Hello Esteemed Members of the Board,
I am having a blast summoning animals with a generalist wizard that I play. This got me to thinking, which class is the best at summoning various types of creatures? I guess I am asking to help me build a PFS legal best of the best summoner (and not necessarily the new class :)_
It sort of depends? PF2 is very good at not having one class be the best at any given thing.
Though, here is a quick look at what the options more or less are;
Cleric Doesn't really have much feat or focus spell support for summoning, but worth mentioning because of how many heal or harm spells they can pump out.
Druid Animal order druid gets an animal companion and a focus spell (that can be cast as a single action) to heal animals, which are most of what the druid summons. The call of the wild feat and elemental summons feats lets you replace prepared spells with a summon spell, and primal summons lets you give extra elemental abilities to an animal or plant summon. The primal spell list is also full of heals and buffs that you can cast on your summons.
Summoner In addition to having an Eidolon, has the most feat support for summon spells, and has essentially an extra action, which can help. Ostentatious Arrival lets your summon cause an AOE damage effect when it arrives, and Master Summoner gives you more spell slots to use for summoning spells.
Wizard Conjuration Wizard gets a 1 action focus spell that gives a summon +1 to all checks and DCs.
I think it is really a toss up between the Druid and Summoner, and also kind of depends on what kind of creatures you want to summon. I would strongly recommend Cleric if you want to be a necromancer for example, because you can spam Harm spells to both heal your minions and damage the enemies they are fighting.
edit: It is also worth looking at the Beastmaster archeytype as it gives you an animal companion and more support for healing/buffing animals, and eventually lets you have 2 animal companions on the field at once.
It is also worth looking at ways to enhance your action economy as sustaining summon spells costs an action each turn.
This is very helpful!
I think I am wanting access to the various summoning spells, fiends, celestials, animals, etc.
To me the most helpful things for Summoning is the action economy so Effortless Concentration but thats level 14 and most get it (not Cleric or Oracle)
then Cackle which is a Witch special from level 1 and a nice way to squeeze something extra out.
Then feats that give you extra slots for summoning. Primal Sorcerer/Druid/Summoner have one
Of the real bonuses
Ostentatious Arrival from the Summoner is good
Augement Summoning is something I wouldn't spend an action on even if I had it.
There is not much else specific to Summoning. Very little support so far.
Anyone can get an animal companion. Summoner is the best summoner with the eidolon, but they just run out of spell slots so fast. Sadly there is no focus spell that does summoning - and I'm not sure if that is a design choice or a gap waiting to be filled.
A quick look through the spell lists gives me this rough break down of who can summon what;
Arcane: Animals, Constructs, Dragons, Duplicates, Elementals, Illusions, Undead, Utility
Divine: Celestials, Fiends, Monitors, Undead
Occult: Aberrations, Duplicates, Fey, Illusions, Undead, Utility
Primal: Animals, Elementals, Fey, Fungi, Giants, Plants, Utility
*I put utility for stuff where I'm not sure they fit into other categories, like unseen servant and phantom steed.
It is worth noting that the earliest summon spell on the divine list (Summon Lesser Servitor) does provide the option of a limited selection of animals (that gain the celestial/fiend/monitor trait and alignment trait that is relevant).
edit: It is also worth noting that any given divine caster can only summon 3 of the 4 available creature types for divine casters, as their summon spells restrict you from summoning creatures of the opposing alignment to your deity. A lawful evil summoner for example, can't summon celestials or chaotic monitors. A good aligned summoner will also probably run into anathema issues when summoning undead.
A quick look through the spell lists gives me this rough break down of who can summon what;
Arcane: Animals, Constructs, Dragons, Duplicates, Elementals, Illusions, Undead, Utility
Divine: Celestials, Fiends, Monitors, Undead
Occult: Aberrations, Duplicates, Fey, Illusions, Undead, Utility
Primal: Animals, Elementals, Fey, Fungi, Giants, Plants, Utility*I put utility for stuff where I'm not sure they fit into other categories, like unseen servant and phantom steed.
It is worth noting that the earliest summon spell on the divine list (Summon Lesser Servitor) does provide the option of a limited selection of animals (that gain the celestial/fiend/monitor trait and alignment trait that is relevant).
edit: It is also worth noting that any given divine caster can only summon 3 of the 4 available creature types for divine casters, as their summon spells restrict you from summoning creatures of the opposing alignment to your deity. A lawful evil summoner for example, can't summon celestials or chaotic monitors. A good aligned summoner will also probably run into anathema issues when summoning undead.
This is very helpful! Thank you for this break down!
A quick look through the spell lists gives me this rough break down of who can summon what;
Arcane: Animals, Constructs, Dragons, Duplicates, Elementals, Illusions, Undead, Utility
Divine: Celestials, Fiends, Monitors, Undead
Occult: Aberrations, Duplicates, Fey, Illusions, Undead, Utility
Primal: Animals, Elementals, Fey, Fungi, Giants, Plants, Utility*I put utility for stuff where I'm not sure they fit into other categories, like unseen servant and phantom steed.
