't either listen or take me seriously, make a decision, then suffer the consequences I mentioned and they get mad at me for whatever reason.

But liars... I had a GM end of last year/beginning of this year who first ran a 3.5 campaign, then a 5e campaign. In both I asked up front for primers on the games. Like, this guy is SUCH a fan of lies of omission... huge blind spots plus his general gaming style led to me just quitting both games.

Currently I'm saddled with a guy who lies routinely about his character, cheats on his die rolls, etc. I want to kick him outta' my table SO bad, but he's friends of the other players, most of which I inherited through a mutual friend, and there's this weird social dynamic at play... bottom line, I've been asked by the other 3 in the game NOT to boot this player.

It is SOOO annoying. Like, every level I have to audit his PC. I randomly change ACs of monsters attacking him or else he'll just hit, magically, on EVERY attack! SO infuriating.

[Michael Talley 759]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

OMG... liars. I don't know that they're liars up front usually, but I've made a point to distance myself from any gamers that are liars. Like, I get the urge IRL to lie to me about big, major things in your life; not saying I CONDONE those lies but what the hey, I get it. But lying about your die rolls, or your PC's scrolls, or what kind of a campaign setting this is? Like, just why?

Anyway MT 759, I feel your pain then. As you can see I've run up against telling my players something, they don't either listen or take me seriously, make a decision, then suffer the consequences I mentioned and they get mad at me for whatever reason.

But liars... I had a GM end of last year/beginning of this year who first ran a 3.5 campaign, then a 5e campaign. In both I asked up front for primers on the games. Like, this guy is SUCH a fan of lies of omission... huge blind spots plus his general gaming style led to me just quitting both games.

Currently I'm saddled with a guy who lies routinely about his character, cheats on his die rolls, etc. I want to kick him outta' my table SO bad, but he's friends of the other players, most of which I inherited through a mutual friend, and there's this weird social dynamic at play... bottom line, I've been asked by the other 3 in the game NOT to boot this player.

It is SOOO annoying. Like, every level I have to audit his PC. I randomly change ACs of monsters attacking him or else he'll just hit, magically, on EVERY attack! SO infuriating.

Yeah, Liar's are so much fun. Had a similar player in one game. they hated the Defensive Spell Displacement and for some reason could never quite get the right even odd to make hits 100% of the time. {*innocent Halo appears over my small horns*} Generally had it as a one-use item, normally increased combat long enough for everyone to have fun. I did this after I noticed the player had one d20 on a natural twenty in their roll container and would roll another d20 and then of course claim the first one was the die roll.

the one they were dating generally protected them saying they saw them roll.

I'm not a big fan of an Eye for an Eye, but sometimes, the only way to nip it in the bud. Some players are new and don't know everything (had a player constantly stacking AC bonuses that wouldn't stack, but too their credit once they got past that rule it was fair sailing)

also if you can find it, you might find some amusement in the "Too much of good thing" Rule from Teenagers from Outerspace. It's meant for humor Comedy RPG's but it can be adapted for other genres easily enough and can make cheating start backfiring on the person/group.

[Azothath]

McDaygo wrote:

I know the GM guide covers different types of players and conflicts but I’m curious if any of You flat out ban a player type at your tables.

For me Unless I am playing with an advanced group that is there for the story vs. just rolling dice to kill s@*~ I soft ban antagonist players. (The player that is always counter productive to the party to slows down sessions. Now with an advanced group and I have a a player I speak to them about it instead who I know can be the subtle hidden villain I’ll allow case by case but that also depends the group. I’ve seen some players get majorly mad out of character at in character betrayals.

Then other one isn’t so much a ban but a warning to my players to don’t build just for combat because my games are more then just murder marathons and actions have consequences.

there are several things in your post but mostly play style differences, some bias, and some emotional reactions.

disagreements and conflicts will happen.
how you deal with it is more the issue.

I don't have a problem with stylistic choices or min-max builds so long and they are 'legal' and of reasonable taste. How people design characters tells me about their system knowledge and creativity. How someone plays the game and what enjoyment they get out of it is rather individual. As a GM I try to accommodate what the players want within reason. I actually enjoy competent rules lawyers and creative power-gamers for the most part as it's good to be at a table with creative intelligent folks. Social skills are part of the game as usually 4-7 people are at a table and sometimes we all need to work on those skills...

Format is also an issue as there are home games, Org Play games, and then Org Play games at a convention.... They have different criteria & expectations so they're not quite the same.

