Champion : Green Faith or Laws of Mortality

[Waldham]

Hello, is it possible to take the champion class with Green Faith or Laws of Mortality if there are no deity for these philosophies ?

Thanks for your future answer.

[HammerJack]

Nope

[Seisho]

Since Champions are per very definition >Divine< Champions the Laws of Mortality are pretty much at odds with the class.

The Green Faith seems like it could be compatible. Of course there are no Domains to Take. I would personally allow for a Green Faith Champion in my games, for most part it does not make much of a different.

But purely technically speaking the Green Faith is not a Deity that can grant Magic and so would not qualify.

[Cordell Kintner]

You must pick a Deity, not a Philosophy. From the Champion rules: "Champions are divine servants of a deity."

Pantheons are a separate thing, and are valid choices for Champions.

[Arachnofiend]

Green Faith has some really obvious overlap with Gozreh to the point where I've never really understood why the former exists. Being a Champion would be anathema to the Laws of Mortality (you'd be breaking "receive divine aid") so even if it was technically possible by the rules it still wouldn't be possible.

[YuriP]

In PFS you cannot. But in home games your GM may allow some philosophies I don't think this will create an exploit or a balance problem. But you still to see if that philosophie don't violate some champion anathema and vice versa.

[Tender Tendrils]

So with a deity, you have an external force (the deity) who gives you their magical power, and requiring you to keep to their code/anathemas to be able to use the power. If your interpretation of those codes/anathemas change, the deity still acts as a backstop to correct you.

With a philosophy, the power ostensibly just comes from your own belief in the philosophy, and the code/anathemas just come from what you personally believe. There is no external force keeping the code/anathemas and enforcing them. If your beliefs about what the codes/anathemas should be change (and people often change what they genuinely believe based on what is convenient for them) then there is no backstop to keep you on track.

A ranger is generally a better fit for the green faith (you don't get heavy armour, but that is honestly fitting as heavy armour isn't really a green faith thing), and the laws of mortality are explicitly about being against divine anything (including divine magic) - a champion of the laws of mortality is probably just a fighter or magus.

If you are looking to make something like the 5e nature paladin, just do a champion of Gozreh.

[The Raven Black]

Tender Tendrils wrote:

So with a deity, you have an external force (the deity) who gives you their magical power, and requiring you to keep to their code/anathemas to be able to use the power. If your interpretation of those codes/anathemas change, the deity still acts as a backstop to correct you.

With a philosophy, the power ostensibly just comes from your own belief in the philosophy, and the code/anathemas just come from what you personally believe. There is no external force keeping the code/anathemas and enforcing them. If your beliefs about what the codes/anathemas should be change (and people often change what they genuinely believe based on what is convenient for them) then there is no backstop to keep you on track.

A ranger is generally a better fit for the green faith (you don't get heavy armour, but that is honestly fitting as heavy armour isn't really a green faith thing), and the laws of mortality are explicitly about being against divine anything (including divine magic) - a champion of the laws of mortality is probably just a fighter or magus.

If you are looking to make something like the 5e nature paladin, just do a champion of Gozreh.

Though I agree with everything here, note that AFAIK you can easily change your deity, should your beliefs change.

Note also that the Champion's abilities are based on their alignment and not that of their deity. Which again raises the issue of the Neutral Champions. In case your CG Champion of Desna decides to stray from her teachings, they better go all the way to CE and choose a compatible new deity rather than end up in the Champion's limbo of CN.
Sorry, pet peeve of mine.

[Tender Tendrils]

The Raven Black wrote:

Tender Tendrils wrote:

So with a deity, you have an external force (the deity) who gives you their magical power, and requiring you to keep to their code/anathemas to be able to use the power. If your interpretation of those codes/anathemas change, the deity still acts as a backstop to correct you.

With a philosophy, the power ostensibly just comes from your own belief in the philosophy, and the code/anathemas just come from what you personally believe. There is no external force keeping the code/anathemas and enforcing them. If your beliefs about what the codes/anathemas should be change (and people often change what they genuinely believe based on what is convenient for them) then there is no backstop to keep you on track.

A ranger is generally a better fit for the green faith (you don't get heavy armour, but that is honestly fitting as heavy armour isn't really a green faith thing), and the laws of mortality are explicitly about being against divine anything (including divine magic) - a champion of the laws of mortality is probably just a fighter or magus.

If you are looking to make something like the 5e nature paladin, just do a champion of Gozreh.

Though I agree with everything here, note that AFAIK you can easily change your deity, should your beliefs change.

Note also that the Champion's abilities are based on their alignment and not that of their deity. Which again raises the issue of the Neutral Champions. In case your CG Champion of Desna decides to stray from her teachings, they better go all the way to CE and choose a compatible new deity rather than end up in the Champion's limbo of CN.
Sorry, pet peeve of mine.