It is worth noting that the earliest summon spell on the divine list (Summon Lesser Servitor) does provide the option of a limited selection of animals (that gain the celestial/fiend/monitor trait and alignment trait that is relevant).
edit: It is also worth noting that any given divine caster can only summon 3 of the 4 available creature types for divine casters, as their summon spells restrict you from summoning creatures of the opposing alignment to your deity. A lawful evil summoner for example, can't summon celestials or chaotic monitors. A good aligned summoner will also probably run into anathema issues when summoning undead.
I forgot all about the witch!
What about a N summoner?
Oracles and Sorcerers seem to have the most freedom to cherry pick spells from other traditions, so I'm guessing if you want to summon all the things those are your best shots. But be warned that there probably won't be much use in summoning creatures below your 2nd highest spell level, so you should plan to have other options as well.
A divine spellcaster following a true neutral deity does indeed get to summon all of the divine creature types - they are still limited by the anathema of their deity though (for example, Pharasma won't like you summoning undead or Sakhils)
From what I have read, the divine list provides the most versatile summons. So any divine caster with a lot of slots might be the best summoner. A neutral Divine summoner who can use summon celestial, demon, daemon, or anarch can probably get the most bang for the buck.
Maybe take Wizard dedication and get the conjuration focus spell.
I would think some kind of divine sorcerer for maximum slots. Take the wizard dedication to obtain the summoning enhancement focus spell Augment Summoning.
You could do quite a bit with that summoning set up. Good buff spells too and access to Effortless Concentration and 2 lvl 10 spells so you could eventually run to lvl 10 summons at the same time.
And pointed out above you could use cross-blooded to pick up other summons like dragon, elemental, fey, or aberration from other lists. Then you can summon just about anything.
What about a N summoner?
The summoner is all about the eidolon. Nowhere near the best summoner. Not enough spell slots. No way to boost their attack roll or save DCs.
They have the ultimate summoned creature in the eidolon though.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Take the wizard dedication to obtain the summoning enhancement focus spell Augment Summoning.
No, just no. For 1 point of AC on your summons! Why bother? My action and focus pool are more useful to me that that. No to mention the 2 class feats you've spent to do this. I want my summoned creature to be attacked.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Take the wizard dedication to obtain the summoning enhancement focus spell Augment Summoning.No, just no. For 1 point of AC on your summons! Why bother? My action and focus pool are more useful to me that that. No to mention the 2 class feats you've spent to do this. I want my summoned creature to be attacked.
It is +1 to everything including the DC of abilities.
You might be better off getting bard archetype and spending an action buffing or using dirge of doom.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Best summoning class is the wizard - summons are generally only good out of top slots and the wizard gets the most of them.
Second best is primal sorcerer, same reason, 5 top slots with primal evolution.
Other than that, if you want other tradition summoning, I'd still suggest sorcerer.
Um...Bard? The class doesn't have Summoning support, but its Compositions are better than many of the other class's Summoning support. It's the class that thrives better with larger parties.
For Occult, the Fey & Aberration lists have some quirky options, and quirky is good when you can match it with the situation. Fey often have good hit points due to their Weakness to Cold Iron, something enemies will seldom take advantage of; also perhaps flight w/ a ranged attack (so they don't get swamped, unless you want them as a meat shield of course). Aberrations often have Resist, Immunity, or a useful aura. And both often have spells. I particularly like the Unicorn.
And then the Bard buffs them as part of their normal routine of buffing the party. The drawback being Bards have fewer slots, but even when low on spells, they can contribute better than others can when depleted. And you don't even need Charisma to pull this off, allowing for variant Bard builds.
And yes, other classes w/ MCD Bard could do this too, though it'd take several levels. The first good Composition buff wouldn't be until 8th, though if a Sorcerer, the plentiful slots might make up for this delay.
--
Separately, Ostentatious Arrival is an awesome feat if your PC summons (not that summoning's a strong option, being mainly useful for its utility & adaptability). Unfortunately the Summoner's lack of slots (and the Eidelon popping in adjacent!) make it better for other classes, but if you're already summoning into crowds this is free* damage! And it can be tuned to an enemy's Weakness, that is if you have something like Summon Dragon or Summon Elemental which have a breadth of creatures w/ energy traits.
*Well, free in the in-combat resources sense. It's plenty of investment to get to the feat itself (3 MCD feats + 14 Cha). :-)
I hope someday to see a Summoner archetype that gives up their Eidelon to maybe get "highest level slots" that can only be used for Summon spells, perhaps equal to one's Charisma bonus.
