At what level could one reliably bind a 9HD demon...

Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

The demon in question is a Nabasu...
CR8, SR 19, and Charisma of 19.

I don't know much about Planar Binding... something about circles and traps... I know they can use their Spell Resistance as a check against your Caster Level to try escape. I don't know if things that add CL for certain schools would help, even if it was for schools you used to call the critter.

The possible Charisma check seems easy enough for any halfway dedicated Charisma caster to win. But I may be underestimating that... kind of why I am asking the question.

To be completely honest, I would much rather make a deal with it, than enslave it. As a Cult Master Mesmerist, I want to have my Cohort call it to use its Death-Stealing Gaze to turn my followers into Ghouls/Ghasts/Wights/JuJu Zombies. Lol. These aforementioned Ghouls/Ghasts/Wights/JuJu Zombies would be under the Nabasu's control, so it would behoove me to not be fighting with it every step of the way (at that point there are way easier ways to make Undead).

We can put my soul up for grabs if the demon needs something in return... I will put it in a little box, the demon can wear it on their necklace or belt... I might even stop by every once in while (every time a Paladin Smite's my Lich @$$). Anyways, the Nabasu also gets growth points from Consume Life, and could mature into an Advanced, Giant Nabasu Demon... so it's not like this won't also be fun for the demon involved. Our combined forces will raise hell. Lol.

What is the earliest level one could reasonably expect to call and coerce a Nabasu Demon?

How about a Charisma caster with access to the spells, but no real dedication to binding/calling beyond, potentially, summoning?

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I think money is your best solution here. Buy a scroll of Planar Binding and buy all of the stuff to make it more likely to work. It's not all too expensive, depending on your level, but it is pretty narrow. I made the mistake of somehow skipping a chunk (or two!) of text and didn't see your class or any of the slightly important parts. I got really fixated on the 'what's the earliest I could bind a Nabasu?' part. I'm just going to leave my ignorant response in the spoilers below and maybe there is enough specific information within to help you. As I know nothing about the cohort just yet, my hope is that you have the option of making it fresh and clear- in which case my statements below may still be valid. :D

This is what happens when you don't fully read the post:
Planar Binding is a 6th level spell. That typically requires an 11th level wizard.

So let's use scrolls since they aren't gated by level, just by cost and availability.

At 1,650 gp, you can afford the scroll by level 3. And since we don't plan on ever being close to level 11 to do this trick, we'll have to contend with a DC 12 CL check to use the scroll successfully.
We also have to beat the 19 SR of the Nabasu, and she has a +9 bonus to her will save. Furthermore, her charisma is 19 and that gives her a +4 bonus.

The DC of the spell from the scroll will be 19.
The CL of the scroll will be +11.

In most cases you have a 50% or better chance of success on all phases of the binding. Unfortunately, you have many phases of the binding and only 50% odds during many of them.

To increase those odds you can do these things:

Start with a 20 and an 18 in any combination of Charisma and Intelligence and dump the other stats.
Be an Elf and take Overwhelming Magic or Illustrious Urbanite and select Spell Focus Conjuration. At 3rd level take Greater Spell Focus Conjuration. Pick Divination Specialist-Foresight Wizard and take the Cypher Magic feat at 1st level to gain an additional +2 on your CL to activate scrolls of higher CL than your own. Grab the Arcane Dabbler or Magical Talent trait and select the cantrip 'Tap Inner Beauty'.

If you make it to the bargaining phase, ask the outsider to do something it generally is uninterested in but offer it the Sinner's Wage (500 gp) in the payment for an additional +2 profane bonus to your charisma check. Otherwise, ask it to do something it would like for a variable and unknown bonus ranging from +0 to +6 depending on the GM. Realistically, however, the odds are that you'll lack the means for a proper reward worthy of a bonus to the check for a Nabasu and probably won't be calling it for something it is interested in so the Sinner's Wage is likely the only bonus you'll be able to get.

You can do everything at level 3 but the odds don't favor you. If you wait until level 6 or 7 you have a lot more going for you.

At 5th level instead of a bonus feat we take Idealize Arcane Discovery and cast Eagles Splendor and Foxes Cunning which will each give us +6 to our ability scores.

Our third level spell slot is Magic Circle Against Evil and we'll take a 20 by spending the 3 and a half hours to make it perfect. This will increase the DC of the charisma check by 5.

