We're in a golden age of AP variety.

[Deriven Firelion]

AlastarOG wrote:

CorvusMask wrote:

My experience as having 1e high level burn out as result of wrath plus several other high level campaigns and my 2e jade regent conversion is that lot parts of 1e really do work better in 2e x'D Including mass mook encounters oddly enough (it's mostly because of action economy feeling more dynamic)

Agreed,

I'm reading wrath of the righteous right now with the goal of translating it to pf2e.

Complete with creating the mythic system as a free archetype alternate variant.

Because it's a good story and less of a nightmare to run in 2e

Such a good story in Wrath of the Righteous. I hope they update that for 2E with mythic rules. It was such a wasted opportunity when the mythic rules were too over the top to run.

[TriOmegaZero]

I should start up the WotR game while we get through our other APs. Wrath has been on our list for awhile. I suppose I should start with Kingmaker first to not spoil more than I already have.

[Ian G]

I should note that Wrath's story in tabletop looks fine, just not as crazy good as the CRPG. And the CRPG handles the mythic system MUCH better, they all feel unique (and Angel is a straight-up power trip without feeling unfair).

[CorvusMask]

Ian G wrote:

I should note that Wrath's story in tabletop looks fine, just not as crazy good as the CRPG. And the CRPG handles the mythic system MUCH better, they all feel unique (and Angel is a straight-up power trip without feeling unfair).

I mean, I would argue that lot of aspects of CRPG version wouldn't work in Tabletop format.

Besides those aspects, the wrath CRPG did have power of hindsight such as introducing the herald as character much earlier than AP did x'D

[Ian G]

CorvusMask wrote:

Ian G wrote:

I should note that Wrath's story in tabletop looks fine, just not as crazy good as the CRPG. And the CRPG handles the mythic system MUCH better, they all feel unique (and Angel is a straight-up power trip without feeling unfair).

I mean, I would argue that lot of aspects of CRPG version wouldn't work in Tabletop format.

Besides those aspects, the wrath CRPG did have power of hindsight such as introducing the herald as character much earlier than AP did x'D

Also it makes Iomedae less of a total jerk! I mean she's still full of it but not as mean about it.

[Perpdepog]

CorvusMask wrote:

My experience as having 1e high level burn out as result of wrath plus several other high level campaigns and my 2e jade regent conversion is that lot parts of 1e really do work better in 2e x'D Including mass mook encounters oddly enough (it's mostly because of action economy feeling more dynamic)

I totally didn't get the concept of 1E burnout like this until just recently, mostly because I was approaching it as a player, and one who didn't get to be high level terribly often, but I am starting to see it now as a GM. The low-grade anxiety I get every time a big fight comes up gets to me after a while, wondering if things are balanced correctly and if I am going to have to grab more content on the fly because the party roflstomped stuff I'd researched and planned as a session's content, or if something is going to turn out to be overtuned and I'll have to scramble in the other direction to make sure the party doesn't TPK.

I could also be noticing it particularly strongly because the game I am GMing is Tyrant's Grasp, which is pretty tough for a campaign whose premise includes the semi-requirement that the same bunch of characters are likely to make it from beginning to end.

Ours did not do that.

[CorvusMask]

;D Let's just say my Iron Gods experience has lot of "oh I have cool idea, I'll spend hours on homebrewing new mook type/updating this baddie... Oh they died in single round before they got chance to act"

It's gotten to the point where I'm just too tired to create caster enemies from scratch for high levels in 1e. I need mah break x'D

(I do think 1e burnout is possible on player side though when you play with groups that have heavy buffing policies. Because geezus just hearing them list every buff they have sounds tiring x'D)

There is also that when you have run Rise of the Runelords, Curse of the Crimson Throne, Iron Gods, Strange Aeons, Ruins of Azlant, four books of Council of Thieves and Wrath of the Righteous (and played Reign of Winter and Kingmaker to completion) in weekly games over course of about 5 years, you really really reaaaaaaaaaally start being intimate with 1e's faults.

