Im building a Phantom Blade for a gestalt game coming up, and Im curious on a few class mechanics.
Phantom Weapon states it works similarly to a bladebound magus' Black Blade. Does this mean it must be a 1h weapon, or can it actually be a double bladed sword? Whip? anything a Black Blade cant be I guess is the question.
If yes, does this mean a double bladed Phantom Blade would have the weapon enhancement on both ends of the blade?
How long does a blade stay manifested? Combat? Until you drop it? Until you will it away?
The Phantom Blade is also restricted to the magus spells cast from magus spell slots while using Spell Combat.
Though I'm sure this won't be an issue in a home game.
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Check out the dev comments.
A phantom blade can be any weapon with which you are proficient, but not all weapons play nice with Spell Combat and spellstrike.
It acts like a phantom, so it should stay in ectoplasmic form unless you harbor it in your consciousness.
So a phantom blade CAN be a double bladed sword but I would still require a free hand to cast spells. As removing a hand is a free action and applying a hand a free action is there an issue casting and fighting with a double weapon?
Also seeing a phantom blade applies it's enchant to "the phantom blade" does the enchant effect both ends?
So a phantom blade CAN be a double bladed sword but I would still require a free hand to cast spells. As removing a hand is a free action and applying a hand a free action is there an issue casting and fighting with a double weapon?
Spell Combat is a full-round action that requires a free hand and a light or one-handed weapon in the other hand.
All spells are cast and all attacks are rendered as a part of the full-round action Spell Combat.
Not only can you not change grip on your weapon while using spell combat, you cannot even hold a two-handed weapon in one hand.
To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty).
In another thread I have regarding my possible Phantom Blade character an option came up and Im curious if it would work.
Phantom Blades have under Phantom Weapon "A phantom blade with this class feature can’t have a phantom of any kind, even from another class."
Now if a Phantom Blade multi-classes into Bloodrager and selects ID Rager as an archetype he gains Phantom like abilities, but doesnt give him a phantom, as he IS a phantom.
Long and short of it... does this pairing actually work? Can you be a Phantom Blade, and an ID rager and keep all your class features?
Id rager has a class skill that allows casting psychic magic while raging tho...
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I think you're misreading that. There would normally be two different things preventing a bloodrager from casting psychic spells:
1) Nobody can casts spells while raging unless they have an ability saying so. For Bloodragers this is the Bloodcasting ability, that allows only bloodrager spells to be cast while in bloodrage. Phantom Blade doesn't change this ability.
2) Being in rage would normally prevent you from satisfying emotional components, but the Id Rager is allowed to do that.
So while raging the Id Rager can cast psychic spells from his Bloodrager list just fine, but not from the Phantom Blade.
{Consolidated 4 posts into 1.}
So a phantom blade CAN be a double bladed sword but I would still require a free hand to cast spells. As removing a hand is a free action and applying a hand a free action is there an issue casting and fighting with a double weapon?spell combat counts as two-weapon fighting but the offhand attack is your spell you are casting so even though you can remove 1 hand from your weapon you can't attack with it while the hand is removed so you can't use spell combat with it. and even if you could you would of used your mainhand and offhand attacks already
Even Mindblade Magus (which is also an occult caster) needs specific abilities to do that, and only gets these at high levels (non-double two-handed at very high level).
cant remember the name of it but there's a feat that allows you to use other classes spells while in a bloodrage
Mad Magic. Makes a Bloodrager dip an appealing martial dip for a caster. Note that you can get Mad Magic as a Barbarian, but then you have to blow 2 Rage Powers on Moment of Clarity (Calm Stance for Unchained Barbarian) and Perfect Clarity; admittedly it makes Moment of Clarity or Calm Stance actually somewhat decent, but that's still an awfully high tax and can't be gotten with a 1 level dip like on Bloodrager.
I think you're misreading that. There would normally be two different things preventing a bloodrager from casting psychic spells:
1) Nobody can casts spells while raging unless they have an ability saying so. For Bloodragers this is the Bloodcasting ability, that allows only bloodrager spells to be cast while in bloodrage. Phantom Blade doesn't change this ability.
2) Being in rage would normally prevent you from satisfying emotional components, but the Id Rager is allowed to do that.
