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An interesting discussion. Let me try to summarize what people here agree on and then add my own perspective.
Agreed:
An improvised weapon gets a -2 to hit
An improvised weapon uses the Simple Weapon proficiency
The damage dice, type and any properties are up to the GM to decide
Contentious:
Can a martial (advanced) weapon be used as improvised weapon
Let me take a step back
Think about the following 2 scenarios
A character drops his own weapon - he comes across a) a dead peasant with a pitchfork or b) across his comrade who dropped a trident.
It seems utterly non-sensical to me to allow the pitchfork but to deny the trident to be used as an improvised weapon.
Everything else to me would be too bad to be true. Don't hamstring your players. Especially not in a tight situation.
That leaves the damage die and properties of the weapon.
One suggestion is - d8, thrown 5 feet
My opinion - and in my view the reason that Graystone gets so much pushback - this is too good to be true.
But I miss in the discussion the why it is too good to be true. So let us establish a baseline:
Simple Weapon:
Max damage one handed - d6
Max damage two handed - d8
Max damage thrown - d6
Main damage type - bludgeoning and piercing
These are not my own made up values - just a summary of best weapon of a certain type on page 280 CRB.
The only two d8 weapons here are the Longspear (2 handed) and the Staff (trait Two-handed d8). An improvised weapon should not be better than an existing weapon. A d8 would put it on par with the best (highest damage) thrown martial weapon - the trident (d8 as well).
So I'm sorry to say - d8 just looks too good to be true.
A fist is d4, I have seen a rock being used in a PFS scenario as d4. The blowgun is the only weapon in the CRB that is below d4. So this should give us a lower ceiling. below that and it becomes too bad to be true.
So how would I design the values of the improvised thrown warhammer?
Simple Weapon proficiency
-2 to hit as improvised weapon
Damage: d6 (same as a thrown club)
Range increment - 10 feet (same as a club)
Added restriction: max of 3 range increments (this item isn't designed to be thrown)
As GM you have to strike a balance:
a) do not penalize the players if they do something creative / something in urgent need and desperation
b) do not allow power creep and cheese
One suggestion is - d8, thrown 10 feet
If it's my suggestion, it was d8, thrown 5' [1/2 range increment of a club]. It's just that in the OP's case, 5' didn't really matter as they ignored the second increment: I felt a reduction in range fit better than a reduction damage. Now a pitchfork/trident to me seems better for throwing, so I'd drop the die and up the range so a d6 P and 10' range increment [vs the normal d8 and 20'] or to a d4 if it was B damage [throwing haft first].
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One suggestion is - d8, thrown 10 feetIf it's my suggestion, it was d8, thrown 5' [1/2 range increment of a club]. It's just that in the OP's case, 5' didn't really matter as they ignored the second increment: I felt a reduction in range fit better than a reduction damage. Now a pitchfork/trident to me seems better for throwing, so I'd drop the die and up the range so a d6 P and 10' range increment [vs the normal d8 and 20'] or to a d4 if it was B damage [throwing haft first].
It is the d8 that in my view is the problem. The only d8 simple weapons are two-handed.
Compare this to martial weapons: You have several d10 and d12 two handed weapons - but only a single d8 thrown weapon - the trident - which has zero other beneficial traits apart of thrown.
So your warhammer becomes better as a trident as you can use it to shove in close combat and now throw it as well. As you noted - the range wouldn't make a difference here.
This is my opinion: An improvised weapon should never ever be as good or even better as the best weapon in the CRB.
The best thrown simple weapon in the CRB is d6.
Edit:Yes - and I might have misinterpreted the range - Was just allowed to change it to 5 feet at 55 min
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I have often enough seen melee fighters with no ranged weapon at all - suddenly realising their stupidity if there is a flying creature.
Draw a light hammer - only possible if you have one.
It is surprising how many players don’t have backup.
I just did a PFS scenario with a barbarian player. Just ahead of the last fight there is a real possibility to lose the weapon.
If that happens then improvised weapon is the only option if you have no backup.
So the issue as GM is - find a balance between avoiding misuse vs nerfing a player while trying the best to stay as close to the rules as possible.
So your warhammer becomes better as a trident as you can use it to shove in close combat and now throw it as well. As you noted - the range wouldn't make a difference here.
I never said it'd keep shove when thrown.
The best thrown simple weapon in the CRB is d6.