Like, I'm not sure even why it is, but something about nature of 1e action economy makes turns play more slowly than 2e's three action economy. So its not just case of 2e having each character's round feel more dynamic, it also feels less slow somehow.

...Actually wait I do know what it is, its full attacks(the experience of counting how much damage player dealt with 7 attacks through opponent's dr), buffs and other various "ah but because I hit you with all my attacks, my attack skips opponent's dr" type conditional abilities ;P Eventually in 1e you can't just play rounds without going over through what ability triggered another ability *insert yugioh trap card meme here*

[Ian G]

CorvusMask wrote:

;D Let's just say my Iron Gods experience has lot of "oh I have cool idea, I'll spend hours on homebrewing new mook type/updating this baddie... Oh they died in single round before they got chance to act"

It's gotten to the point where I'm just too tired to create caster enemies from scratch for high levels in 1e. I need mah break x'D

(I do think 1e burnout is possible on player side though when you play with groups that have heavy buffing policies. Because geezus just hearing them list every buff they have sounds tiring x'D)

There is also that when you have run Rise of the Runelords, Curse of the Crimson Throne, Iron Gods, Strange Aeons, Ruins of Azlant, four books of Council of Thieves and Wrath of the Righteous (and played Reign of Winter and Kingmaker to completion) in weekly games over course of about 5 years, you really really reaaaaaaaaaally start being intimate with 1e's faults.

Like, I'm not sure even why it is, but something about nature of 1e action economy makes turns play more slowly than 2e's three action economy. So its not just case of 2e having each character's round feel more dynamic, it also feels less slow somehow.

...Actually wait I do know what it is, its full attacks(the experience of counting how much damage player dealt with 7 attacks through opponent's dr), buffs and other various "ah but because I hit you with all my attacks, my attack skips opponent's dr" type conditional abilities ;P Eventually in 1e you can't just play rounds without going over through what ability triggered another ability *insert yugioh trap card meme here*

My Hell's Rebels party DEFINITELY got tired of opportunity attacks and the finicky crunch. The experience has sold me on the old e6 game style for 3.xx--the d20 chassis was never properly playtested past about level 10, and the skills system is pretty clunky. Even in PF 1e there are some remaining issues with this.

On the flip side, my Saturday party loves 1e because of the customization (which one player, formerly DM, is using to break the game through a min-maxed wizard build), which no other game but its immediate predecessor can really match.

[Andru C Watkins]

I like the offerings that 2E has for APs but I would like to also experience areas explored in previous APs during 1E. 2E is my first deep dive into Pathfinder and I kind of like it over the previous edition but I feel like I kind of missed out in some that looked fun like Skull and Shackles, Carrion Crown, Reign of Winter, Mummies Mask, Giantslayer, and Strange Aeons. I don’t know if remakes for the current edition is doable but I would for sure like either 3 book AP sequels or non-related adventures in the areas those APs covered.

[keftiu]

Andru C Watkins wrote:

I like the offerings that 2E has for APs but I would like to also experience areas explored in previous APs during 1E. 2E is my first deep dive into Pathfinder and I kind of like it over the previous edition but I feel like I kind of missed out in some that looked fun like Skull and Shackles, Carrion Crown, Reign of Winter, Mummies Mask, Giantslayer, and Strange Aeons. I don’t know if remakes for the current edition is doable but I would for sure like either 3 book AP sequels or non-related adventures in the areas those APs covered.

I'm personally pretty cool on sequels to 1e APs - the parts of the setting beyond Avistan are much more interesting to me - but an Iron Gods sequel would make me giddy.

[Perpdepog]

There is also a Discord devoted to converting all the 1E adventure paths into 2E, though I don't know where to link it, sorry.

[Ian G]

Perpdepog wrote:

There is also a Discord devoted to converting all the 1E adventure paths into 2E, though I don't know where to link it, sorry.