Gods & Magic - Changing Faith wrote:

Whether dramatic or gradual, a character may have a crisis of faith or even a fall from grace. When this happens, the character is no longer able to use the spells, feats, and other class features tied to their now-lost faith. As reflects the genuine struggle within their soul, such characters may find themselves hobbled in their actions and interactions until they are restored to good standing via the atone ritual—or, in the case of a more complete break, until they retrain.

Retraining requires substantial downtime—in most cases, at least a month. A character who wishes to retrain into a different faith with similar concerns and domains requires less time to convert than a character moving into a radically divergent faith. Thus, a cleric of Grandmother Spider might move to the worship of Calistria with a month’s tutelage and service in one of her temples. However, that same cleric of Grandmother Spider could not so easily become a priest of Asmodeus, even though both deities share the trickery domain—their longstanding animosity is reflected in their diametrically opposed doctrines and cultures. Such a conversion is not impossible but could take several months of downtime or happen piecemeal over months of in-game development.

Champion - Deity and Cause wrote:

Champions are divine servants of a deity. Choose a deity to follow; your alignment must be one allowed for followers of your deity. Actions fundamentally opposed to your deity’s ideals or alignment are anathema to your faith. A few examples of acts that would be considered anathema appear in each deity’s entry. You and your GM determine whether other acts are anathema. You have one of the following causes. Your cause must match your alignment exactly. Your cause determines your champion’s reaction, grants you a devotion spell, and defines part of your champion’s code.

Champion - Champion's Code wrote:

Deities often add additional strictures (for instance, Torag’s champions can’t show mercy to enemies of their people, making it almost impossible for them to follow the redeemer cause)

It normally takes a month minimum for a cleric or champion to change to a different deity, and takes longer if the deities aren't extremely similar. Both classes lose all of their magical powers for duration of that time period.

A champion explicitly gets their powers from their deity, and are subject to the list of anathemas from that deity, which is added to their champions code.

edit: Note that Gods and Magic does present the option to change instantaneously, but says that that only happens in very specific circumstances where the new deity personally decides to send a divine emissary to invite the new convert into their service. The month+ of retraining is presented as the standard, with the divine intervention being a rare special thing.

[The Raven Black]

TBH one month of downtime is not what I consider a harsh cost.

And it can be easily waived by the GM if they feel the circumstances make sense.

EDIT- just saw your Edit ;-)

[Tender Tendrils]

The Raven Black wrote:

TBH one month of downtime is not what I consider a harsh cost.

And it can be easily waived by the GM if they feel the circumstances make sense.

EDIT- just saw your Edit ;-)

Aaah, so the issue is we have different definitions of what the "easily" in "easily change" means. That makes sense.

It also depends on the game you play in - I try to integrate lots of downtime periods into the games I GM, but none of the games I have been a player in have had GMs who do that. The most I ever seem to get is a couple days. I long wistfully for the day when I can play a character who actually gets given enough time to craft magic items.

[HumbleGamer]

Keep in ming that by raws, the only thing a champion would forgo by quitting his cause, alignment or embracing something like law of mortality is:

Quote:

If you stray from your alignment or violate your code of conduct, you lose your focus pool and divine ally until you demonstrate your repentance by conducting an atone ritual, but you keep any other champion abilities that don’t require those class features. If your alignment shifts but is still one allowed by your deity, your GM might let you retrain your cause while still following the same deity.

Which means you'll still be able to use:

- Champion Legendary AC
- Champion Reaction
- Picking champion that lacks the "divine" tag or that requires a specific divine ally ( For example, by lvl 14 you could still take "divine reflexes" which adds an extra champion reaction ).

Oaths are peculiar since they "add" something to your cause, but nothing prevents you from taking them, nor their improved versions.

...

To fix what you'll lack you can go with archetypes:

- Blessed one gives you a focus pool and lay on hand ( though you already have lay on hand, since the only thing you'd lose is your focus pool ).
- Ancestries give you the weapon critical specialization
- The chavalier archetipe gives you a mount ( eventually, even the beastmaster and animal trainer ones would work )

So, you can take any champion template you like and use it, leaving behind divine ally and the focus pool ( if you want one ).

[David Schwartz]

Arachnofiend wrote:

Green Faith has some really obvious overlap with Gozreh to the point where I've never really understood why the former exists.

[aside]Gozreh is worshiped by a theistic church, the Green Faith is a non-theistic fraternal order[/aside]

[Waldham]

Lamashtu
Follower Alignments CE

Is it possible for a champion to have Desecrator [Neutral Evil] cause or must champion have antipaladin cause with Lamashtu as deity ?

[Tender Tendrils]

The follower alignments list all of the allowed alignments for their followers - Lamashtu only allows CE, and CE champions can only be antipaladins.