While true, it ignores that the best thrown range is 20' [spear] and I find that an important distinction when I've set the improvised weapon at 5'.
This is my opinion: An improvised weapon should never ever be as good or even better as the best weapon in the CRB.
The best thrown simple weapon in the CRB is d6.
The best thrown 20' is d6: you make it thrown 5' and each 5' it's to hit drops off by 2. IMO this is a much greater tradeoff than d8 vs d6 as we're talking anything outside normal reach is taking a penalty in addition to the improvised weapon penalty. This is why I don't see the d8 thrown 5' as "better" than a d6 thrown 20': I actually see it as significantly worse at being a ranged weapon than the club or spear. You want to hit a flying creature 20' in the air, you're -8 to hit it where a spear is a normal hit or -2 for a club.
An interesting discussion. Let me try to summarize what people here agree on and then add my own perspective.
Agreed:
An improvised weapon gets a -2 to hit
An improvised weapon uses the Simple Weapon proficiency
The damage dice, type and any properties are up to the GM to decideContentious:
Can a martial (advanced) weapon be used as improvised weapon
Don't forget the weapon runes. Those are also in the list of contended rulings.
Think about the following 2 scenarios
A character drops his own weapon - he comes across a) a dead peasant with a pitchfork or b) across his comrade who dropped a trident.
So with runes, the scenario is a) a pitchfork, or b) a +2 greater striking trident.
It seems utterly non-sensical to me to allow the pitchfork but to deny the trident to be used as an improvised weapon.
Everything else to me would be too bad to be true. Don't hamstring your players. Especially not in a tight situation.
Agreed.
That leaves the damage die and properties of the weapon.
One suggestion is - d8, thrown 5 feet
My opinion - and in my view the reason that Graystone gets so much pushback - this is too good to be true.
It gets even more too good to be true when the difference is 1d6, at 10 ft range, and -2 penalty for improvised weapon vs. 3d8 (or even 3d4), at whatever range, and no penalty (because the +2 rune offsets the -2 penalty for improvised weapon).
Taking an on-level weapon that you don't have proficiency with and using it as an improvised weapon only compares badly to using an on-level weapon that you do have proficiency with. Not when compared to actually using an improvised weapon.
It gets even more too good to be true when the difference is 1d6, at 10 ft range, and -2 penalty for improvised weapon vs. 3d8 (or even 3d4), at whatever range, and no penalty (because the +2 rune offsets the -2 penalty for improvised weapon).
And a 5' range increment!!! *sigh*
Don't forget the weapon runes. Those are also in the list of contended rulings.
I still haven't seen anything that prevents runes from working on a simple weapon, which improvised weapons are clearly noted as. Hence it can be a) a +2 greater striking pitchfork, or b) a +2 greater striking trident.
Taking an on-level weapon that you don't have proficiency with and using it as an improvised weapon only compares badly to using an on-level weapon that you do have proficiency with. Not when compared to actually using an improvised weapon.
I don't see that as a bad thing: one has magic attached to it to make it better in combat. If I do the same to an improvised weapon, it does the same thing. So if I take a normal scepter and put some runes on it [it's a simple weapon as an improvised weapon after all] it performs the same as a marital weapon with the same runes with the same runes if I only have simple weapon proficiency. There isn't an inequity: you're just more likely to find runes on 'normal' weapons.
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Taking an on-level weapon that you don't have proficiency with and using it as an improvised weapon only compares badly to using an on-level weapon that you do have proficiency with. Not when compared to actually using an improvised weapon.
Well yeah. Using an improvised weapon doesn't compare badly to using an improvised weapon. That's... a fairly circular statement, but in both cases it compares pretty terribly to using a weapon normally.
Taking an on-level weapon that you don't have proficiency with and using it as an improvised weapon only compares badly to using an on-level weapon that you do have proficiency with. Not when compared to actually using an improvised weapon.Well yeah. Using an improvised weapon doesn't compare badly to using an improvised weapon. That's... a fairly circular statement, but in both cases it compares pretty terribly to using a weapon normally.
graystone keeps arguing that the runes on the weapons should still apply. If you allow that, then using a weapon as an improvised weapon is much, much better than using a regular item as an improvised weapon.
IMO that is too good to be true. An 'improvised' weapon (an item pressed into service as a weapon) should be equivalent to an improvised 'weapon' (a weapon being used without proficiency).
