Shaman in 2e - What do you want?

[BrolvethXXI]

I decided to convert shaman class into 2nd edition, however I didn't want to just copy and paste it but instead change it a little and add onto it to better fit 2e.

I already have the core and basic stuff like his spell casting, progression, mechanics, and some subclasses (spirit contracts), but I wanted to hear your opinion about the matter. What do you want from shaman?
If you know 1e shaman, tell me what aspects you want to remain or be changed.

How and what he should represent in your opinion? Role, tradition, abilities, powers and feats you Wish he had, possible build routes. What his role should be, whenever you want a subclass that is amazing healer, animalistic one possessing animal aspects and senses or fire shaman that is holding himself from setting the world on fire?

Maybe some concept from like book or video game character you like.

Basically give me your opinions while I am yet not finished with the class and release beta.

[keftiu]

I support what I believe was Michael Sayre’s dream of tossing out a lot of the 1e ideas and building a class inspired by actual shamanistic practices IRL instead.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

2E Shaman is basically a Druid or Primal Sorcerer/Witch with Beastmaster dedication built in. Nothing in that class combination isn't something that wasn't a PF1 Shaman.

I would like a spontaneous Primal class, but I don't think the PF1 Shaman is the chassis for that, nor do I find its mechanics from PF1 engaging enough for it to warrant being it's own class.

[BrolvethXXI]

keftiu wrote:

I support what I believe was Michael Sayre’s dream of tossing out a lot of the 1e ideas and building a class inspired by actual shamanistic practices IRL instead.

Agree, that's why I am not going to copy and paste it from 1e to 2e but change it and ask for your opinions and ideas. The problem with representing IRL practices and actual shamanism is it could be too broad of a concept to squish it into one class without archetypes that différance one shaman from another, multiple cultures had shamans and shamanistic practices that could work very differently from each other.

It is also risky to find the right sources and not miss represented shamanistic stuff. Like how the same person practicing magic was called a warlock, sorcerer, wizard, witch or even clerics(servants of gods) and other stuff by others at the same time, or even multiple of those terms were used by the same person to describe a practitioner of magic.

That's why I want to find some general concept shared in shamanism, like usage of spirits, and give as many good options as possible for others to build a shaman that would be accurate IRL, like healing, leading a sacrifice, storytelling/songs, guiding souls etc. Or be a specialized one that fulfill one of those roles.
Another thing is shaman is used in English, while other cultures could use another word. Languages are not always interchangeable, like how we try to categorize yokai from Japan as demons in western.

[BrolvethXXI]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

2E Shaman is basically a Druid or Primal Sorcerer/Witch with Beastmaster dedication built in. Nothing in that class combination isn't something that wasn't a PF1 Shaman.

I would like a spontaneous Primal class, but I don't think the PF1 Shaman is the chassis for that, nor do I find its mechanics from PF1 engaging enough for it to warrant being it's own class.

While this could be one way to make a shaman, I don't believe it portrays the class right both from 1e and thematically.

1e shaman was witch/oracle hybrid, so that would be my first idea if you want to build one without using homebrew, and it doesn't quite feel right. I mean if the reason for this class to be in 2e is based on 1e engaging mechanics then I would argue that wizard in 1e didn't have enough engaging mechanics, a school, being able to scribe scrolls and arcane bond, then every 5th lvl you would get bonus feat and that's it.

Like how swashbuckler could be just a rogue or magus a fighter with wizard dedications, witch be just wizard wizard with familiar feat and some focus spells since this combination isn't something that wasn't a pf1 witch. 2e is arguably more complex and expansive than 1e, just look at magus and his ability to not only use 1 handed weapon but a bow, staff and shield (although he could use some errata to fix some rough edges).

[Alchemic_Genius]

Im not an expert in irl shamanistic traditions (and that is a very broad topic), but I'd kinda like to see it as a support based class that helps allies via divination and communing with spirits. One common thing is that shamans are spiritual leaders, and offer guidance and support to their communities, captuing that would probably be a good start, and avert treading into offensive tropes

[Temperans]

BrolvethXXI wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

2E Shaman is basically a Druid or Primal Sorcerer/Witch with Beastmaster dedication built in. Nothing in that class combination isn't something that wasn't a PF1 Shaman.

I would like a spontaneous Primal class, but I don't think the PF1 Shaman is the chassis for that, nor do I find its mechanics from PF1 engaging enough for it to warrant being it's own class.

While this could be one way to make a shaman, I don't believe it portrays the class right both from 1e and thematically.

1e shaman was witch/oracle hybrid, so that would be my first idea if you want to build one without using homebrew, and it doesn't quite feel right. I mean if the reason for this class to be in 2e is based on 1e engaging mechanics then I would argue that wizard in 1e didn't have enough engaging mechanics, a school, being able to scribe scrolls and arcane bond, then every 5th lvl you would get bonus feat and that's it.