Oracles and Sorcerers seem to have the most freedom to cherry pick spells from other traditions, so I'm guessing if you want to summon all the things those are your best shots. But be warned that there probably won't be much use in summoning creatures below your 2nd highest spell level, so you should plan to have other options as well.
Can you explain that to me, please?
What about a N summoner?The summoner is all about the eidolon. Nowhere near the best summoner. Not enough spell slots. No way to boost their attack roll or save DCs.
They have the ultimate summoned creature in the eidolon though.
I was talking about classes who can summon other creatures, not necessarily the new class.
So far my wizard has summoned a hippocampus, a hynea and a raptor (a few times). I really like 'em.
Um...Bard? The class doesn't have Summoning support, but its Compositions are better than many of the other class's Summoning support. It's the class that thrives better with larger parties.
For Occult, the Fey & Aberration lists have some quirky options, and quirky is good when you can match it with the situation. Fey often have good hit points due to their Weakness to Cold Iron, something enemies will seldom take advantage of; also perhaps flight w/ a ranged attack (so they don't get swamped, unless you want them as a meat shield of course). Aberrations often have Resist, Immunity, or a useful aura. And both often have spells. I particularly like the Unicorn.
And then the Bard buffs them as part of their normal routine of buffing the party. The drawback being Bards have fewer slots, but even when low on spells, they can contribute better than others can when depleted. And you don't even need Charisma to pull this off, allowing for variant Bard builds.
And yes, other classes w/ MCD Bard could do this too, though it'd take several levels. The first good Composition buff wouldn't be until 8th, though if a Sorcerer, the plentiful slots might make up for this delay.--
Separately, Ostentatious Arrival is an awesome feat if your PC summons (not that summoning's a strong option, being mainly useful for its utility & adaptability). Unfortunately the Summoner's lack of slots (and the Eidelon popping in adjacent!) make it better for other classes, but if you're already summoning into crowds this is free* damage! And it can be tuned to an enemy's Weakness, that is if you have something like Summon Dragon or Summon Elemental which have a breadth of creatures w/ energy traits.*Well, free in the in-combat resources sense. It's plenty of investment to get to the feat itself (3 MCD feats + 14 Cha). :-)
I hope someday to see a Summoner archetype that gives up their Eidelon to maybe get "highest level slots" that can only be used for Summon spells, perhaps equal to one's Charisma bonus.
The original summoner pre unchained, had something kinda like that IIRC?
Best summoning class is the wizard - summons are generally only good out of top slots and the wizard gets the most of them.
Second best is primal sorcerer, same reason, 5 top slots with primal evolution.
Other than that, if you want other tradition summoning, I'd still suggest sorcerer.
With the conjuror specialization?
...
All PF1 original Summoners had that, if their Eidelon was missing. They'd still have an Eidelon available, though in PF2 I expect that to be traded out in my estimation.
A PF1 archetype (Master Summoner?) could do that (and w/ even more uses) even if their Eidelon was present, but their Eidelon was at 1/2 level because of it (which at lower levels was hardly a drawback).And that was a powerful feature! I'd GMed several Summoners and it'd take a ton of effort by the baddies to kill the Eidelon only to have the Summoner bring in a pack of significant monsters as replacements (which was easily replaced again if defeated). Plus they could use their normal slots for some solid summons too. PF1 Summoners were unstoppable, that is if they laid low enough not to attract attention to themselves. That strength is of course why PFS had banned Master Summoners and then switched to Unchained Summoners only, as they were better balanced.
With the conjuror specialization?Best summoning class is the wizard - summons are generally only good out of top slots and the wizard gets the most of them.
Second best is primal sorcerer, same reason, 5 top slots with primal evolution.
Other than that, if you want other tradition summoning, I'd still suggest sorcerer.
Maybe yes because you'd find a use for those extra conjuration slots, but maybe no because its Focus Spell is meh (especially if there's a Bard in the party). Once the summoned creature hits the battlemat, what'll you be doing yourself? That might lead to a different school w/ better options for those times, maybe with a better Focus Spell. Part of the calculations also depend on how well you can use the lowest level bonus school spells when you're leveled up.
Oracles and Sorcerers seem to have the most freedom to cherry pick spells from other traditions, so I'm guessing if you want to summon all the things those are your best shots. But be warned that there probably won't be much use in summoning creatures below your 2nd highest spell level, so you should plan to have other options as well.Can you explain that to me, please?
Which part? The cherry picking comment is because oracles and sorcerers both have feats to let them pick spells outside of their tradition. Divine access and cross blooded, IIRC.
The slot level comment is because a summoned monster with a top slot will usually be 3 or 4 levels below you already, which is right on the cusp of being relevant. Any lower and it probably won't be strong enough to justify the actions spent.
Best summoner uh... Each class have their advantages and their problems but almost all them could be a good summoner:
First of all, summon a minimal useful creatures always requires you to use your bests spell slots. Keep this in mind.
- Bards: Can summon fairies and entities!