In the stock-standard game (where there is a fully stocked weapon shop and rune mart in every city, village, town, and hamlet you come across), using an improvised weapon is a bad idea. Because you always have access to an on-level weapon that you are proficient with. Making the improvised 'weapon' a worse choice isn't going to hurt anything.
But in other game settings where characters may not always have access to their ideal weapons, allowing improvised 'weapons' just causes problems. It effectively gives something roughly equivalent to martial weapon training for free.
How exactly does the +2 rune "offset" the -2 from the improvised weapon? Potency bonuses are factored into the encounter math. You'd still be hitting at -2.
Only when comparing to a weapon that you are proficient with.
Using a random item as an improvised weapon, you are rolling d20 + proficiency -2.
Using a weapon with a +2 rune as an improvised weapon and allowing the rune to work, you are rolling d20 + proficiency -2 +2. So that penalty from improvised weapon has been offset. It doesn't affect the outcome of the roll any more. You don't get the +2 bonus from the rune, but you didn't when you were using a random item either.
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Taking an on-level weapon that you don't have proficiency with and using it as an improvised weapon only compares badly to using an on-level weapon that you do have proficiency with. Not when compared to actually using an improvised weapon.Well yeah. Using an improvised weapon doesn't compare badly to using an improvised weapon. That's... a fairly circular statement, but in both cases it compares pretty terribly to using a weapon normally.graystone keeps arguing that the runes on the weapons should still apply. If you allow that, then using a weapon as an improvised weapon is much, much better than using a regular item as an improvised weapon.
IMO that is too good to be true. An 'improvised' weapon (an item pressed into service as a weapon) should be equivalent to an improvised 'weapon' (a weapon being used without proficiency).
In the stock-standard game (where there is a fully stocked weapon shop and rune mart in every city, village, town, and hamlet you come across), using an improvised weapon is a bad idea. Because you always have access to an on-level weapon that you are proficient with. Making the improvised 'weapon' a worse choice isn't going to hurt anything.
But in other game settings where characters may not always have access to their ideal weapons, allowing improvised 'weapons' just causes problems. It effectively gives something roughly equivalent to martial weapon training for free.
How exactly does the +2 rune "offset" the -2 from the improvised weapon? Potency bonuses are factored into the encounter math. You'd still be hitting at -2.Only when comparing to a weapon that you are proficient with.
Using a random item as an improvised weapon, you are rolling d20 + proficiency -2.
Using a weapon with a +2 rune as an improvised weapon and allowing the rune to work, you are rolling d20 + proficiency -2 +2. So that penalty from improvised weapon has been offset. It doesn't affect the...
Improvised weapons are simple weapons. If a weapon has runes, they apply when you Strike with it. So if you use a regular weapon as an improvised weapon, the runes are still on it, it doesn't become a different item. There is no rule that says "runes only apply under specific circumstances", barring weapons that need specific damage types. The only real ambiguity here is whether or not you can put runes on regular items. Though I don't really see a reason why you shouldn't let your players do that. If the fighter wants to intentionally nerf himself by running around with a +1 striking flaming mug that does d6 damage, sure.
It is not really surprising or weird that the 1000gp item is better than a random 1cp item, nor is there any reason for why they should be equivalent. And even the 1000gp item is still a simple weapon whose stats are completely at the discretion of the GM that also reduces your attack roll by 2. If the GM decides to give the improvised weapon martial weapon stats instead of basically simple weapon stats (which seems to be the intent), that is their own business. You can make them "overpowered", but that is entirely on you then, that is not an inherent fault of the rules.
And even giving an improvised weapon martial statistics doesn't make up for the fact that you have a -2 penalty to attack rolls. It would still be an exceptionally terrible weapon for literally everyone that hasn't taken the Weapon Improviser dedication, including a caster. Saying that this penalty is somehow not making a weapon irrelevant unless it is literally the only thing you can use is absurd.
That is literally the exact same argument that graystone is giving. And it really isn't a flawed argument as far as rules go.
But my point is that with that ruling as the baseline for the game, how do I as a GM handle giving out improved weapon runes as treasure or loot without the players deciding to cheese the system and use those before they actually transfer them to their main weapons? I showed previously that the math on that means that using the new weapon without proficiency is still better than using your older weapon with proficiency.
