On page 57, in the Summoner class Description, it states the following with respect to the Eidolon tag:Eidolon: A creature with this trait is an eidolon. An action or spell with this trait can be performed by an eidolon only. An item with this trait can be used or worn by an eidolon only, AND AN EIDOLON CAN'T USE ITEMS THAT DON'T HAVE THIS TRAIT. (An eidolon can have up to two items invested.)" Emphasis mine, of course. This text would imply that an eidolon cannot use a potion, thieve's tools, or other mundane items.
What it says on Page 253: "eidolon (trait) A creature with this trait is a summoner’s eidolon. An item with this trait can be worn by an eidolon. An eidolon can have up to two items invested. 58–66." There is no language here barring an eidolon from using tools like a healer's kit. But there is no language specifically saying they CAN use them, either.
As written, the specific from page 57 would overrule the general from page 253. But the inconsistency is odd, and I can't help but wonder if one of these two bits of text has a misprint?
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I'm only seeing the Eidolon trait having the following:
Eidolon trait wrote: An item with this trait can be worn by an eidolon. An eidolon can have up to two items invested. No prohibition against using non-magical items.
In the Summoner stat block:
Gear And Your Eidolon wrote: Your eidolon can't wear or use magic items, except for items with the eidolon trait. Again no prohibition against using non-magical items like toolkits.
Maybe the Archives of Nethys have different text? Maybe there is a second definition of the Eidolon trait?
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Ahh. Under 'Key Terms' in the Summoner definition. The reminder text.
Yeah, use the actual Eidolon trait.
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Yep in fact an eidolon can't use mundane items. Do eidolons cannot craft, do medicine checks, repair, pick lock or even fish!
But still they can disable mostly traps.
I think it's meant for magical stuff ( this also includes consumables and spells ). Alchemical stuff too ( though is not specifically written ).
There are specific rules about what magic stuff an eidolon benefits from the summoner, but no specific word or examle about any single mundane items, as well as tools ( after all, sharing the summoner skills, having his own dual studies and mostly giving the possibility to take "skilled partner" requires the eidolon to also benefit from using tools, at least. Or else either shared skills and skilled partner wouldn't make sense 50% of the times ).
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HumbleGamer wrote: There are specific rules about what magic stuff an eidolon benefits from the summoner, but no specific word or examle about any single mundane items, as well as tools ( after all, sharing the summoner skills, having his own dual studies and mostly giving the possibility to take "skilled partner" requires the eidolon to also benefit from using tools, at least. Or else either shared skills and skilled partner wouldn't make sense 50% of the times ). I don't think that follows: you #1 don't have to take skills with tools for "skilled partner" and #2 no skill requires tools for every use. For instance, an eidolon with medicine or craft is fully capable of Recall Knowledge with them: it's not the best use of skilled partner, but you didn't have to pick them.
graystone wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: There are specific rules about what magic stuff an eidolon benefits from the summoner, but no specific word or examle about any single mundane items, as well as tools ( after all, sharing the summoner skills, having his own dual studies and mostly giving the possibility to take "skilled partner" requires the eidolon to also benefit from using tools, at least. Or else either shared skills and skilled partner wouldn't make sense 50% of the times ). I don't think that follows: you #1 don't have to take skills with tools for "skilled partner" and #2 no skill requires tools for every use. For instance, an eidolon with medicine or craft is fully capable of Recall Knowledge with them: it's not the best use of skilled partner, but you didn't have to pick them. He is allowed to take any skill feat with no restriction. Not even a word about it.
For example, a construct may take speciality crafting, magical crafting and inventor.
I stand firm it's to prevent an eidolon from using anything magical/alchemical/consumable.
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HumbleGamer wrote:
He is allowed to take any skill feat with no restriction. Not even a word about it.
Ah... yeah I don't see the issue. In much the same way, players aren't told they need tools in the skill feats but have to actually look at the skills themselves. For instance, Risky Surgery doesn't tell me that I need tools to to Treat Wounds: I have to do the bare minimum to figure that out myself. Nothing prevents me from taking it without buying tools.
HumbleGamer wrote: For example, a construct may take speciality crafting, magical crafting and inventor. Sure, JUST like my fighter can take Armor Proficiency even though it does nothing for that class. That doesn't mean fighter should warn me not to take it. Just the fact that you can take options that don't give you any benefit doesn't mean anything other than you shouldn't take those options.