We take the Cypher Mage Prestige Class at 6th level and grab the Insightful Scroll cypher lore to let us use our stats and feats for the scrolls DC.

We spend some of our wealth on a scroll of Dimensional Anchor (700 gp) to make sure it doesn't use its greater teleport to simply leave due to being summoned by a level 6 mortal and a Circlet of Persuasion (4,500 gp) to increase our odds on the charisma front.

At this point, you have cast Foxes Cunning, Eagles Splendor, Magic Circle Against Evil, Dimensional Anchor (from a scroll), and Planar Binding (from a scroll).

When activating the scrolls your CL check is made at +8 and the DC's are 12 and 8 for the Planar Binding and Dimensional Anchor, respectively.
When casting the Planar Binding Spell, the will save DC is now set at 26 because you have a 26 intelligence and both Spell Focuses. When the Nabasu realizes how weak you are, she will attempt to murder you and try to use her SR of 19 to walk through your trap but you have a CL of +12 from the scroll at the moment giving you favorable, if not still very risky odds. However, you have made this irrelevant by spending several hours drawing that diagram from above. Now she will attempt to teleport directly to you but the Dimensional anchor will completely prevent this. Next she will impose her will on you and the barrier to shatter it and then your level 6, stat-dumped mortal frame. The DC will be 33 based on your 24 charisma and the +5 bonus from the Magic Circle diagram.

At this stage she will be open to 'negotiations' and you'll have to convince her with the opposed charisma check. Her +4 bonus will have to contend with the honeyed words represented by your +14 and you get to roll twice for this effectively) thanks to the Prescience power of the Foresight school. If you spend nearly all of your level 6 wealth, you can purchase an Amulet of the Spirits (Heavens) and have a +16 bonus to your opposed charisma check. At this point you would be a broke 6th level wizard with a 9 HD demon at your command.

Oh good.

Don't worry about skimming past the body of the original post... the majority of it is mainly fluff, anyways.

The Cohort has yet to be built, and could be put together specifically for this purpose, if I want to lock it down early. Cult Master gets Leadership at 7, so it is "possible" right out the gate if one is willing to gamble... interesting.

Well, Cult Masters cannot outright kill their followers without penalty until level 14... and it is probably a nearly guaranteed success at that level... I have time to convince my followers to drink the demonic koolaid.

I can see it now... "join me in undeath, leave behind your weak mortality... forget about your worries and your strife, just look for the bare necessities of life"... wait, ummm, nevermind.

I don't know if you've ever seen Doug M's old guide to planar binding, but one of the rules of thumb he recommended was to never try to bind anything higher CR than your level -1.

This isn't an is-it-possible rule of thumb, it's more of a safety rule of thumb to minimize the chances of dying messily at the hands of an angry outsider.

So 9th level to bind a CR 8. Which is actually lower level than you need to be to normally cast the spell, so if you can normally cast planar binding, knock yourself out on binding a Nabasu. If you're trying to do it with a scroll at low levels, though, be prepared to risk wasting some scroll money, not to mention your neck. It can be attempted but cannot reasonably be described as reliable, which is what you asked for.

Now, depending on how strictly you interpret reliably, the strict answer might be never. No matter how good you are at binding, there's going to be some sort of failure chance. If you ever roll a 1 on your opposed Charisma check, the creature breaks free, modifiers ignored. Which means that if you have any access to reroll powers - not discussed in the guide - those are a great idea as well.

Opposed check failures that aren't natural 1s don't let the creature break loose but do mean you'll have to roll again and have another chance to toss that 1. The chance of rolling a natural 1 on one check is, of course, 5%. If you need to try the Cha check many times, the chances of rolling a 1 at least once quickly get significant.

However, if you're doing your bindings right (meaning that you have the necessary supporting spells, you put in the effort to make a proper calling diagram, etc.), then that natural 1 on the opposed Cha check should be the only one of the spell's mechanics that can let the outsider break loose once it has failed its initial Will save and has been bound. You should be able to raise the DC of the outsider's nonopposed Cha escape check (20+1/2 CL+your Cha, with a diagram) high enough that it cannot pass on a natural 20, and you should have prepared for your binding such that none of the other means of breaking loose discussed in the spell are allowed.