So what do I do? Only hand out runestones with the runes instead of letting them loot the weapon that the enemy that they were just fighting was using against them? Oh wait, runstones are items too and it does in fact have a weapon rune etched on it. So just hit people with the runestone. It does more damage than your current weapon in some cases.
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That is literally the exact same argument that graystone is giving. And it really isn't a flawed argument as far as rules go.
But my point is that with that ruling as the baseline for the game, how do I as a GM handle giving out improved weapon runes as treasure or loot without the players deciding to cheese the system and use those before they actually transfer them to their main weapons? I showed previously that the math on that means that using the new weapon without proficiency is still better than using your older weapon with proficiency.
Except that that conclusion is missing a few key pieces that negate your argument, unless you as a GM are intentionally making improvised weapons better than intended by giving them better stats.
With a +1 potency rune, the improvised weapon is effectively a -1 weapon with at best the same stats otherwise. The improvised weapon is worse. This trend continues with every new grade of potency rune, as existing weapons will have the previous grade of potency rune, meaning improvised weapons always have a lower attack modifier.
Striking runes make the weapon technically better at pure damage, but that is only an issue if you give improvised weapons martial levels of statistics. A 3d4 mug or 3d6 chair isn't really better than a 2d8 longsword, especially when using it incurs an effective -1 penalty.
And that is given the situation that the players choose to put the runes on a random item, rather than literally any vaguely suitable weapon that they can find. Which is vanishingly unlikely. If you have access to the tools and services that allow you to put runes on anything, you will have a way to buy a bloody weapon.
So just no.
Another exploit I just thought of with allowing weapon runes on an improvised weapon attack: It makes Weapon Improviser Dedication strictly better than Fighter Dedication. You get to use both martial weapons and advanced weapons. You also use your scaling simple weapon proficiency instead of being stuck at trained proficiency (unless and until you get to level 12 and spend another class feat to get Diverse Weapon Expert). And since you can use runes instead of Improvised Pummel to increase the damage dice, you don't risk breaking the weapon you are using.
And if you are already aware that using an actual weapon as an improvised weapon is worse than using any other option, why are you so dead set against making them more worse?
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Another exploit I just thought of with allowing weapon runes on an improvised weapon attack: It makes Weapon Improviser Dedication strictly better than Fighter Dedication. You get to use both martial weapons and advanced weapons. You also use your scaling simple weapon proficiency instead of being stuck at trained proficiency (unless and until you get to level 12 and spend another class feat to get Diverse Weapon Expert). And since you can use runes instead of Improvised Pummel to increase the damage dice, you don't risk breaking the weapon you are using.
And if you are already aware that using an actual weapon as an improvised weapon is worse than using any other option, why are you so dead set against making them more worse?
I fail to see how having the option to get runes on a two-handed d4 weapon with no traits (which is something the GM could decide is what improvised weapons do) is strictly better than getting proficiency in simple and martial weapons with their intended damage dice and traits with the fighter dedication, not to mention all the feats that then opens up for you through the archetype.
You don't just "get to use both martial weapons and advanced weapons". You get to use them as improvised weapons, which, again, are up to GM discretion. It's literally impossible for it to become OP
You get to use both martial weapons and advanced weapons.
This is literally meaningless when used as an improvised weapon. They are moot. If I'm using a halfling staffsling to bash someone over the head, it doesn't really matter how difficult it is to use it correctly or it's normal trait balance was.
You also use your scaling simple weapon proficiency instead of being martial or advanced, but simple weapons and they are at a -2.
Again, meaningless as they are simple now: there isn't any reason to think a Dm isn't going to set stats to the appropriate levels. If they don't it's not the fault of the rule.
And if you are already aware that using an actual weapon as an improvised weapon is worse than using any other option, why are you so dead set against making them more worse?
That's the wrong question IMO: I'm saying what I think the RAW is. I think the actual question is 'why isn't the RAW option, that is already bad, not bad enough for you that you want to houserule it to make it even worse? You do know that you, or your Dm if you aren't the DM, sets the stats so the only way it's better or 'too good to be true' is if the DM lets that happen?
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Aw3som3's point really can't be stated enough. Improvised weapons are treated like simple weapons and the stats on them are GM discretion.
So all of the supposed exploits people are worried about literally require the GM to specifically enable them in the first place. And if the GM and the players both want something to happen a certain way... it feels kind of weird to call that exploitative.
Aw3som3's point really can't be stated enough. Improvised weapons are treated like simple weapons and the stats on them are GM discretion.
