Now normally animate dead is limited to 6 bodies as per touch spells, however reach Metamagic changes the range, so I am wondering can you then just raise anything within range up to your HD limit??
The limit of twice caster level in HD is independent of range.
Animate Dead has both a range of touch and a target of one or more corpses touched. Reach spell changes the range from touch to a higher range but does not alter the target. That means you still have to touch the corpses you are animating. Because of that Reach spell will not work with animate dead.
Interestingly, when the magic rules discuss how many targets may be touched in a round they specifically call out "creatures" or "willing creatures" we don't have a RAW (that I can see) limit on number of objects touched on a round.
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Animate Dead has both a range of touch and a target of one or more corpses touched. Reach spell changes the range from touch to a higher range but does not alter the target. That means you still have to touch the corpses you are animating. Because of that Reach spell will not work with animate dead.
By that rationale cure light wounds also cannot be used with reach metamagic.
Range touch
Target creature touched
Reach changes the range of the spell, and specifically mentions touch attack spells change to ranged touch attack spells. While it does not specifically state that touch spells (that are not an attack) cannot be changed to a ranged (non-attack) touch, that is really the only way to read the feat, as otherwise all non-attack touch spells cannot actually be increased in range.
As for the original question, the base touch rules state
You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action.
Given that a character could have 8 other creatures around them (not including flying creatures in the squares above them), the limit of 6 does not appear to be a limit on creatures that can be in touch range, but rather a hard limit imposed during spellcasting. Reach metamagic does not change this hard limit.
The question then remains, are corpses objects or are they [dead] creatures? IMO, they are both depending on context. Eg, you could cast raise dead on a dead creature which has a target of dead creature (not a target of corpse, or object). I believe for animate dead, they also count as creatures (which are dead) as you cannot animate dead [any object] (swords, doors, candles, etc), but only objects which were once creatures (eg, dead creatures).
The limit is 6 regardless of reach metamagic. Reach just allows you to target up to 6 creatures further away.
A dead creature is unconscious. And an unconscious creature is considered willing for most spells.
Now normally animate dead is limited to 6 bodies as per touch spells, however reach Metamagic changes the range, so I am wondering can you then just raise anything within range up to your HD limit??
Ok I see what you try to say since animate dead is a touch spell and your reach is 5ft square you can only touch the 6 square that surrounds you. The metamagic feat reach increase this area of effects in my opinion and let you increase the number of animate in 1 spell but it can't increase the maximum number of the spell to control
The spell have the maximum of 6 but that was before the reach spell metamagic was create so is up of consideration of the gm to allow this change of the spell
If reach metamagic can increase the number of targets, what about more natural reach? If the logic is just how many things/people are close enough then longer arms should help.
Wait, 6 squares? Shouldn't it be 8? Two on the horizontal, two on the vertical, and 4 on the diagonals.
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Where are you getting this limit of only being able to create 6 undead at a time from?
Probably from the 'Holding the Charge' rules:
Source
PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 183
Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
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This is part of the 'Touch Spells in Combat' rules, so I'm not certain it is supposed to apply in this particular circumstance (OP did not specify if this was in or out of combat).
Wait, 6 squares? Shouldn't it be 8? Two on the horizontal, two on the vertical, and 4 on the diagonals.
Well if you use hexagonal space it will be only 6
But you are right it was 8 not 6 my bad calculation
Interestingly, when the magic rules discuss how many targets may be touched in a round they specifically call out "creatures" or "willing creatures" we don't have a RAW (that I can see) limit on number of objects touched on a round.
Dead creatures are still creatures with the dead condition, and as such are also treated as objects, but are technically still creatures.
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Reach Spell (Metamagic)
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Benefit: You can alter a spell with a range of touch, close, or medium to increase its range to a higher range category, using the following order: touch, close, medium, and long.
Let's see what changes between a range of touch and a range of close.
Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a fullround
action.
Close: The spell reaches as far as 25 feet away from you. The maximum range increases by 5 feet for every two full caster levels.
Medium: The spell reaches as far as 100 feet + 10 feet per caster level.
Long: The spell reaches as far as 400 feet + 40 feet per caster level.
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Do you see any rule about the number of targets in the second citation? Increasing the range to close reduces the number of targets that can be affected, it doesn't increase it.
Animate Dead
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Range touch
Targets one or more corpses touched
Add Reach metamagic:
Animate Dead
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Range close
Targets one or more corpses ranged touched
As increasing the range doesn't give the caster a chance to touch more targets, we must look to Targets to see if we get more targets.
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets.
You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
To see how many targets can be affected we must look at the target as defined in the spell.