The outsider may still be able to try to break free outside the normal mechanics of the spell. For instance, sweet talking your apprentice into doing something that will break the diagram. You should arrange your binding so as to forestall this as well - make it a protected location where the environment won't naturally threaten the calling diagram, and make it a secure location that others, including your cohort, can't get into when you're not there. A purpose-built summoning chamber in your dungeon or tower is not just thematic, it's pragmatic.

Your character, as the main caster, may know better, but tricking someone less knowledgeable into breaking the circle is practically a demon binding trope.

Thank you for the detailed response. I have heard not to try bind things above one's paygrade... that is why I was conerned about which level it would be accessible the earliest. The Cult Master is level 7 when they get a level 5 cohort. At this level it is borderline suicidal, but technically possible.

Since literally none of the required spells are on the Mesmerist's spell list, the cohort will be a Sorcerer built specifically to handle the "negotiations"... Charisma caster with access to all the right spells. Sorcerer gets 6th-level spells at level 12, which would put the Cult Master at level 14.

And, coincidentally, level 14 is when a Cult Master can kill their followers without negatively affecting their Leadership score. Now I can have my cohort call the demon, and tell my followers to accept the demon's "gift". With the Ring of the Ecclesiarch, I have twice the regular number of followers, so I have an abundance of 1HD peasants that will die if targeted by the demon. Lots and lots...

Demon turns followers into Ghouls/Ghasts/Wights/JuJu Zombies, and we have ourselves a little army. My entire cult, a matured [Advanced, Giant] Nabasu demon, and a bunch of Undead. There are Necromancers in my cult that have their own Undead, and the demon's Ghouls/Ghasts will undoubtedly make more Ghouls and Ghasts... that is why I chose the Nabasu demon... Ghouls make more Ghouls that make more Ghouls that make more...

I absolutely adore any Undead that can create more Undead.

So the diagram removes the Spell Resistance check against Magic Circle, right?

Is the demon's SR capable of breaking the Dimensional Anchor? Dimensional Anchor doesn't offer a save, but it is subject to Spell Resistance.

My cohort will beat it, regardless, but I want to get my order of operations correct.

Not that anyone wants to be around, much less handle/manipulate, Blightburn... but would drawing the diagram out of powderized Blightburn crystals work to interfere with the attempt(s) to teleport out? Can you force CL checks on SLA's? Would the radiation's Con-drain/Cha-damage effects add or subtract from one's bargaining power at the negotiating table?

The biggest problem is securing their loyalty such that it remains after they are undead. Followed by successfully indoctrinating or otherwise incorporating into your forces any undead they spawn that aren't thralls by the nature of the spawning.

I figure not every demon can be immediately caught up in their own BS, right?

First question when you have their attention is if they are busy. Lol.

It's a Nabasu demon... they get to automatically "level up" if they make 20 Ghouls. It's not like they don't get anything out of this agreement. The Ghouls created by the Nabasu are under the Nabasu's control... the demon could just tell those Ghouls to obey me, or whatever. Or, the demon could march with my army, if they have nothing better going on... command their own Ghouls within a larger horde. Everyone that stands against us is potentially another Ghoul... and another possibiliy for the Nabasu to mature.

The demon would essentially get a demon-worshipping cult of necromancers as part of the deal... it's not like I actually have plans for this army, yet. Kind of just winging it. If the Nabasu has aspirations that require an army of Undead, I don't have anything better going on... and thus, none of my followers have anything better going on...

I'm bringing this back, as I have found more stuff about the Nabasu...

So, every time the Nabasu makes a Ghoul or whatever with their Death-Stealing Gaze, they make a Caster Level check to go to hell to level up... their first successful Ghoul has about a 15% of having this happen... stacking an additional 5% for each successful Ghoul it makes... so it only takes like 7 Ghouls before the Nasabu has a 50% of getting yanked by Xoveron to the depths of Ghahazi to "graduate". They automatically POOF back to Ghahazi to start their leveling up process...

Nasabu level up into CR 19 Vrolikai demons. I don't know how long this process takes, but the Nabasu gain the Advanced and Giant templates immediately upon succeeding their Caster Level check after making a Ghoul. They can always use their Greater Teleport to come back to the Material Plane from the Abyss, I suppose.

Nabasu actually normally reside on the Material Plane, and it sounds like them making Ghouls may be their only way into Ghahazi. Maybe this would motivate a Nabasu to work with a cult. Here are a bunch of peasants guaranteed to be killed by your Death-Stealing Gaze... Ghoul, Ghoul, Ghoul... POOF... Advanced-Giant Nabasu... you're welcome.