Over the years, yes, I have very few people(less than 6 out of literally 1000s) that are not welcome at my table and they have thoroughly earned that honor through their actions. As a GM the most problematic won't sit at my table so it's self correcting and I appreciate their avoidance. There are a few GMs that I avoid as I've found them lacking or incompetent in their understanding and execution of a game and there's no need to aggravate myself.

With home games it is more whom you invite to play.

OTOH it is a social activity and I'm sure some players have strong opinions about the role I play as a GM at different times with different circumstances.

[Azothath]

I'm reluctant to post about how to handle cheating in your game as it's click bait for keyboard warriors and trolls.

With physical cheating/fudging or 'incompetent math'; Suffice it to say that a clear procedural process which can be easily and commonly observed is usually the solution. A calculator and notation solves incompetent math (often bonuses are just miscalculated & misapplied).
Analyzing the whys and hows that got people there are usually best done in person and require time, effort, and some tact.

I find that 'cheating' on character building is usually due to ignorance (not knowing or reliance on 'an expert opinion'), wishful thinking, or rarely just down right immaturity, egotistical self fulfillment, or denial. A character review settles all but the last which is a people problem.

While GM's play the role of expert and Adult In Tha Room, we're actually arbiters of what seems fair, just, and balanced. GMs like players make mistakes.

2 rick rolls ≡ rick rack

[Senko]

I will weigh in on the other side that being accused of lying/cheating when your not can be really frustrating. I've had it done to me when I was having a ridiculously lucky streak of dice rolls and the GM accused me of cheating and said I either rolled in front of him with his dice or leave. I was amusingly vindicated with the next attack. D6 slingshot in early starwars where a 6 means you reroll and add till you roll other than a 6. My results were 34 to hit (5 sixes in a row) then 29 to damage (4 more natural sixes). He never accused me of cheating again, though he did wonder what was up with my luck as for that game I kept rolling consistently high till it came for something very important when I'd roll equally badly. One result had him decide I'd not just failed my sneak check but failed it badly enough that I triped, fell through the wall and managed to tie mysself up (tangled in a shower curtain) in the villains bathroom.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Yeah... the player I'm talking about is legendary for their cheating. Like, I get what Senko is saying and I don't usually throw accusations around lightly, but this person is 100% cheating. I've watched it happen.

It's not just cheating at math though. Two of the character's feats are Dodge and Mobility. Routinely this player announces their AC factoring in the Mobility, completely ignoring that this feat ONLY affects their AC when moving through threatened areas. They don't FORGET this fact; it's clearly spelled out on a notecard I gave them and its abbreviated on the hard copy of the character sheet as well.

As it's been explained to me by the other player who have gamed with this person for decades, the cheating player simply seems to only perceive all of the good things on their character. For example in the last game before mine the cheating player had a PC with Power Attack, no Furious Focus. This would mean the character's got -1 to attack for every +2 the feat gives to damage right?

This player NEVER applied that penalty, over the course of SIXTEEN levels. My buddy that GM'd the campaign had to remind the player in real time or simply remember to lower the final attack number given. After a while my buddy just simply stopped trying.

This cheating player has a compulsive need for their character to be the best. I've caught them in my game taking an extra feat when leveling that they shouldn't have, using/applying feats incorrectly, claiming movement speeds that are not correct, lying about attacks and skill checks. I also did the math several levels ago and realized that, when leveling, they were just giving their character max HP every level.

It is exhausting to put up with. I've tried interventions and concessions. I had a talk with the player early on. With the "don't kick them out of the group" rule though, this player can't really suffer any lasting repercussions for their actions. Also whenever you really get upset and call them out they play the victim, feigning ignorance, gaslighting folks and just generally portraying themselves as a wounded puppy.

So... I come to these boards and vent. Hopefully I'm not bothering folks too much.

[Azothath]

yes, you're caught in a social dilemma between family associations and your sense of fair play.
My suggestion is to >seriously< talk to the person that brings the problem with them to the table, essentially they are acting as a cohort enabling the behavior and you are trying not to enable the bad behavior. Explain that open acceptable cheating is just the symptom in your game as there are likely deeper problems that may need professional help.
Pathological Lying is a compulsive behavior and probably beyond what you can deal with in a game.

My other advice is to change the thrust of the game to nearly pure storytelling & style with little combat or direct conflict. That removes the benefit of cheating as you call on players creativity to describe what they are doing and how it affects other players. For rewards give out the majority and reserve a bit, allot the balance based on the best & most entertaining story in your opinion & on a confidential party vote for the same. It will tend to dampen overly narcissistic narratives. Examples are; Care Bears, My Little Ponies, Big Bird & Oscar the grouch vignettes, Sailor Moon, ummm, Call of Cthulhu(everybody dies or goes crazy), Stormbringer(stylistic)... you get the idea.
If you want to be overt - get a role playing scoreboard with brownie points in front of your GM screen so it becomes an obvious point of fairness & competition.
Within PF Scenarios; 4-09, 6-10, 7-22, ...
No-Monster Challenge thread
Non-combat encounters

[Senko]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Yeah... the player I'm talking about is legendary for their cheating. Like, I get what Senko is saying and I don't usually throw accusations around lightly, but this person is 100% cheating. I've watched it happen.