Does that include the number of damage dice that it does, or only the size.
I am honestly astonished that all of you can sit there with a straight face and tell me that one weapon that does 3d4 damage with a +2 item bonus is not strictly better than a weapon that does 1d6 damage with no item bonus.
I even showed earlier that a weapon that does 3d6 damage with a net -1 bonus is better than a weapon that does 2d6 damage with a +1.
The only thing I can say to that is that if I am ever your GM running a prison break scene where I am expecting you to use improvised weapons and have balanced the encounters accordingly, I am making all of those Rhoka Swords that the enemies are doing 3d8 damage to you with crumble to dust as soon as you touch the hilts. Because I am not rebalancing the entire rest of the dungeon again.
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Aw3som3's point really can't be stated enough. Improvised weapons are treated like simple weapons and the stats on them are GM discretion.Does that include the number of damage dice that it does, or only the size.
I am honestly astonished that all of you can sit there with a straight face and tell me that one weapon that does 3d4 damage with a +2 item bonus is not strictly better than a weapon that does 1d6 damage with no item bonus.
I even showed earlier that a weapon that does 3d6 damage with a net -1 bonus is better than a weapon that does 2d6 damage with a +1.
Your comparisons always leave out a ton of extremely relevant stuff and even then they are hardly convincing. If you compare the things that will actually be relevant, you get an entirely different picture than the one you are painting.
For one, that -1 (why -1, it should be +/-0 for a +2 weapon?) 3d6 weapon isn't being compared to a +1 2d6 weapon. It is being compared to a +1 2d6 agile finesse versatile S weapon, a +1 2d10 reach trip weapon or a +1 2d8 shove weapon, just to give some examples. Even your original comparison isn't very favourable, since trading a minor damage increase (at the absolute best 12 points on a crit) for a relative -2 (actually -1, but still) to your attacks is pure madness when dealing with creatures that have 200+ HP. If you take traits into account, literally nothing you can say will save your argument.
The only thing I can say to that is that if I am ever your GM running a prison break scene where I am expecting you to use improvised weapons and have balanced the encounters accordingly, I am making all of those Rhoka Swords that the enemies are doing 3d8 damage to you with crumble to dust as soon as you touch the hilts. Because I am not rebalancing the entire rest of the dungeon again.
Then you don't seem to have put much effort or thought into such a scenario in the first place.
What about first applying some non-combat problems, where the PCs have to find a way out of their cells and discover a forgotten part of the prison, using crappy weapons - relative to their status as level 10+ adventurers, so basically anything up to +1 striking - against foes that are substantially below their level? Find a bunch of dusty old gear on the old guards who have become undead in the centuries that have passed since the section was walled off. Then you have them fight progressively stronger mooks in the actual prison, equipping them piece by piece. Which is easy if you don't give all the enemies weapons the PCs can't use for no good reason. Eventually they get their stuff back and on the way there they get a couple of upgrades they can actually use. End the whole experience with the jailer/captor end boss.
And that is just one way to do it that cost me like 20 seconds of thinking about this scenario. All of this is only a problem if you make it one.
Your comparisons always leave out a ton of extremely relevant stuff and even then they are hardly convincing. If you compare the things that will actually be relevant, you get an entirely different picture than the one you are painting.
For one, that -1 (why -1, it should be +/-0 for a +2 weapon?) 3d6 weapon isn't being compared to a +1 2d6 weapon. It is being compared to a +1 2d6 agile finesse versatile S weapon, a +1 2d10 reach trip weapon or a +1 2d8 shove weapon, just to give some examples. Even your original comparison isn't very favourable, since trading a minor damage increase (at the absolute best 12 points on a crit) for a relative -2 (actually -1, but still) to your attacks is pure madness when dealing with creatures that have 200+ HP. If you take traits into account, literally nothing you can say will save your argument.
Relevant. So the 12 points of damage per attack (or at least per round) is not relevant, but the versatile S trait is? Agile or finesse probably would make a bit of a difference, but again I am not trying to say that using improvised weapons is better than using proper weapons suited to your character.
Then you don't seem to have put much effort or thought into such a scenario in the first place.