Like how swashbuckler could be just a rogue or magus a fighter with wizard dedications, witch be just wizard wizard with familiar feat and some focus spells since this combination isn't something that wasn't a pf1 witch. 2e is arguably more complex and expansive than 1e, just look at magus and his ability to not only use 1 handed weapon but a bow, staff and shield (although he could use some errata to fix some rough edges).

I will say, do be careful about the comparisons to PF1 as people often forget how expensive the options were.

In this case you forgetting that a base PF1 Magus can spellstrike with all melee weapons. 1 archetype let's them Spellstrike even better with staffs. 2 archetypes let them use any ranged weapons. 1 make them better with throwing cards. (Also before people mention 2-h weapons PF1 Magus could do it just more restricted in sequencing).

In any case, a Shaman should very much have a strong connection to spirits or at least 1 spirit. The ability to use hexes, much like the witch. And maybe, just maybe, a revelation type mechanic similar to the Oracle. Those are the 3 prime things associated with Shamans, outside of weird clothes and huts.

Maybe a few feats for rituals.

[Midnightoker]

There's a book Legendary Games is releasing Boricubos: Latin American Monsters and Adventures that I know for a fact has a PF2 Shaman.

The mechanics of which are I think truly amazing, but it's quite a bit different from the PF1 version (for the better). Highly recommend those looking to scratch the shaman itch take a look.

[BrolvethXXI]

Midnightoker wrote:

There's a book Legendary Games is releasing Boricubos: Latin American Monsters and Adventures that I know for a fact has a PF2 Shaman.

The mechanics of which are I think truly amazing, but it's quite a bit different from the PF1 version (for the better). Highly recommend those looking to scratch the shaman itch take a look.

Yea I was told few minutes after I post this threat, however I am still going to finish this class since I am almost done, it also works different from 1e. I am intrigued what he created, I know him from pathfinder2ecreation reddit where he posts MtG cards as monsters.

Temperans wrote:

I will say, do be careful about the comparisons to PF1 as people often forget how expensive the options were.

In this case you forgetting that a base PF1 Magus can spellstrike with all melee weapons. 1 archetype let's them Spellstrike even better with staffs. 2 archetypes let them use any ranged weapons. 1 make them better with throwing cards. (Also before people mention 2-h weapons PF1 Magus could do it just more restricted in sequencing).

In any case, a Shaman should very much have a strong connection to spirits or at least 1 spirit. The ability to use hexes, much like the witch. And maybe, just maybe, a revelation type mechanic similar to the Oracle. Those are the 3 prime things associated with Shamans, outside of weird clothes and huts.

Maybe a few feats for rituals.

As I mentioned I am not planing to copy 1e but use it as a point of reference, and make my shaman something different, and was much more interested in your own thought of what that class should be and which role you see him fitting.

My shaman subclass is based on the type of spirit or spirit realm you are contracted with, and options like feats that can grant additional contracted spirit low level abilities
Hexes in 2e don't exist, instead I worked with focus spells and placed incarnate trait on some of them, gave them some abilities, and gave different subclasses different passive and active abilities.
This shaman is not mix of oracle and witch abilities, instead he was builded around being its own class which its own mimic of switching "stances" that can grant you bonus to spellcasting, healing, ac or attack or another support ability.

[Midnightoker]

BrolvethXXI wrote:

Midnightoker wrote:

There's a book Legendary Games is releasing Boricubos: Latin American Monsters and Adventures that I know for a fact has a PF2 Shaman.

The mechanics of which are I think truly amazing, but it's quite a bit different from the PF1 version (for the better). Highly recommend those looking to scratch the shaman itch take a look.

Yea I was told few minutes after I post this threat, however I am still going to finish this class since I am almost done, it also works different from 1e. I am intrigued what he created, him from pathfinder2ecreation reddit where he posts MtG cards as monsters.

Temperans wrote:

I will say, do be careful about the comparisons to PF1 as people often forget how expensive the options were.

In this case you forgetting that a base PF1 Magus can spellstrike with all melee weapons. 1 archetype let's them Spellstrike even better with staffs. 2 archetypes let them use any ranged weapons. 1 make them better with throwing cards. (Also before people mention 2-h weapons PF1 Magus could do it just more restricted in sequencing).

In any case, a Shaman should very much have a strong connection to spirits or at least 1 spirit. The ability to use hexes, much like the witch. And maybe, just maybe, a revelation type mechanic similar to the Oracle. Those are the 3 prime things associated with Shamans, outside of weird clothes and huts.

Maybe a few feats for rituals.