The main advantage of bard as summoner is that he can use his composition spells to helps summons too. They may problem is that it only have 2-3 spellslots per spell level making summon be more limited to a more dangerous encounters only.
Summon fairies is interesting because many of them can cast spells, entities ar interesting because they have a myriad of debuff like poisons, fears and others aberrational abilities.
- Clerics: Until the SoM the non-evil divine casters are limited to only animated undeads in early levels but after it they now can use Summon Lesser Servitor. Clerics are limited to summon what their deity allows you can't summon a creature if it is opposed to your deity's alignment on either axis (or opposed to your alignment if you don't follow a deity). The GM might determine that deities restrict specific types of creatures even if their alignments aren't diametrically opposed. For example, Pharasma would restrict the summoning of sahkils and undeads too.
Despite that restrictions divine summons are very interesting too, undead has many imunities and negative healing making them usuful agains many types of opponents also both celestials and fiends have many useful spells and abilities making them very versatile.
Beyond all of this the Divine Font allow clerics to have a very large amount of healing (and harm for undeads) to even giving the luxury to use them even in summons keeping them in battle during more time. But just like bards, clerics are limited to 2-3 spellslots per spell level.
- Druids: The primal tradition have a very good myriad of summon spells they can summon animals, plants, fairies, elementals and even giants! But summon animals and plants usually lacks versatility they don't cast spells and their special abilities usually are limited to grab or poison but summon fairies, elementals and giants easily can compensate these limitations, especially the elementals that allow you to have a great diversity of energy damage types in just one prepared spellslot.
Druids also have Primal Summons feat that allows to turn summoned animals/plants but IMO this don't worth. In this level you already can summon elementals so this is a waste of feat and focus spell.
Druid like bards and clerics also have just 2-3 spellslots per spell level.
- Wizard: The second mostly complained spellcaster of the game (only after the witch) but according to latest survey is also the mostly played class! The arcane tradition also have a very good myriad of summon spells just like primal but instead of plants, fairies and giants they have construcs and dragons! Dragons are probably the best and most consistent summon of the game, they have many elemental options, they can fly, they make fear, they are frenzy (do 3 attacks in 2-actions), they can breath!
Also wizards can cast a lot of top level spells. Wizards specialists in conjuration spells receives an additional spellslot that they can prepara an extra summon and Drain Bonded Item allows them to cast one of their best spells again and if they follow the Spell Blending thesis they can even gain another top level spell allowing the wizards to use up to 6 top level spells. This basically allows them to summon in almost all battles they have per day making them very good as summoners.
Specialized wizards also can use a spell focus to increase the summon DC by 1. It isn't the best focus spell but may help to increase the efficient of the breaths a litte! :P
- Sorcerer: They aren't specialized in summoning but they have more spellslots than bards, clerics and druids (they have 3-4 spellslots per spell level). Also they can cross learn some spells from others traditions allowing them to being a little more versatile. At last they can summon more than druid but have a worse chassis (no armor, no animal companion).
- Witch: The witch as only one great thing as summoner. They can cackle! Cackle allows them to sustain 2 summons at same time since earlier levels or even sustain 3 after gain Effortless Concentration concentration. But their main problem is they only have 2-3 spellslot per spell level making this only useful during boss battles.
- Summoner: Summoner has some feats and focus spells that can boost summons like they boost eidolons. But for other side having only 2 top level spellslot restrict them too much. Also is more common to use these slots to support eidolon.
- Magus: Have a similar situation than summoner class, just 2 top spellslots limit them. Also as the summon spells cannot be used with spellstrike probably they have better use to these slots.
Best summoner uh... Each class have their advantages and their problems but almost all them could be a good summoner:
First of all, summon a minimal useful creatures always requires you to use your bests spell slots. Keep this in mind.
There is value in a Summon out of a low level slot. It will only last one turn when attacked maybe only one hit. But in that time it can enable flanking, trigger traps and waste enemy actions. I do find the flanking bonus very nice when your martials have no simple way of getting around a barrier.
- Bards: Can summon fairies and entities!
The main advantage of bard as summoner is that he can use his composition spells to helps summons too.
Yeah I really like the bard when the party gets a bit larger due to animal companions and summons. Their abilities have more effect. The problem is they are really starved for actions so the sustain cost is hurting them.
- Clerics: Until the SoM the non-evil divine casters are limited to only animated undeads in early levels but after it they now can use Summon Lesser Servitor. ...
Beyond all of this the Divine Font allow clerics to have a very large amount of healing (and harm for undeads) to even giving the luxury to use them even in summons keeping them in battle during more time. But just like bards, clerics are limited to 2-3 spellslots per spell level.
Not such a fan of healing summons. It can help but I really think you are over playing a summons durability and mission. The main thing is the free Heal spells gives you room to use more of your slots for summoning.