What about first applying some non-combat problems, where the PCs have to find a way out of their cells and discover a forgotten part of the prison, using crappy weapons - relative to their status as level 10+ adventurers, so basically anything up to +1 striking - against foes that are substantially below their level? Find a bunch of dusty old gear on the old guards who have become undead in the centuries that have passed since the section was walled off. Then you have them fight progressively stronger mooks in the actual prison, equipping them piece by piece. Which is easy if you don't give all the enemies weapons the PCs can't use for no good reason. Eventually they get their stuff back and on the way there they get a couple of upgrades they can actually use. End the whole experience with the jailer/captor end boss.
And how is any of that not also applicable to scenarios where the untrained weapons don't behave like slightly-behind-level regular weapons? Again, no one has answered my question: what do you gain by allowing the weapon runes to apply to improvised weapons? If you already have an on-level proficient weapon to use, we are all aware that using an improvised weapon of any variety is a bad choice. So what do you gain?
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I'm also curious how you would rule on these specifics. Let's use that Rhoka Sword from previous post. Level 12 characters and a +2 greater striking Rhoka Sword. You can add applicable traits if you feel it is relevant.
If a Barbarian (+5 STR) picks up that sword and uses it as normal with no proficiency: What is their attack bonus, how much damage does the weapon deal, and what is the expected damage.
If a Wizard (+2 STR) with Fighter Dedication rips the non-magical leg off of a table and uses it as an improvised weapon: What is their attack bonus, how much damage does the weapon deal, and what is the expected damage?
If a Wizard with Fighter Dedication picks up that Rhoka Sword and uses it as an improvised weapon: What is their attack bonus, how much damage does the weapon deal, and what is the expected damage?
If a Wizard with Weapon Improviser Dedication rips the non-magical leg off of a table and uses it as an improvised weapon: What is their attack bonus, how much damage does the weapon deal, and what is the expected damage?
If a Wizard with Weapon Improviser Dedication picks up that Rhoka Sword and uses it as an improvised weapon: What is their attack bonus, how much damage does the weapon deal, and what is the expected damage?
And note that I am not interested in comparing how the Wizard would fare using a +2 greater striking staff. We all already know that this will (or at least should) have a better outcome than any of these other options that the Wizard has.
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Relevant. So the 12 points of damage per attack (or at least per round) is not relevant, but the versatile S trait is? Agile or finesse probably would make a bit of a difference, but again I am not trying to say that using improvised weapons is better than using proper weapons suited to your character.
Yes, I would call a potential 12 extra points of damage or, if we are being realistic, an average of 3.5 damage per round frankly irrelevant at that point. Not at the cost you pay in lost hit chance, traits and often die size (which also reduces or basically negates the damage advantage in many cases). Unless you are playing a ranged character, finding some kind of weapon that will vaguely work for you isn't difficult.
And how is any of that not also applicable to scenarios where the untrained weapons don't behave like slightly-behind-level regular weapons? Again, no one has answered my question: what do you gain by allowing the weapon runes to apply to improvised weapons? If you already have an on-level proficient weapon to use, we are all aware that using an improvised weapon of any variety is a bad choice. So what do you gain?
You gain a lot, actually. The main things are player agency, creativity and immersion through realism. Yes, yes, runes don't exist in the real world, but the real world doesn't have creatures with progressively increasing health pools. Because in what situation do you actually use improvised weapons? When you have literally no other viable option. For example, your fighter uses a halberd and just discovered that he has to fight oozes that are immune to slashing/piercing and the caster is out of aoe spells. He could use his d4 gauntlets and be irrelevant for the fight or he could use the shaft of his halberd as an improvised quarterstaff. Which is exactly what people would do in this kind of situation, with plenty historical examples to choose from (e.g. half-swording). By disallowing runes on improvised weapons - because that is the base rule, not the other way around - you take away this potential for literally no reason.
I'm also curious how you would rule on these specifics. Let's use that Rhoka Sword from previous post. Level 12 characters and a +2 greater striking Rhoka Sword. You can add applicable traits if you feel it is relevant.
[1]If a Barbarian (+5 STR) picks up that sword and uses it as normal with no proficiency: What is their attack bonus, how much damage does the weapon deal, and what is the expected damage.
[2]If a Wizard (+2 STR) with Fighter Dedication rips the non-magical leg off of a table and uses it as an improvised weapon: What is their attack bonus, how much damage does the weapon deal, and what is the expected damage?
[3]If a Wizard with Fighter Dedication picks up that Rhoka Sword and uses it as an improvised weapon: What is their attack bonus, how much damage does the weapon deal, and what is the expected damage?