So while raging the Id Rager can cast psychic spells from his Bloodrager list just fine, but not from the Phantom Blade.
well since the archetype specifically says you can cast psychic spells then yes he can. it does not say he can cast bloodrager spells but simply psychic spells which does not cut out psychic spells from other classes
Atavistic Caster: At 4th level, a id rager’s bloodrager spells are treated as psychic magic (Occult Adventures 144). The bloodrager’s bloodrage does not prevent him from casting spells with emotional components, and he is considered to be a psychic spellcaster for the purposes of prerequisites (such as for the prerequisites of psychic duels and occult skill unlocks). This ability alters the bloodrager’s spellcasting and replaces eschew materials.
Arguably, even with Atavistic Caster, you would still need Mad Magic to cast non-Bloodrager spells (Occult or otherwise) while in Bloodrage, since this ability specifically says Bloodrager spells.
The bloodrager’s bloodrage does not prevent him from casting spells with emotional components
it does not say bloodrager spells
the only part that mentions bloodrager spells is that they now count as psychic
Rules As Written, that's probably correct, but given that it says Bloodrager spells just before, and given that Mad Magic is required to cast spells more generally while in Rage/Bloodrage Rules As Intended probably did not mean to let Id Ragers bypass the need for Mad Magic to cast non-Bloodrager spells while in Rage.
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Reading over the class and archetype I'd say you can't cast non-Bloodrager spells while Bloodraging without something like Mad Magic since the Bloodrager's Spellcasting (which Atavistic Caster modifies) and Blood Casting (which allows Bloodragers to cast Bloodrager spells while raging) are two different abilities.
Atavistic Caster only modifies Spellcasting, it doesn't interact at all with Blood Casting.
The wording in Atavistic Caster was to allow Id Ragers to cast their spells with Emotional components while Raging, and also future proofing I guess for if they later picked up Mad Magic or something in that vein.
Anyone have input or thoughts on having a phantom blade and "being a phantom"? Why bring a phantom I mean ID Ravers gain phantom abilities but never gain an actual phantom.
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As I mentioned in the other thread, I think it works. Here's the relevant wording:
A phantom blade begins play with an ectoplasmic sentient weapon known as a phantom weapon whose weapon type is chosen by the phantom blade. The weapon type must be one with which the phantom blade is proficient. A phantom weapon functions similarly to the black blade of the bladebound magus archetype except as noted on the Phantom Weapon Progression table. A phantom blade with this class feature can’t have a phantom of any kind, even from another class.
When the id rager enters a bloodrage, he gains additional powers as if he were a phantom with the emotional focus he selected as his atavistic focus. He is considered to be both a phantom and a spiritualist for the purposes of abilities whose effect references both a phantom and a spiritualist, such as a dedication phantom’s dutiful strike, and treats his bloodrager level as both his spiritualist level and his phantom Hit Dice when determining abilities and save DCs.
Being a phantom is not the same thing as having a phantom - and in fact you're not even really a phantom, you're just treated as a phantom for the purposes of specific abilities.
Is this a loophole? I don't think so. There are two reasons I can think of for banning a phantom from another class, and both of them are related to the idea that the phantom is something separate from the character. First, it could be a mirror to this restriction from the black blade:
A magus with this class feature cannot take the familiar magus arcana, and cannot have a familiar of any kind, even from another class.
Thematically, the bond with a sentient weapon is getting in the way of forming a bond with a creature. Alternatively, it could be a balancing factor related to action economy. Spell combat greatly increases your action economy. So does having a battle companion like a phantom. Having both might be considered OP. However, gaining the abilities of a phantom does not give you an action economy advantage - it's not even that powerful compared to the bloodline abilities the Id Rager gives up.
And on casting and raging:
2) Being in rage would normally prevent you from satisfying emotional components
I don't think this is actually true. Only non-harmless emotion effects prevent you from using emotion components, and as a personal buff Bloodrage should be considered harmless.
A psychic spellcaster marshals her desire in order to focus and release the spell’s energy. It is impossible to cast a spell with an emotion component while the spellcaster is under the influence of a non-harmless effect with the emotion or fear descriptors.
The text in Id Rager regarding using emotion components in bloodrage might be reminder/clarifying text, or just an author who was unclear on the rules for emotion components.