This spell turns corpses into undead skeletons or zombies that obey your spoken commands.
Hmm. Nothing useful. The only part of the rules that allows you to touch multiple targets with Animate Dead is the one in the Touch range rules.
So: we have nothing that says that we can make more than the single ranged touch we get from a normal spell with a ranged of touch.
My conclusion is that by turning Animate Dead into a spell with a range of close, you reduce the number of targets you can touch. You can make a single ranged touch instead of touching 6 targets, as normal for a touch range spell.
I'm not really certain we've reached much of an answer here, I'm seeing a lot of flawed and contradictory logic. It would seem to me that with a range of touch only 6 corpses can be raised as per the definition of the range if "touch", close range however is any target or targets within 25ft plus 5ft per 2 caster levels. The target of the spell stayes "one or more corpses touched" however we are no longer touching the corpses and no longer limited to 6 as the range is "close" not touch or ranged touch. My conclusion is that the target is stil "one or more corpses" but the range is "close" so this can only meant that corpses within the range of close up to an HD of twice your caster level can be raised with a single casting.
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close range however is any target or targets within 25ft plus 5ft per 2 caster levels.
RAW, it doesn't work that way. Close is a Range, but it doesn't change the target line or the area of effect of the spell. The Metamagic changes the Range (and that remote the part that allows you to touch 6 willing targets, as that is part of the rules for spells with a range of touch) and changes how you touch the target: "Spells modified by this feat that require melee touch attacks instead require ranged touch attacks."
"Melee touch attacks" are all touch you use to deliver a spell, even when the spell isn't meant to do damage or to be an attack. It is one of the quirks of the rules, as there aren't separate rules for "touches that aren't attacks".
As it becomes a ranged touch attack, it uses all the rules of ranged touch attacks and those don't give you multiple touches unless the text of the spell says so.
To put it another way, you want to make a touch spell an area-of-effect spell with a feat that changes only the range at which the spell works.
Modifying Animate Dead with Reach-Metamagic is probably not a good idea. If the character is a sorcerer or wizard the best way to do this would be to cast Spectral Hand. Spectral Hand can deliver touch attack spells of 4th level or lower at range. This does not make it a ranged touch spell, so it has none of the problems of using the feat Reach Spell.
So all of this discussion is well and good, and all of it is representative of RAW, but I think the intent of the spell is to be able to create as many undead as you have available corpses, with the total HD created being the actual limit.
Close: The spell reaches as far as 25 feet away from you. The maximum range increases by 5 feet for every two full caster levels.
Medium: The spell reaches as far as 100 feet + 10 feet per caster level.
Long: The spell reaches as far as 400 feet + 40 feet per caster level.
...Do you see any rule about the number of targets in the second citation? Increasing the range to close reduces the number of targets that can be affected, it doesn't increase it.
I don't see any mention of number of targets for a close spell. So I'm not sure why you are stating that the number of allowed targets would be reduced as that would be a change to the "number of targets".
Am I forgetting some other rules reference regarding ranged touch spells that defaults it to 1 target for all ranged touch spells unless the spell specifically allow more? And is there a reason animate dead, which allows more that one target, wouldn't fall under the specifics of a spell allowing more than one target?
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Close: The spell reaches as far as 25 feet away from you. The maximum range increases by 5 feet for every two full caster levels.
Medium: The spell reaches as far as 100 feet + 10 feet per caster level.
Long: The spell reaches as far as 400 feet + 40 feet per caster level.
...Do you see any rule about the number of targets in the second citation? Increasing the range to close reduces the number of targets that can be affected, it doesn't increase it.
I don't see any mention of number of targets for a close spell. So I'm not sure why you are stating that the number of allowed targets would be reduced as that would be a change to the "number of targets".
Am I forgetting some other rules reference regarding ranged touch spells that defaults it to 1 target for all ranged touch spells unless the spell specifically allow more? And is there a reason animate dead, which allows more that one target, wouldn't fall under the specifics of a spell allowing more than one target?
There is a specific rule that allows touching 6 friends (and I would consider immobile corpses equivalent to friends). Otherwise, you default to what you get from a touch/ranged touch spell: a single free attack/touch.
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action.
Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn.
You can't take multiple attacks without Holding the spell and using an attack action unless the spell explicitly makes an exception.
Note that spells that give multiple touches have a specific rule too:
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
...stuff...
I basically agree with all of that.
But you have not addressed the core issue.
Targets one or more corpses touched
Making it ranged does not change the targets to one corpse (range) touched. It simply allows you to 'touch' from range. Being able to hold the charge or not also has nothing to do with the allowed number of targets.