[4]If a Wizard with Weapon Improviser Dedication rips the non-magical leg off of a table and uses it as an improvised weapon: What is their attack bonus, how much damage does the weapon deal, and what is the expected damage?
[5]If a Wizard with Weapon Improviser Dedication picks up that Rhoka Sword and uses it as an improvised weapon: What is their attack bonus, how much damage does the weapon deal, and what is the expected damage?
And note that I am not interested in comparing how the Wizard would fare using a +2 greater striking staff. We all already know that this will (or at least should) have a better outcome than any of these other options that the Wizard has.
[I have numbered the cases to make things easier]
The Rhoka Sword, which would already be a sub-par weapon even for a trained individual, would have very limited use as an improvised weapon. The blades are too light to be an effective bludgeoning tool and would prevent you from gripping them properly to use the heavy part - the massive guard. So the best I would give it is a d6 P, meaning it would effectively be a +/- 0 3d6P weapon.
[1] a) attack modifier +3 (no prof. and -2 penalty) with regular weapon stats or b) attack mod +19 (simple-2), damage= 3d6+7+Rage
[2] attack modifier +14 (simple prof. -2), weapon= 1d4B, damage=1d4+2 - this person has a death wish
[3] attack mod +14, damage= 3d6+2
[4] attack mod +16, 1d4+2
[5] attack mod +18, 3d6+2
All in all, expect a lot of damage and imminent death... for the wizard. Unless you are fighting golems or your magic is otherwise unavailable or useless, do literally anything else but what you are doing. But this isn't really a good measurement, since a wizard like this even with a proper weapon would be useless in melee. Improvised weapons are really only ever useful for proper melee characters in a pinch.
The Rhoka Sword, which would already be a sub-par weapon even for a trained individual, would have very limited use as an improvised weapon. The blades are too light to be an effective bludgeoning tool and would prevent you from gripping them properly to use the heavy part - the massive guard. So the best I would give it is a d6 P, meaning it would effectively be a +/- 0 3d6P weapon.
I agree with your post. I'd make a small tweak here though: I'd make it a two handed improvised weapon because of it's general unwieldiness/size/weight requires advanced weapon proficiency to wield in 1 hand.
The Rhoka Sword, which would already be a sub-par weapon even for a trained individual, would have very limited use as an improvised weapon. The blades are too light to be an effective bludgeoning tool and would prevent you from gripping them properly to use the heavy part - the massive guard. So the best I would give it is a d6 P, meaning it would effectively be a +/- 0 3d6P weapon.I agree with your post. I'd make a small tweak here though: I'd make it a two handed improvised weapon because of it's general unwieldiness/size/weight requires advanced weapon proficiency to wield in 1 hand.
I definitely thought about doing that for the same reasons and would definitely do that for quite a few characters. That wizard would be a prime candidate, if I didn't think he was already screwed enough XD
I wouldn't do it for all of them though. That 20 strength barbarian can effectively wield a fantasy tower shield with one hand, so it would make sense in-universe for him to be able to use that thing as a glorified short spear. For him I might even be persuaded to make it two-handed d8, because using it with two hands would realistically make it a much more effective spear.
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The necromancy is strong here...
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That's what I figured. Have we solved the issue?I think it's solved but other think differently.
To sum it up, some think that you can use a weapon in a way that it wasn't intended, like throwing a weapon without Thrown or using the flat of your blade with a bastard sword and some don't. Some think runes don't work if you use improvised weapon with a weapon and some do.
Myself I see it this way: I think weapons can be used as improvised weapons and improvised weapon are simple weapon, so when you use a weapon as an improvised weapon, since it's still a weapon, the runes still work. Then of course, when used as an improvised weapon, the DM sets the damage die, damage type and traits.
So for the OP, myself I'd let the warhammer deal use it's full die [as it's only going 10' and dealing B] and I would have made it a range increment of 5' but since the character had Hunt Prey and ignored the second increment it didn't matter. Myself, I'd be a little more lenient with thrown damage if it wouldn't be too hard to throw [hammer throw is a thing] as you're tossing away your weapon and taking a -2 to hit. That said, I wouldn't be upset if a DM said it only did less damage.
This is how I would rule it mostly, but probably would have said the damage die is a d6, because the best thrown simple weapon only deals a d6.