As I mentioned I am not planing to copy 1e but use it as a point of reference, and make my shaman something different, and was much more interested in your own thought of what that class should be and which role you see him fitting.

My shaman subclass is based on the type of spirit or spirit realm you are contracted with, and options like feats that can grant additional contracted spirit low level abilities
Hexes in 2e don't exist, instead I worked with focus spells and placed incarnate trait on some of them, gave them some abilities, and gave different subclasses different...

I actually worked on it with them, but I don't know what I can actually disclose and it was Dustin's architecture/design.

If you're doing your own imagining, I'll keep it to myself so as not to damage your creative process :)

[Darksol the Painbringer]

BrolvethXXI wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

2E Shaman is basically a Druid or Primal Sorcerer/Witch with Beastmaster dedication built in. Nothing in that class combination isn't something that wasn't a PF1 Shaman.

I would like a spontaneous Primal class, but I don't think the PF1 Shaman is the chassis for that, nor do I find its mechanics from PF1 engaging enough for it to warrant being it's own class.

While this could be one way to make a shaman, I don't believe it portrays the class right both from 1e and thematically.

1e shaman was witch/oracle hybrid, so that would be my first idea if you want to build one without using homebrew, and it doesn't quite feel right. I mean if the reason for this class to be in 2e is based on 1e engaging mechanics then I would argue that wizard in 1e didn't have enough engaging mechanics, a school, being able to scribe scrolls and arcane bond, then every 5th lvl you would get bonus feat and that's it.

Like how swashbuckler could be just a rogue or magus a fighter with wizard dedications, witch be just wizard wizard with familiar feat and some focus spells since this combination isn't something that wasn't a pf1 witch. 2e is arguably more complex and expansive than 1e, just look at magus and his ability to not only use 1 handed weapon but a bow, staff and shield (although he could use some errata to fix some rough edges).

So then Primal Witch with Beastmaster dedication, since the two big features of the Shaman class was a spirit companion (basically can reflavor Beastmaster abilities), and Hexes (which are still the primary Witch chassis, even though they stink), with Spellcasting (Primal in this case). Definitely sounds like PF1 Shaman to me.

Granted, the familiar from the Witch is kind of just there, it's like that with the Witch regardless of dedications or other class options, so it's just added baggage for the sake of it.

[Temperans]

@BrolvethXXL

I was talking about the general themes the Shaman should generally cover. Not about the exact mechanics. I know very well that you are not copying the mechanics.

[BrolvethXXI]

Midnightoker wrote:

I actually worked on it with them, but I don't know what I can actually disclose and it was Dustin's architecture/design.

If you're doing your own imagining, I'll keep it to myself so as not to damage your creative process :)

Could you please explain what Dustin's architecture/design is? First time hearing it but high chance I have met it before

[BrolvethXXI]

Temperans wrote:

@BrolvethXXL

I was talking about the general themes the Shaman should generally cover. Not about the exact mechanics. I know very well that you are not copying the mechanics.

Oh, sorry then, I must have misunderstood it.

Thanks for what do you think is important to shaman

[Dustin Knight]

BrolvethXXI wrote:

Midnightoker wrote:

I actually worked on it with them, but I don't know what I can actually disclose and it was Dustin's architecture/design.

If you're doing your own imagining, I'll keep it to myself so as not to damage your creative process :)

Could you please explain what Dustin's architecture/design is? First time hearing it but high chance I have met it before

The shaman is a full occult or primal caster with focus points. It bonds with spirits it meets on its adventures, which the player can design by applying archetype feats to a themed spirit (each theme has its own focus spells, skill, and bonus spells; the PC can bond to more spirits as it earns levels). This let's a GM design the spirits if they want them to be a big part of the campaign; Want an ancestor who was a Lion Blade? Take ancestor spirit and lion blade dedication. A fire spirit who manifests as a primal-caster? Take druid multiclass dedication on a fire spirit.

When a shaman enters a trance, it manifests the bonded spirit. While manifested, a shaman uses the spirit's granted spells instead of its own, gains the spirit's archetype feats, and can activate a number of special abilities based on the shaman's three paths and class feats.

Animist Shamans have to hold an item to manifest their spirit, but can switch between spirits without a penalty. Mediums have a harder time switching between spirits, but since they are being possessed its hard for them to get hit by mental effects. Conduit druids drop a conduit in a specific square, which makes the area around the conduit the spirit's "domain", letting its focus spells hit all enemies or all allies in the domain instead of only one target. All the focus 1 spells grant a "curse" or "blessing", so work great for allies or against enemies.

[vagrant-poet]

Dustin Knight wrote:

BrolvethXXI wrote:

Midnightoker wrote:

I actually worked on it with them, but I don't know what I can actually disclose and it was Dustin's architecture/design.