- Druids: The primal tradition have a very good myriad of summon spells they can summon animals, plants, fairies, elementals and even giants! But summon animals and plants usually lacks versatility they don't cast spells and their special abilities usually are limited to grab or poison but summon fairies, elementals and giants easily can compensate these limitations, especially the elementals that allow you to have a great diversity of energy damage types in just one prepared spellslot.
The Fungi that you can get have some nice abilities. There is quite a range now. Elementals main ability is immunity to critical hits which really improves the life expectancy of a summon.
Druids also have Primal Summons feat that allows to turn summoned animals/plants but IMO this don't worth. In this level you already can summon elementals so this is a waste of feat and focus spell.
Druid like bards and clerics also have just 2-3 spellslots per spell level.
Definitely a Druids focus points should be spent on something more useful. Its not worth the action point or the Feat cost. Because those good focus spells are why you have less slots.
- Wizard: The second mostly complained spellcaster of the game. Also wizards can cast a lot of top level spells. Wizards specialists in conjuration spells receives an additional spellslot that they can prepara an extra summonsorry what ability was that?
and Drain Bonded Item allows them to cast one of their best spells again and if they follow the Spell Blending thesis they can even gain another top level spell allowing the wizards to use up to 6 top level spells. This basically allows them to summon in almost all battles they have per day making them very good as summoners.
Specialized wizards also can use a spell focus to increase the summon DC by 1. It isn't the best focus spell but may help to increase the efficient of the breaths a litte! :P
Other classes get extra slots too, and while we are talking about Summoning people are going to do things other than summoning. A pure summoner is harldy ideal.
- Sorcerer: They aren't specialized in summoning but they have more spellslots than bards, clerics and druids (they have 3-4 spellslots per spell level). Also they can cross learn some spells from others traditions allowing them to being a little more versatile. At last they can summon more than druid but have a worse chassis (no armor, no animal companion).
You are just missing the free spell slots from Primal Summons, and Greater Vital Evolution.
- Witch: The witch as only one great thing as summoner. They can cackle! Cackle allows them to sustain 2 summons at same time since earlier levels or even sustain 3 after gain Effortless Concentration concentration. But their main problem is they only have 2-3 spellslot per spell level making this only useful during boss battles.
Yes not quite enough there IMHO, they need to branch out.
- Summoner: Summoner has some feats and focus spells that can boost summons like they boost eidolons. But for other side having only 2 top level spellslot restrict them too much. Also is more common to use these slots to support eidolon.
Yes but I really do feel the Summoner is the best summoner because of Summoner's Precaution. This combined with cheap out of combat healing allows them to treat the eidolon as a disposable summons. The Eidolon being a much tougher and more flexible than any one Summons, but of course it misses all those odd little spells that you can pick up from normal summons.
I found some uses for summons.
Summoned a mud dretch that grabbed a Destrachan for a round providing the party with a flat-footed bonus.
I summoned an earth elemental to earth glide through a stone wall to help the rogue last when the rogue was locked in alone with a bunch of enemies. It was able to provide a few rounds of support and attack against some weak creatures.
First time summons have been very useful in my experience.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
sorry what ability was that?
Arcane School:
Many arcane spellcasters delve deeply into a single school of magic in an attempt to master its secrets. If you want to be a specialist wizard, choose a school in which to specialize. You gain additional spells and spell slots for spells of your school.
I was talking about the extra Conjuration spellslots for conjuration specialist.
Other classes get extra slots too, and while we are talking about Summoning people are going to do things other than summoning. A pure summoner is harldy ideal.
The extra spellslot of other classes usually are low levels. Only wizard can have in top spell level:
3 slots + extra slot of school + 1 slot from Spell Blending + repeat a spell using Drain Bonded Item.
I know that school's slot and Drain Bonded Item are more limited but works well for versatile spells like summons and yet the wizard can prepare other things in the remaining slots too.
You are just missing the free spell slots from Primal Summons, and Greater Vital Evolution.
Yes I always forget about this feat(Greater Vital Evolution) (for some reason I still didn't play or GMed for a primal/divine sorcerer) but Primal Summons don't give a extra spellslot or summon it's just buff the summon a little as we talked about druid before. I think you mistake the feat here.
sorry what ability was that?Arcane School:
Many arcane spellcasters delve deeply into a single school of magic in an attempt to master its secrets. If you want to be a specialist wizard, choose a school in which to specialize. You gain additional spells and spell slots for spells of your school.I was talking about the extra Conjuration spellslots for conjuration specialist.
I kind of expect everyone was counting those already in their 3-4 slots.
Other classes get extra slots too, and while we are talking about Summoning people are going to do things other than summoning. A pure summoner is harldy ideal.The extra spellslot of other classes usually are low levels. Only wizard can have in top spell level:
3 slots + extra slot of school + 1 slot from Spell Blending + repeat a spell using Drain Bonded Item.