If you figure it out, PLEASE link me, I would love an excuse to do 2e with my burned-out-on-1e college friends. Maybe Runelords or Crimson Throne.

[SOLDIER-1st]

I believe this is the server referenced.

[Ian G]

SOLDIER-1st wrote:

I believe this is the server referenced.

Thank you!!!!!

[keftiu]

Quest for the Frozen Flame wraps up this month, so I wanted to check back in - how do folks feel about the first AP of 2022?

[NECR0G1ANT]

keftiu wrote:

Quest for the Frozen Flame wraps up this month, so I wanted to check back in - how do folks feel about the first AP of 2022?

I've played a couple sessions. The scope is small, the hook is engaging, and no combat has been difficult. Very early impressions are positive.

[willfromamerica]

Frozen Flame is the first 2e AP I’ve PLAYED in rather than GMed, and even though we’re only on chapter 2 I think it’s nothing like anything else I’ve seen this edition. Very captivating setting and engaging NPCs, and I can’t wait to see where the story goes.

[Harles]

It's strange, but I don't feel comfortable running APs like "Fists of the Ruby Phoenix" or "Strength of Thousands" because of the locales. I don't think I would be able to depict these people modelled on real world cultures in a respectful way, and I fear the game would devolve into harmful stereotypes amongst the players.
Does anyone else feel this way?
I just scoot away from these and think "this isn't intended for me" or the audience of my group.
So I'm still waiting for that AP that fits the bill for us.

[keftiu]

Harles wrote:

It's strange, but I don't feel comfortable running APs like "Fists of the Ruby Phoenix" or "Strength of Thousands" because of the locales. I don't think I would be able to depict these people modelled on real world cultures in a respectful way, and I fear the game would devolve into harmful stereotypes amongst the players.

Does anyone else feel this way?
I just scoot away from these and think "this isn't intended for me" or the audience of my group.
So I'm still waiting for that AP that fits the bill for us.

I think any group worth playing in should be capable of having an adult conversation about not straying into stereotypes, personally. Both APs give you plenty of material to characterize the characters and locales appropriately - things aren’t going to get offensive unless someone decides to. Acting like diverse stories are only for people who look like the folks between the covers isn’t doing anyone any good.

Strength of Thousands is well worth a read, IMO!

[The Raven Black]

For Strength of Thousands, the Mwangi Expanse setting book will help get in the proper mood too.

[Deriven Firelion]

Harles wrote:

It's strange, but I don't feel comfortable running APs like "Fists of the Ruby Phoenix" or "Strength of Thousands" because of the locales. I don't think I would be able to depict these people modelled on real world cultures in a respectful way, and I fear the game would devolve into harmful stereotypes amongst the players.

Does anyone else feel this way?
I just scoot away from these and think "this isn't intended for me" or the audience of my group.
So I'm still waiting for that AP that fits the bill for us.

I'm not sure what stereotypes I would use. I tend to play characters like humans. If there is some cultural teaching, then I will have it shape the responses. Having associated with lots of different folks from around the world, there aren't huge differences unless there is a cultural teaching.

Are you saying you would make them like some movie character or something? I'm not quite getting what you mean.

What harmful stereotype would you be using? Like your players would start doing stupid accents or something? That just seems strange.

[willfromamerica]

Harles wrote:

It's strange, but I don't feel comfortable running APs like "Fists of the Ruby Phoenix" or "Strength of Thousands" because of the locales. I don't think I would be able to depict these people modelled on real world cultures in a respectful way, and I fear the game would devolve into harmful stereotypes amongst the players.

Does anyone else feel this way?
I just scoot away from these and think "this isn't intended for me" or the audience of my group.
So I'm still waiting for that AP that fits the bill for us.