HumbleGamer wrote: I stand firm it's to prevent an eidolon from using anything magical/alchemical/consumable. I'm wasn't commenting on that: I was commenting that the reason you gave doesn't prove anything. Myself, I'm on the fence. No matter what they meant, they really should word it better.
Wording things better would have helped, and we all agree on this, but I also think the example of the fighter doesn't fit it.
Also, I don't get " Just the fact that you can take options that don't give you any benefit doesn't mean anything other than you shouldn't take those options."
What would be its meaning?
Seems to me another situation like the "poisoner" Not being able to craft elixirs because a DM would assume its crafting feat only applies on poisons ( and because so you'd never be able to take it twice. Or even better, you could exploit it by taking it before the poisoner dedication)
HumbleGamer wrote: What would be its meaning? It means JUST like the fighter example: they can take a feat that does nothing for them and nothing in the prerequisites forbids it. You very much can take something that doesn't help your character.
Then there is the fact that nothing in eidolons directly requires equipment of any kind, just some options [skill feats] of a separate option [skilled partner]. That very fact means you have to intentionally pick specific sub-options to find a non-working feat when there where many, many more that work fine: to me that means it's working fine without tool use as some hidden and unwritten requirement and instead just means that they don't get any use out of some feats.
HumbleGamer wrote: Seems to me another situation like the "poisoner" Not being able to craft elixirs because a DM would assume its crafting feat only applies on poisons ( and because so you'd never be able to take it twice. Or even better, you could exploit it by taking it before the poisoner dedication) Well, I'd say poisoner IS restricted to just poisons: "You gain the basic alchemy benefits, though they can be used only for alchemical poisons" and basic alchemy benefits saying "This means you get the Alchemical Crafting feat, infused reagents (a pool of reagents usable to make alchemical items), and advanced alchemy (allowing you to make alchemical items during your daily preparations without the normal cost or time expenditure)" seems pretty clear to me. Alchemical Archetypes even says "The individual archetype might impose special restrictions or benefits". The fact that there are workarounds doesn't mean much IMO. In fact, if the player want general use of the feat, I'd suggest they do just that.
Either way it works, then that right there is another example of feats you can take that don't do anything for you: if you take both the Alchemist Dedication then the Poisoner Dedication, you end up with a feat that does nothing for you as you can't take Alchemical Crafting twice.
So, there is a sentence that explicitly puts a restriction. There are other sentences that do not mention this restriction but do not say there is no restriction either.
Pending an errata, I will go with the restriction existing, unless it really appears too bad to be true in game.
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The Raven Black wrote: So, there is a sentence that explicitly puts a restriction. There are other sentences that do not mention this restriction but do not say there is no restriction either.
Pending an errata, I will go with the restriction existing, unless it really appears too bad to be true in game.
it's a bit more complicated than that, because in the "first" case it's not that there is no mention of the restriction, it is that the restriction is specifically mentioned and is different than the "second" place.
we really have:
restriction: you can only use magical items with the companion trait.
restriction: you can only use items with the companion trait.
Obviously it needs an errata, because the two sentences are contradictory to each other.
(btw i have no clue what the RAI here is either, but i would assume that the RAI is that mundane items are allowed, since the eidolon is smart, has appendages, has stats, skillls, and skill feats, so i see no reason why it can't open a door, as an example, or use a hammer to nail something on the wall, and etc)
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Gonna throw my two cents in here on something:
P. 253, Eidolon Trait: "An item with this trait can be worn by an eidolon." This language is *not* limited to magical items, and that suggests that the intention was to keep the eidolon from having items at all.
To allow our eidolon to wear a bandolier of tools, or even a backpack that they might retrieve tools from, you must choose to completely ignore this text, which steps *firmly* into houserule territory. You could *maybe* try and rules-lawyer your way into saying that your eidolon is simply carrying these tools in their hands at all times, but that argument feels very thin to me, especially since it specifically punishes and rewards flavor decisions like having your eidolon be a giant snake or multi-armed monstrosity.
That said, the very fact that this many of us disagree is probably a good case on its own for Paizo to weigh in with some errata that clarifis the wording of the Eidolon trait.
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