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And on casting and raging:
2) Being in rage would normally prevent you from
satisfying emotional componentsI don't think this is actually true. Only non-harmless emotion effects prevent you from using emotion components, and as a personal buff Bloodrage should be considered harmless.
A psychic spellcaster marshals her desire in order to focus and release the spell’s energy. It is impossible to cast a spell with an emotion component while the spellcaster is under the influence of a non-harmless effect with the emotion or fear descriptors.
The text in Id Rager regarding using emotion components in bloodrage might be reminder/clarifying text, or just an author who was unclear on the rules for emotion components.
Well, maybe. Let's look at some spells:
Mantle of Calm: "Any creature affected by a rage effect (barbarian’s rage, bloodrager’s bloodrage, blood rage monster ability, rage spell, skald’s inspired rage raging song, and so on)"
Rage: "The effect is otherwise identical with a barbarian's rage except that the subjects aren't fatigued at the end of the rage."
Unbreakable Heart: "mind-affecting effects that rely on negative emotions (such as crushing despair, rage, or fear effects)"
Unliving Rage: This spell functions as rage, except it affects only undead creatures and bolsters them with necromantic energy rather than emotion. Each affected creature gains a +2 profane bonus to Strength and Charisma, a +1 profane bonus on Will saves, and a –2 penalty to AC. The effect is otherwise identical to a barbarian’s rage.
What we're seeing is a lot of consensus that the Rage spell and barbarian rage are almost the same thing, except for some differences called out explicitly.
But the Rage spell is not harmless. And Unbreakable Heart refers to it as a negative emotion, in a list of other things that all prohibit emotion components.
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So yeah, that's not rock-solid evidence, but I think it does point to raging being a bad emotional state, that would normally make emotional components impossible.
The Id Rager gets to ignore that because obviously bloodrager spells are powered by rage, not clouded by it. But your multi-class dip? Well that other class probably requires zen-like composure...
@Ascalaphus
So your saying class features from one class that specifically call out a certain defined situation do not reflect on other classes that can meet those same requirements?
Atavistic Caster allows for the casting of of spells with emotional components while raging. it doesn't call out Bloodrager spells, it specifically states Emotional Component spells.
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I agree there's room for interpretation on whether normal Bloodrage prevents using emotion components with Mad Magic.
Emotion components don't require calm - Calm Emotions will prevent you from providing emotion components, since it is a non-harmless emotion effect.
It's also not universally about whether the emotion is positive or negative - Euphoric Tranquility is a non-harmless emotion effect.
It's about whether the effect is considered harmless.
I think that the big, relevant difference between the Rage spell and bloodrage is that Bloodrage is something you do to yourself. You can't really call the Rage spell harmless when it could just as easily be cast on a wizard (making them near-helpless) as on a fighter (making them a better fighter). But as a bloodrager the rage is your best friend. And with the Mad Magic feat you're looking at a character that has specifically trained to have enough control of their rage that it doesn't interfere with multi-class spellcasting.
The lack of a (harmless) tag on the Rage spell could also be considered a way in which it explicitly differs from bloodrage - in the same way that Polymorph Any Object doesn't have the (harmless) tag, but it emulates Greater Polymorph, which does. Interestingly, Greater Polymorph specifically affects willing creatures - meaning, like bloodrage and unlike the Rage spell, it's not something you can use as a debuff.
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Yes, whether Mad Magic is required is not the question.
The question is whether Mad Magic is sufficient to allow a bloodrager to cast spells from a psychic class (with emotion components).
And if not, whether Mad Magic (cast spells from another class) + Id Rager (cast spells with emotion components) allows a bloodrager to cast psychic spells from a non-bloodrager class.
EDIT: And if yes, the third question is whether a Phantom Blade can multiclass with Id Rager in the first place because of restrictions on "having" a phantom.
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That FAQ has absolutely nothing to do with Bloodragers and was talking about something comepletely different. It was talking about getting +1 bonuses to certain spells and the like, things granted by the Sorcerer's Bloodline Arcana.
That being said the part about emotional components I agree with, however the Id Rager would still require Mad Magic in order to cast non-Bloodrager spells while Bloodraging.
Anyone want to attempt the phantom blade and id rager classes even working as one prevents the character from having a phantom and the other counts the character as a phantom.