If you're doing your own imagining, I'll keep it to myself so as not to damage your creative process :)

Could you please explain what Dustin's architecture/design is? First time hearing it but high chance I have met it before

The shaman is a full occult or primal caster with focus points. It bonds with spirits it meets on its adventures, which the player can design by applying archetype feats to a themed spirit (each theme has its own focus spells, skill, and bonus spells; the PC can bond to more spirits as it earns levels). This let's a GM design the spirits if they want them to be a big part of the campaign; Want an ancestor who was a Lion Blade? Take ancestor spirit and lion blade dedication. A fire spirit who manifests as a primal-caster? Take druid multiclass dedication on a fire spirit.

When a shaman enters a trance, it manifests the bonded spirit. While manifested, a shaman uses the spirit's granted spells instead of its own, gains the spirit's archetype feats, and can activate a number of special abilities based on the shaman's three paths and class feats.

Animist Shamans have to hold an item to manifest their spirit, but can switch between spirits without a penalty. Mediums have a harder time switching between spirits, but since they are being possessed its hard for them to get hit by mental effects. Conduit druids drop a conduit in a specific square, which makes the area around the conduit the spirit's "domain", letting its focus spells hit all enemies or all allies in the domain instead of only one target. All the focus 1 spells grant a "curse" or "blessing", so work great for allies or against enemies.

It's getting released in it's onw pdf right? When is that happening? Next year when the KS delivers?

[RaptorJesues]

an inquisitor

[Grankless]

That class sounds great, Dustin (and glad to hear Mid worked on it too!). I think I didn't realize that Boricubos had a class in it, suddenly I regret not backing it. :P (I don't usually go for bestiaries as I rarely make my own adventures).

[Tonya Woldridge]

Moved from PF2-General Discussion to PF2-Homebrew.

[Midnightoker]

Grankless wrote:

That class sounds great, Dustin (and glad to hear Mid worked on it too!). I think I didn't realize that Boricubos had a class in it, suddenly I regret not backing it. :P (I don't usually go for bestiaries as I rarely make my own adventures).

Fwiw the monsters in that book are crazy cool.

I learned so much about Latin American culture and mythology in working on it and there's some crazy cool stuff I ended up reading about.

One of the creatures in there is basically the God snake from the movie Anaconda (but like... way cooler). Or like the Tlahuelpuchi, which are sort of Mexican vampires (which literally less than 50 years ago was the last time one was supposedly killed in the Mexican city most reverent of them).

Generally, I'm with you on monster books with some exceptions, but they are dripping with coolness.

There's also ancestry options in the book too if I recall right!

PS thank you for the kind words <3

[Dustin Knight]

vagrant-poet wrote:

Dustin Knight wrote:

BrolvethXXI wrote:

Midnightoker wrote:

I actually worked on it with them, but I don't know what I can actually disclose and it was Dustin's architecture/design.

If you're doing your own imagining, I'll keep it to myself so as not to damage your creative process :)

Could you please explain what Dustin's architecture/design is? First time hearing it but high chance I have met it before

The shaman is a full occult or primal caster with focus points. It bonds with spirits it meets on its adventures, which the player can design by applying archetype feats to a themed spirit (each theme has its own focus spells, skill, and bonus spells; the PC can bond to more spirits as it earns levels). This let's a GM design the spirits if they want them to be a big part of the campaign; Want an ancestor who was a Lion Blade? Take ancestor spirit and lion blade dedication. A fire spirit who manifests as a primal-caster? Take druid multiclass dedication on a fire spirit.

When a shaman enters a trance, it manifests the bonded spirit. While manifested, a shaman uses the spirit's granted spells instead of its own, gains the spirit's archetype feats, and can activate a number of special abilities based on the shaman's three paths and class feats.

Animist Shamans have to hold an item to manifest their spirit, but can switch between spirits without a penalty. Mediums have a harder time switching between spirits, but since they are being possessed its hard for them to get hit by mental effects. Conduit druids drop a conduit in a specific square, which makes the area around the conduit the spirit's "domain", letting its focus spells hit all enemies or all allies in the domain instead of only one target. All the focus 1 spells grant a "curse" or "blessing", so work great for allies or against enemies.

It's getting released in it's onw pdf right? When is that happening? Next year when the KS delivers?

The KS sent out a "beta document" of Boricubos recently that previews some of the class. I don't know when the final Boricubos book is being released, but the Bestiary PDF was sent out recently to backers.

The Shaman will also be released as its own product, but I'm not sure when. I will post updates here when I get them; I finished all my writing for the class and submitted it last week, but editing and layout does take time!

If it's like the other Legendary (Class) products, it should be available on Drive Thru, the Legendary Games website, Amazon, etc... as a PDF and print!