Get their True Name, somehow, so you can call them back when they are a CR 19 Vrolikai... tell them to bring a few of their Ulkreth titans of destruction... now it's a party!

Is there a way to give feats to something? I would like to somehow equip this Nabasu with the Improved Death-Stealing feat, which requires Ability Focus... the 9HD Nabasu does not have Ability Focus, and neither does the 19HD Vrolikai. I suppose if it's my slave, I can force it to retrain what it already has... but I that just means I am rewriting monsters as the GM. Lol.

Do you think the Horned Prince [Xoveron] would be upset if my cult just made a direct graduation pipeline for Nabasu demons? Does the dark prince of gluttony give a $#!+ if we flood Ghahazi with fresh Advanced-Giant Nabasu waiting to level up into Vrolikai demons?

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^Now I have this vision of a Nabasu mail-order diploma mill . . . .

UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Now I have this vision of a Nabasu mail-order diploma mill . . . .

Yeah, except we call you...

Learning the True Name of one of the, if not the, first Nabasu to pass through our friendly fiendish community college would be hugely beneficial if we are going to keep this up for any measure of time... I'm sure it is not a short process for a demon to grow 10HD and mature into a CR 19 Vrolikai... but THAT is the sort of demon that may be able to set up a little corner of Ghahazi to hold the Ghouls/Ghasts/Wights/JuJu Zombies... what better place than hell for barracks full of Undead?

All of the aforementioned Ghouls/Ghasts/Wights/JuJu Zombies are capable of creating some sort of spawn... an exponential growth factor best contained until ready to use.

Maybe if we promise to break enough stuff, we can gain the favor of the Horned Prince, himself, and may receive "extra" support in the way of additional Vrolikai, and/or Ulkreth demons... one must always appreciate the destructive power of an Ulkreth titan.

That raises a question, does a fiend's true name stay the same when they get promoted or does it change?

what better place than hell for barracks full of Undead?

Well, if you have the ability to cast Greater Create Demiplane, then one of your Demiplanes is better, since then you can open a portal to wherever you want to deploy them en masse. A bit more tricky to do that on many of the lower planes.

I'm not convinced that this demon will stay entirely reliable once it's gone up to CR19 and has an army of ghouls at its disposal. But that's just me. I'm suspicious that way. Maybe I have trust issues.

Mudfoot wrote:
I'm not convinced that this demon will stay entirely reliable once it's gone up to CR19 and has an army of ghouls at its disposal. But that's just me. I'm suspicious that way. Maybe I have trust issues.

What could possibly go wrong?

I'm not exactly doing any of this with a plan or anything... make a deal with a few devils, raise an army of Undead that can spread exponentially, try recruit some titans of destruction... just see where it goes.

As long as $#!+ gets broken, I don't really care... just trying to raise hell... if the demon comes up with a target or focus for this destruction, that's cool, too... if not, we will just break everything we touch until someone stops us.

VoodistMonk wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Now I have this vision of a Nabasu mail-order diploma mill . . . .

Yeah, except we call you...

Now I've got this vision of a Demon finally getting fed up enough with spam calls (and being unable to locate the spammer to seek vengeance) to start crusading for that most heretical of ideas for the Lower Planes: a Do Not Call list.

" They can always use their Greater Teleport to come back to the Material Plane from the Abyss, I suppose."

pretty sure that spell doesn't allow planer travel. need a plane shift or something like that for it.

getting it's true name if i remember will make it's SR non relevant for some of the things (or all of them, not sure) and that name would still be in his true name if he evolve. so investigating it is best while he is still lower cr\hd and easier to find out. (the dc get's higher with the hd\cr).

EDIT: about the sr\ name . i might have it mixed up with rules from 3.5 Van Richten's arsenal. for the Revenloft setting.

this might help

VoodistMonk wrote:
Mudfoot wrote:
I'm not convinced that this demon will stay entirely reliable once it's gone up to CR19 and has an army of ghouls at its disposal. But that's just me. I'm suspicious that way. Maybe I have trust issues.

What could possibly go wrong?

Most obviously, it kills the summoner and turns him into a ghoul. Now from a GM perspective that's just a story point for how there's a demon and an army of ghouls running about. But it doesn't look quite so clever from the summoner's POV.

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