It would work just fine, since you just count as a Phantom for certain abilities, you're not actually one.
Anyone else for if they work or not? Just gathering as much info before i move forward on a character build.
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The lack of a (harmless) tag on the Rage spell could also be considered a way in which it explicitly differs from bloodrage - in the same way that Polymorph Any Object doesn't have the (harmless) tag, but it emulates Greater Polymorph, which does. Interestingly, Greater Polymorph specifically affects willing creatures - meaning, like bloodrage and unlike the Rage spell, it's not something you can use as a debuff.
The Rage spell only targets willing creatures, but isn't harmless; it doesn't allow a saving throw and generally only spells that allow saves can get the harmless tag.
You could say "things aren't harmless unless they say they are". Not everything you can do to yourself voluntarily is harmless.
Also note that not all spells have emotional/somatic components. Plausible Pseudonym created a list once, for the purposes of psychic casters who might find themselves under the influence of some awkward condition or another.
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The lack of a (harmless) tag on the Rage spell could also be considered a way in which it explicitly differs from bloodrage - in the same way that Polymorph Any Object doesn't have the (harmless) tag, but it emulates Greater Polymorph, which does. Interestingly, Greater Polymorph specifically affects willing creatures - meaning, like bloodrage and unlike the Rage spell, it's not something you can use as a debuff.The Rage spell only targets willing creatures, but isn't harmless; it doesn't allow a saving throw and generally only spells that allow saves can get the harmless tag.
You could say "things aren't harmless unless they say they are". Not everything you can do to yourself voluntarily is harmless.
I'd missed that in the targets line. I think I was thinking about that oracle revelation that can use Rage on unwilling targets.
That does make it more likely that bloodrage is intended to be non-harmless, though that still seems to me like a really counter-intuitive way to frame a base class's main buff, even if it does come with some downsides.
And I still think Mad Magic should be sufficient even if it doesn't specifically address emotion components, because the entire point of the feat is to allow multiclass spellcasting, and it seems arbitrary to exclude psychic spellcasters from that. It's not like it's eliminating the importance of emotion components since any other effect that would shut down a single-class psychic caster still applies.
Can a Phantom Blade select bastard sword as a Phantom Weapon without the Exotic Weapon Pro feat. Seeing they are proficient with Martial Weapons and a Bastard sword can be used as one with 2h's.
But they are classified as Exotics. In the Special they can be used 2h as a martial. Does the Class feature require both, one or the other, 2hing and calling it a martial. Which is the proper answer?
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The lack of a (harmless) tag on the Rage spell could also be considered a way in which it explicitly differs from bloodrage - in the same way that Polymorph Any Object doesn't have the (harmless) tag, but it emulates Greater Polymorph, which does. Interestingly, Greater Polymorph specifically affects willing creatures - meaning, like bloodrage and unlike the Rage spell, it's not something you can use as a debuff.The Rage spell only targets willing creatures, but isn't harmless; it doesn't allow a saving throw and generally only spells that allow saves can get the harmless tag.
You could say "things aren't harmless unless they say they are". Not everything you can do to yourself voluntarily is harmless.
I'd missed that in the targets line. I think I was thinking about that oracle revelation that can use Rage on unwilling targets.
That does make it more likely that bloodrage is intended to be non-harmless, though that still seems to me like a really counter-intuitive way to frame a base class's main buff, even if it does come with some downsides.
And I still think Mad Magic should be sufficient even if it doesn't specifically address emotion components, because the entire point of the feat is to allow multiclass spellcasting, and it seems arbitrary to exclude psychic spellcasters from that. It's not like it's eliminating the importance of emotion components since any other effect that would shut down a single-class psychic caster still applies.
The combination of Mad Magic and Atavistic Caster together would certainly work. What I was arguing against was the idea that Atavistic Caster on its own would be enough. My take was that Atavistic Caster is only intended to enable emotional components in rage, not to bypass the general rule stopping all spellcasting in rage (that's what Bloodcasting/Mad Magic is for).
I do think there's some crosstalk between authors about whether raging should normally prevent emotional components, I doubt everyone is one the same page about that.
So for example whether a psychic/regular bloodrager with Mad Magic could cast his psychic-emotion spells while raging.