Nothing it the ranged touch rule says you only get 1 target. You get as many as the spell allows. This is certainly the case with ranged attack spells
These attacks are made as part of the spell...
plural attacks.
I don't find any indication to suggest that non-attack spells would be more limited on the number of targets by being ranged.
As an aside, I agree with TxSam88, that given context, animate dead probably should not be limited to any specific number of targets - only to undead HD based on caster level.
Yea but if we go for the rules if you change your touch spell to ranged touch spell you will be limited by the base attack of the caster and the spell will be lost by the end of your turn leaving yo to create only 1-2 undead (3 whit Haste)
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...stuff...I basically agree with all of that.
But you have not addressed the core issue.
Targets one or more corpses touched
Making it ranged does not change the targets to one corpse (range) touched. It simply allows you to 'touch' from range. Being able to hold the charge or not also has nothing to do with the allowed number of targets.
Nothing it the ranged touch rule says you only get 1 target. You get as many as the spell allows. These is certainly the case with ranged attack spells
These attacks are made as part of the spell...
plural attacks.
I don't find any indication to suggest that non-attack spells would be limited on the number of targets by being ranged.
As an aside, I agree with TxSam88, that given context, animate dead probably should not be limited to any specific number of targets - only to undead HD based on caster level.
You get one free touch/ranged touch attack unless the spell explicitly says you get more. Animate Dead doesn't say so.
The other option to get more than one touch is for Touch spells only Ranged Touch spells aren't touch spells, so it doesn't apply if you modify the spell with the Reach metamagic feat.Not all the metamagic feats are useful with all the spells.
Not all the metamagic feats are useful with all the spells.
This is a valid statement. Alternately, however, and meaning no disrespect, I think it's just as valid to say that this is one of those instances where insisting on a strictly RAW answer in this fashion is a waste of everyone's time.
Animate Dead predates Pathfinder as a game. The Reach Spell metamagic feat post-dates the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. Rather than argue that an 9th level Wizard should only get 1/9 (if using a human zombie) or 1/18 (if using a human skeleton) of the spell's effect for the privilege of animating from from 25 feet away (in effect making it Animate Dead, Lesser, but using a spell slot two levels higher), perhaps it might be more beneficial to direct the OP to Pathfinder Society veterans, who might have gotten guidance as part of organized play.
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I feel that getting a corpse with more HD, even a riding dog or a horse if nothing better is available, will serve the OP way better than adding a few more base skeletons or zombies.
In Pathfinder more HD means better BAB and BAB matters a lot.
Raising 9 zombies or 18 skeletons in the middle of a fight will mean getting 9 or 18 ineffective attacks and 9 or 18 targets for that Fireball that feel almost useless against serious targets.
You get one free touch/ranged touch attack unless the spell explicitly says you get more. Animate Dead doesn't say so.
The other option to get more than one touch is for Touch spells only Ranged Touch spells aren't touch spells, so it doesn't apply if you modify the spell with the Reach metamagic feat.
But animate dead is not an attack spell. Changing it to a ranged spell does not make it become an attack spell. So the rules regarding changing a touch attack to a ranged touch attack do not apply.
And the spell explicitly says you get more than one touch. (Targets one or more corpses touched). So even if it were a touch attack spell, the targets allowed by the spell itself are not changed just because it would be changed to a ranged touch attack spell.
You get one free touch/ranged touch attack unless the spell explicitly says you get more.
I fully agree with this. Do you agree that animate deads allowed targets is "one or more corpses touched"?
Do you see the logical disconnect here (even if you don't necessarily agree, or that I'm reading it wrong, or something)? From my POV, your telling me that the spell has to allow more than one target, but then you are ignoring that the spell explicitly allows more than one target.
This isn't really any different than scorching ray cast by a high level caster. The rays can all be used on a single target, or split between multiple targets - eg, the spell creates one or more rays, which ultimately translates to one or more targets (when you have more than 1 ray available). Ranged animate dead likewise allows one or more "rays of necromantic energy" to strike multiple targets simultaneously.
I feel that getting a corpse with more HD, even a riding dog or a horse if nothing better is available, will serve the OP way better than adding a few more base skeletons or zombies.
In Pathfinder more HD means better BAB and BAB matters a lot.Raising 9 zombies or 18 skeletons in the middle of a fight will mean getting 9 or 18 ineffective attacks and 9 or 18 targets for that Fireball that feel almost useless against serious targets.
Right, but that's not just subjective in terms of tactics, Diego, but also assuming a lot with regard to available materials. Only very specific types of skeletons and zombies can be created by Animate Dead, and the latter require a massive corpse to even come close to the maximum number of Hit Dice our hypothetical 9th level wizard could bring forth.