I second what keftiu and TRB said, but I wanted to add that I definitely sympathize with your concerns, as I had the same worry before I started running Strength of Thousands. My best advice is to have extensive conversations about sensitivities before playing. I find that if all of the PCs are from the region in question, there’s no reason to treat any part of the setting as foreign or strange, which greatly lessens the chance of negative stereotypes popping up.

[Harles]

keftiu wrote:

I think any group worth playing in should be capable of having an adult conversation about not straying into stereotypes, personally. Both APs give you plenty of material to characterize the characters and locales appropriately - things aren’t going to get offensive unless someone decides to. Acting like diverse stories are only for people who look like the folks between the covers isn’t doing anyone any good.

Strength of Thousands is well worth a read, IMO!

So my history with Pathfinder has basically been I got into 1e to keep playing a version of 3.5, but I dropped out after a couple years for other systems. 2e brought me in as a curiosity, but I'm still in a "wait and see" to get a game together that really connects with me.

I've had almost no exposure to Golarion. In general, I'm not especially great at conveying large, detailed settings whether they're Faerun, Golarion, or Dark Sun. I just don't have a mind for it - I almost instantly forget every historical detail and proper name. Therefore, much of the setting I present in APs is painted with a very broad brush. When that happens, well, that's when you run the risk of getting stereotypes. And I don't want to be that guy.
I know the writers, artists, and Paizo have gone to great lengths to do right by the inspirational cultures. I'm afraid that I won't have it in me to do the same.

[keftiu]

I’m… really struggling to read your comment as anything other than “I don’t have it in me to not roleplay racist stereotypes,” if I’m being honest.

[Harles]

keftiu wrote:

I’m… really struggling to read your comment as anything other than “I don’t have it in me to not roleplay racist stereotypes,” if I’m being honest.

I'm sorry that's your interpretation of my comment and how I am coming across to you.

I hope that being nervous about trying to depict a culture (based on real cultures) very different than my own doesn't make me racist.

[PossibleCabbage]

I mean, the Magaambya and the Ruby Phoenix are things that people from literally every corner of Golarion will travel to because of their prestige and fame. So as long as you keep in mind that people are people, no matter where they are from or what color their skin is, you're going to be fine.

Plus it's not like Strength of Thousands stays in one place for very long- the Fifth Book takes place on an entirely different planet!

[Harles]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean, the Magaambya and the Ruby Phoenix are things that people from literally every corner of Golarion will travel to because of their prestige and fame. So as long as you keep in mind that people are people, no matter where they are from or what color their skin is, you're going to be fine.

Plus it's not like Strength of Thousands stays in one place for very long- the Fifth Book takes place on an entirely different planet!

Thanks. That helps. I just don't think I could make up "on the fly" stuff that would be authentic and good.

[PossibleCabbage]

"Martial Arts Tournament" should be a thing that exists close enough to the public consciousness that it should be easy to steal from. You may not have seen "Master of the Flying Guillotine" but lots of people have seen "Enter the Dragon" or played "Street Fighter II"

I think the more important feel to cultivate in Strength of Thousands is "Magical Grad school" moreso than "Fantasy Africa" keeping in mind that Magaambya is closer to what a postgraduate education *should* be like rather than what it's actually like.

[Deriven Firelion]

Harles wrote:

keftiu wrote:

I’m… really struggling to read your comment as anything other than “I don’t have it in me to not roleplay racist stereotypes,” if I’m being honest.

I'm sorry that's your interpretation of my comment and how I am coming across to you.

I hope that being nervous about trying to depict a culture (based on real cultures) very different than my own doesn't make me racist.

Medieval Europe and Viking culture are very different than your own too. Fantasy cultures are all very different from modern culture. You're kind of always doing a sort of pseudo-representation of any culture something is based on.

Normally you play the NPCs with individual personalities and goals, toss in a few key cultural elements listed, and roll with it. That's what I do. Read some of the world book. Play up some cultural element that might be important. Play all the NPCs like they were people with individual personalities and goals. Seems easy.