It's not just cheating at math though. Two of the character's feats are Dodge and Mobility. Routinely this player announces their AC factoring in the Mobility, completely ignoring that this feat ONLY affects their AC when moving through threatened areas. They don't FORGET this fact; it's clearly spelled out on a notecard I gave them and its abbreviated on the hard copy of the character sheet as well.

As it's been explained to me by the other player who have gamed with this person for decades, the cheating player simply seems to only perceive all of the good things on their character. For example in the last game before mine the cheating player had a PC with Power Attack, no Furious Focus. This would mean the character's got -1 to attack for every +2 the feat gives to damage right?

This player NEVER applied that penalty, over the course of SIXTEEN levels. My buddy that GM'd the campaign had to remind the player in real time or simply remember to lower the final attack number given. After a while my buddy just simply stopped trying.

This cheating player has a compulsive need for their character to be the best. I've caught them in my game taking an extra feat when leveling that they shouldn't have, using/applying feats incorrectly, claiming movement speeds that are not correct, lying about attacks and skill checks. I also did the math several levels ago and realized that, when leveling, they were just giving their character max HP every level.

It is exhausting to put up with. I've tried interventions and concessions. I had a talk with the player early on. With the "don't kick them out of the group" rule though, this player can't really suffer any lasting repercussions for their actions. Also whenever you really get upset and call them out they play the victim, feigning ignorance,...

I know someone like that at work who I hate associating with they just can't tell the truth. One example was when we'd gotten pool vehicles at work due to a shortage of ones avilable for our numbers.

8:00
Work group leader calls to say they had to got in to the depot for some paperwork and we can wait for them or also go in if we have things we need done (I confirmed this with them).
8:01
WGL said we can go in to the depot if we need to.
8:02
Do you want to go into the depot.
8:03
Oh I made a mistake WGL said they can go into the depot if they need to but we have to.
8:08 on way into depot.
Oh hey since we're going into the depot anyway why don't you go in and return the keys for this car then I'll go in and collect the keys for the new one (badly implemented system).
8:08
Why don't you just take the keys in yourself and swap them for the new ones.
8:08
No that could get us questioned on why we're trading cars like this so you just return these keys and I'll get the new ones.

Seriously why lie about all this (I knew what they were up to as soon as the story started changing about who had to go into the depot) instead of just asking me to come in and swap the cars. Especially since (1) swapping cars is what we were directly instructed to do by high level management as we can only have them out 4 consecutive days and (2) the swap had been arranged for that afternoon so there wasn't a new vehicle to collect anyway.

Its something they do consistently though I don't think I've had a single interaction with them where they started by telling the truth. Its always (1) lie, (2) if called on your lie try changing the story, (3) if story changing doesn't work try to guilt the person into thinking your the victim and finally (4) blame someone else. Yet for some bizare reason they think we're friends when I've said to their face I don't like them.

[Temperans]

I view myself as very lenient as long as the player doesn't try to break the system or use something that is clearly way above their CR. (The only thing I have "banned" is using Polymorph to turn into a creature above your CR)

So far players have left without me even trying to ban them. All because I refuse to allow BS characters one way or another.

[Claxon]

Temperans wrote:

I view myself as very lenient as long as the player doesn't try to break the system or use something that is clearly way above their CR. (The only thing I have "banned" is using Polymorph to turn into a creature above your CR)

So far players have left without me even trying to ban them. All because I refuse to allow BS characters one way or another.

I agree with this, and I would consider it good and lucky to have a player leave when you told them no to their attempted shenanigans. If they're going to threaten to leave about not getting to use their over powered BS then you probably didn't want them at the table anyways.

[Reksew_Trebla]

With the pandemic, most people. Only people my mom was going to interact with normally, are allowed, because she is immunocompromised or whatever the term is. So family members or close neighbors (since we believe in helping the community out, so I regularly give leftover food to them that my mom made).

I once tried to host a game online, but quickly realized I wasn’t equipped (tech wise) to draw maps, since I only have my crappy, heavily outdated iPhone to go online with (also at the time, my PS3, but I don’t have the ability to draw with that, as far as I know anyways).