I know that school's slot and Drain Bonded Item are more limited but works well for versatile spells like summons and yet the wizard can prepare other things in the remaining slots too.
I've really only been talking about top level slots.
I find Spell Blending overrated. Early on you need those low level slots. There are so many spells that you can put in them that they are really useful. Then Spell Blending comes into its own. Especially if you can pick up a few extra spells from items/staves/ring of wizardy. From mid level, maybe from level 7 +, yes it is fabulous. But by then other classes are getting free slots, that aren't costing them lower level spell slots.
Have a look at the new spells on SOM. There are a lot of good spell now that can be cast as reactions, and are perfect for putting in lower lever spell slots.
You are just missing the free spell slots from Primal Summons, and Greater Vital Evolution.Yes I always forget about this feat(Greater Vital Evolution) (for some reason I still didn't play or GMed for a primal/divine sorcerer) but Primal Summons don't give a extra spellslot or summon it's just buff the summon a little as we talked about druid before. I think you mistake the feat here.
Yeah its Primal Evolution Sorry too many windows open.
Primal Sorcerers should be more common. They have more spells with Will saves now, and some of the bloodlines really broaden out the spell mix, plus you can just take a good spell from where ever you want anyway. They do work as a straight caster. And you get to be Charisma based...
Oracles and Sorcerers seem to have the most freedom to cherry pick spells from other traditions, so I'm guessing if you want to summon all the things those are your best shots. But be warned that there probably won't be much use in summoning creatures below your 2nd highest spell level, so you should plan to have other options as well.Can you explain that to me, please?Which part? The cherry picking comment is because oracles and sorcerers both have feats to let them pick spells outside of their tradition. Divine access and cross blooded, IIRC.
The slot level comment is because a summoned monster with a top slot will usually be 3 or 4 levels below you already, which is right on the cusp of being relevant. Any lower and it probably won't be strong enough to justify the actions spent.
Where did they re-do the cross blooded sorcerer?
Where did they re-do the cross blooded sorcerer?Oracles and Sorcerers seem to have the most freedom to cherry pick spells from other traditions, so I'm guessing if you want to summon all the things those are your best shots. But be warned that there probably won't be much use in summoning creatures below your 2nd highest spell level, so you should plan to have other options as well.Can you explain that to me, please?Which part? The cherry picking comment is because oracles and sorcerers both have feats to let them pick spells outside of their tradition. Divine access and cross blooded, IIRC.
The slot level comment is because a summoned monster with a top slot will usually be 3 or 4 levels below you already, which is right on the cusp of being relevant. Any lower and it probably won't be strong enough to justify the actions spent.
They haven't. It is not possible to belong to two sorcerer bloodlines.
But there are feats that let the Sorcerer get spells from any tradition.For starters some of the bloodlines do that expliclty, eg Nymph opens up some extra charm magic for the Primal Sorcerer. Then there is Blessed Blood. But we are really talking about Crossblooded Evolution and Greater Crossblooded Evolution. Which just allow any sorcerer to pick up spells from anywhere.
I need to read up on those! Thank you!
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
With the conjuror specialization?Best summoning class is the wizard - summons are generally only good out of top slots and the wizard gets the most of them.
Second best is primal sorcerer, same reason, 5 top slots with primal evolution.
Other than that, if you want other tradition summoning, I'd still suggest sorcerer.
Yes, ignore the focus spell its trash (the advanced is decent though - pick that up). You get the extra slots and spell blending to get 5-6 top slots for summoning.
I wrote a guide on summoning that has all my thoughts on this.
That guide is helpful. Gracias!
I do like the 1e witch and their cackle ability. I have not yet played a 2E witch. My previous witch believed she got her powers from Asmodeus and she would summon infernal monsters to help the party. I wanted her to get that PRC from the Book of Fiends but she was not LE when they re-did it.
One of my favorite characters ever!
Primal Sorcerers should be more common. They have more spells with Will saves now, and some of the bloodlines really broaden out the spell mix, plus you can just take a good spell from where ever you want anyway. They do work as a straight caster. And you get to be Charisma based...
The main reason that I (and my players too) don't take divine and primal sorcerers is because their's very low AC. Once the sorcerers have no armor chassis and dex aren't their key stat the only thing that can increase this a little in 1º level is Mage Armor. That's one of the main reason we only take arcane/occult traditions with sorcerers if not the chance of being killed by a critical is very high.
That's also one of the main reason why many primal spellcasters take druid. Not only because their focus spells are good but also because they are way more resistant. The same happens for clerics and oracles.
Yes, ignore the focus spell its trash (the advanced is decent though - pick that up). You get the extra slots and spell blending to get 5-6 top slots for summoning.
That's my point too. If you want to focus in summon creatures during mostly fights you probably want to have the maximum top spellslot you can have. In this cases the wizard is the better.
I do like the 1e witch and their cackle ability. I have not yet played a 2E witch. My previous witch believed she got her powers from Asmodeus and she would summon infernal monsters to help the party. I wanted her to get that PRC from the Book of Fiends but she was not LE when they re-did it.
One of my favorite characters ever!
Unfortunately the 2E's witch is way subpar due their lack of spellslots. Cackle still very good but the mostly 3-action sustainable spells like summons usually requires that you use your best spellslots and having only 2-3 you are too limited to only being really useful in some boss battles and yet usually these fights the opponent probably can kill your summons too fast making the things even more frustrating.
Primal Sorcerers should be more common. They have more spells with Will saves now, and some of the bloodlines really broaden out the spell mix, plus you can just take a good spell from where ever you want anyway. They do work as a straight caster. And you get to be Charisma based...The main reason that I (and my players too) don't take divine and primal sorcerers is because their's very low AC. Once the sorcerers have no armor chassis and dex aren't their key stat the only thing that can increase this a little in 1º level is Mage Armor. That's one of the main reason we only take arcane/occult traditions with sorcerers if not the chance of being killed by a critical is very high.
They are no different to any other sorcerer or wizard in that regard. Honestly its trivial to pick up light armour proficiency via a general feat or a rogue MC. Until you get your DEX higher. So definitely not a mark against primal sorcerers particularily
That's also one of the main reason why many primal spellcasters take druid. Not only because their focus spells are good but also because they are way more resistant. The same happens for clerics and oracles.
Yeah the Cleric has all those free top level heals, and the Druid has a broad set of good focus spells. Likewise the Bard is obviously great. All of these have better hitpoints and tyically better proficiencies. Pure arcane casters on the other hand only have to worry about the Witch, and while the Witch is not terrible, its not great either. Focus spells are medicore, hitpoints and proficiencies are basically as bad as the Wizard, familiar is Ok but not great. Basically if you what to be a full arcane caster its only the Sorcerer and the Wizard.
This is the thing. Make your choice but the Primal Sorcerer will be a better pure caster than say a Storm Druid. There are some very good abilities in those feat and bloodlines, plus being a spontaneous caster means you get to use more of your spells. The Storm Druid is going to have different options and more staying power. It all gets very muddy when you look at multiclassing.
They are no different to any other sorcerer or wizard in that regard. Honestly its trivial to pick up light armour proficiency via a general feat or a rogue MC. Until you get your DEX higher. So definitely not a mark against primal sorcerers particularily
No. This is not so trivial if you start at lvl 1. This make this locks the divine/primal sorcerers have to choose a human (if you choose to be trained in light armour proficiency) or an ancient elf (if you choose to MC like champion to receive more heavier armor training) if not you will have to survive the 1º level with a very low AC until level 2 where's you can put a MC or Sentinel dedication or even wait 3º level to take light armour proficiency as general feat.
This aren't trivial because will lock your build choices if you want to be a different ancestry than human/elf or if you want to use a different archetype because the restriction that you need at last 2 archetype feats to be allowed to choose other.
This is the thing. Make your choice but the Primal Sorcerer will be a better pure caster than say a Storm Druid. There are some very good abilities in those feat and bloodlines, plus being a spontaneous caster means you get to use more of your spells. The Storm Druid is going to have different options and more staying power. It all gets very muddy when you look at multiclassing.
I agree but that's the point i'm showing. Probably if a player wants to full specialize to summon he will prefer a wizard over the sorcerer. They have same class chassis but wizard is able to use at last 1 more top level spell since the beginning what's helps to summon creature in more fights. But if the player don't want to focus that much in just summon this player probably will take in more consideration the chassis diference from other classes and bloodlines probably changing everything.
I cannot talk about others people decision but these are the choices that I would probably make. If I want to focus in summon creatures I probably choose the wizard because the qty of top level summons I can cast or I will take a completely opposite direction choosing to be a druid or a battle oracle and only summoning in more decisive fights.
Positioning is imo the most important part of being a backliner, and the AC is not that relevant as for a combatant.
I agree but this also depends from how the GM control the opponents.
As GM I'm little brutal! :P In general my animals predators creatures tends to choose the weakest player where's they have better chance to feed off (thanks to animal life documentaries) and my intelligent creatures usually choose to fight efficiently choosing the mostly dangerous and easier to takedown players like spellcasters and healers. Just my mindless creatures attacks the first player on sight.
This choices not only gives more realism but also make's the martials to focus more in strategies and position to protect the weakest party members and weakest to keeps more distance when this is possible but in many cases this is not so easy. Many dungeon invasions gives them little space to move and keep the distance. For other side they learned that they can use small corridors and cenário objects as cover and now they made good positional tactics using more the cenários aspects in closed spaces but this also makes them to worry a little more in their own defensive abilities what's makes them to take a serious consideration about class defensive capabilities when they choose a class not only take the best DPS.
They are no different to any other sorcerer or wizard in that regard. Honestly its trivial to pick up light armour proficiency via a general feat or a rogue MC. Until you get your DEX higher. So definitely not a mark against primal sorcerers particularilyNo. This is not so trivial if you start at lvl 1. This make this locks the divine/primal sorcerers have to choose a human (if you choose to be trained in light armour proficiency) or an ancient elf (if you choose to MC like champion to receive more heavier armor training) if not you will have to survive the 1º level with a very low AC until level 2 where's you can put a MC or Sentinel dedication or even wait 3º level to take light armour proficiency as general feat.
Why are you picking on Primal in particular - is it just because Primal/Divine don't get mage armor?
I think you will find that you can cope OK level 1 being two points of AC behind. Everyone can fix it at level 2 Rogue/Sentinel/Champion MC, then retrain it out at level 3 to the general feat armor proficiency.
Yes I get that only human, elf, half elf, half orc, anadi can do it at level 1 Well conrasu can be quite tricky, but they can get around some of this too. It is only a small fraction of your options in PF2 because we have so many options - 5 or 6 out of 28 ancestries. Casting mage armour only gives you 1 point extra of AC anyway.
You are missing the point. When you play a squishy caster you are vulnerable in combat, especially for the first level or so. Yes there are monsters and scenarios that will just do you in. Thats actually true for every character.
Just accept it and work with the party. Heck plate armor is a level 2 item. Lots of characters take 3-4 levels to get the basics together.
After a while you will get it sorted out, but unless you are one of these madman melee sorcerers you should still be playing very carefully. The full caster has always been a bit squishy, and still is. Lets face reality, as you go up levels the AC of the martials is going to get better than yours. You will remain a soft target.
Honestly I would be happy to play without mage armor or one of the races I mentioned. I still prefer Sprite with Corgi for all my casters at the moment. Yes I'm a bit of an optimiser, but you can't let it dominate all your thinking. It is not such a big deal for one level. Sadly I mostly GM at the moment.
Primal Sorcerers are perhaps the most fragile because unlike Druids, they don't have armor, 8 h.p., & Shield Block; and unlike other Sorcerers, they don't have the Shield Cantrip (a hefty bump in h.p./combat IMO).
I'd pick Shield up via an innate spell.
But dang are those Elemental Bloodline Focus Spells great! Using those for some of your offense helps free up slots for summons. If forced to move (a common occurrence for a caster), you can still Sustain and get off a 1-action blast.
Casting mage armour only gives you 1 point extra of AC anyway.
The main problem of this 1 AC point is critical rate. For example. Imagine a level 1 party facing some Orc Brutes. These orcs have +7 to hit, two of them are a low threat encounter. For any class with at last 17 AC they can only crit with 20. But a lvl 1 primal sorcerer have only 16 AC (+3 from DEX, +1 level, +2 no armor proficiency) so for these class the critical rate is the double. This critical will have 2d6+6 of damage. So if one of this orcs attack and hit the sorcerer with 19-20 and roll more than 3 in damage dices they will down the sorcerer in one hit! This is the double the critical chance and is just a lvl 0 orc, imagine this with a stronger creature.
So when your AC is already low any +1 will make a huge difference.
I know that are others ways to gain more AC like use a shield but my point is when you already have a low AC in PF2 where's the crit increases with hit rate usually gain 2 spellslots only after level 15 don't compensate this risk.
As backing to the topic is how I said if you want just have more top level spell to cast things like summon still better do a wizard because it already gain this extra slot since the first level because the additional school spellslot + Drain Bonded Item and you will have a better AC than primal sorcerer.
No you are being paranoid. I'm aware of the value of a +1. A sorcerer is not the tip of the spear. They get out of combat at every chance they can get. They can afford to be off in their optimisation for a short while.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I know our parties tend to scout ahead and be the one hitting the weak targets rather than the one being stalked. So the casters are usually able to stay away from combat as the other classes ambush the enemy. Anyone can buy stealth and build up their dexterity. Since Stealth can be used for initiative, it's a good investment to build up dexterity and stealth skills for almost any class.
Almost every character I make takes Stealth. It's just a great skill in PF2. A group that move quietly is a staple of fantasy.
So we don't worry as much about the casters getting hammered since we control where the battle starts the vast majority of the time.
Can't sorcerers also use long spears?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I will also say that the best class for summoning is a Polymath Bard with Wizard dedication. They have access to all Summon spells, access to augmented summons, plenty of buffs and support abilities to make the summons actually do something. And most importantly of all.... they actually "summon" things.
The "Summoner" despite the name is not actually very good at summoning. Unless you fall in the camp of "manifesting == summon despite not counting as such for anything". When people say it has the "most feats", they fail to mention that only 2 feats actually deal with summons. The other 2 feats, gives you a few more slots for summoning, but still way less than all other casters outside Magus. (The feats also don't give you access to actual 10th lv summon spells).
Thank you!