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You're right, he said "we have gay employees, some of whom are my friends".
I'm not sure I'd say that's better.
No, but again, it's a misinterpretation of what he actually said. And I know, semantics, semantics, but that's what poisoned this and other discussions from the very start. Because a lot of people from both sides only hear what they want to hear, and everything that would force them to rethink their stance if only for the slightest bit gets completely ignored.
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No, but again, it's a misinterpretation of what he actually said. And I know, semantics, semantics, but that's what poisoned this and other discussions from the very start. Because a lot of people from both sides only hear what they want to hear, and everything that would force them to rethink their stance if only for the slightest bit gets completely ignored.You're right, he said "we have gay employees, some of whom are my friends".
I'm not sure I'd say that's better.
Here is exactly what he said.
Accusations that I have used offensive slurs about members of the staff are categorically FALSE. Many LGBTQIA+ members of the Paizo staff are close friends of mine, and I would never talk that way about anyone on our staff or in our community.
Tell me how we're misinterpreting this.
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Thing is "we hear and promise to do better" is what every company says when they do something wrong.
Very, very few ever actually follow through.
On the flipside, when specific courses of actions are set forward by the higher ups, they tend to at least meet the minimum amount of effort required to meet those goals they set.
Vagueness is understandable for an off-the-cuff response, but at the same time means absolutely nothing. It's proof of neither malice nor contrition.
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Tell me how we're misinterpreting this."I cannot be homophobic because I have gay friends".
Jeff doesn't defend against accusations of being homophobic. He defends against accusations of having used offensive slurs about members of the staff.
I just read somewhere that you're an award-winning writer, so I shouldn't have to explain to you that those are two very different things. Jeff could be lying about those slurs (I wouldn't know), he could be telling the truth and STILL be a homophobe (again, I wouldn't know), or he could even speak the truth and not be one.
And all that detail gets left out with the aforementioned abbreviated intentional misinterpretation just to put him in a corner he might not deserve to be put in.
It is a defense against the use of slurs, yes. However, I feel that while they don't technically overlap, they share enough similarities that it's a very common read for most people.
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I rather let Paizo address the issues that need to be fixed before writing them off as a company. These things take time, money and training. Neither of which can be done simply with of one fingers or the next day. Then again many here live in the digital world rather than the real world and expect miracles, now yesterday. This will all fall on deaf years as it’s better to keep tossing chum to blood infested waters.
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It's well understood that this is a process that takes time, especially with Gencon taking place. But silence also allows this to be easily forgotten, which doesn't benefit those who may be negatively impacted. Trying to silence dissent because it makes you uncomfortable is doing no one any favors.
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I rather let Paizo address the issues that need to be fixed before writing them off as a company. These things take time, money and training. Neither of which can be done simply with of one fingers or the next day. Then again many here live in the digital world rather than the real world and expect miracles, now yesterday. This will all fall on deaf years as it’s better to keep tossing chum to blood infested waters.
You can stop talking down to us now.
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I rather let Paizo address the issues that need to be fixed before writing them off as a company. These things take time, money and training. Neither of which can be done simply with of one fingers or the next day. Then again many here live in the digital world rather than the real world and expect miracles, now yesterday. This will all fall on deaf years as it’s better to keep tossing chum to blood infested waters.
Where the hell is this feeding frenzy in blood infested waters that you’re referring to. This is barely even getting heated except for the intentional efforts of trolls and bad faith actors.
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I rather let Paizo address the issues that need to be fixed before writing them off as a company. These things take time, money and training. Neither of which can be done simply with of one fingers or the next day. Then again many here live in the digital world rather than the real world and expect miracles, now yesterday. This will all fall on deaf years as it’s better to keep tossing chum to blood infested waters.
As far as I'm aware, nobody has "written them off as a company." People are VERY aware that Paizo is a company, if Jeff's statement did anything, it made people abundantly clear about that.
A company is not entitled to a customer's wallet. If customers choose to postpone their business until conditions approve, then only apparent action will change that. A customer is entitled to share why they are choosing to postpone their business if they so wish and if the company chooses to take action on it, then all the better.
If a company has an interest in maintaining honest and open communication then a third party consultation or arbitration group isn't something to scoff at. Many businesses use their services regularly to keep themselves honest not because they aren't honest, but to eliminate any possibility of biases, cliques or other situations that can be poisonous to the business. Whatever initial costs may be, the long term benefits speak for themselves.
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I dunno bud, but to me "I wouldn't use a slur because I have close friends in the LGBTQIA+ community" is the same as "I can't be homophobic because I have gay friends". Clearly YOU don't think that those two comments intersect. To me, a bi trans woman, they do.
Really, the statement was more "these people are my close friends, of course I wouldn't use slurs against them".
I don't know if that's saying more or less, honestly. It's poorly phrased in a lot of ways.
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I rather let Paizo address the issues that need to be fixed before writing them off as a company. These things take time, money and training. Neither of which can be done simply with of one fingers or the next day. Then again many here live in the digital world rather than the real world and expect miracles, now yesterday. This will all fall on deaf years as it’s better to keep tossing chum to blood infested waters.Where the hell is this feeding frenzy in blood infested waters that you’re referring to. This is barely even getting heated except for the intentional efforts of trolls and bad faith actors.
I think it was getting pretty dumb early on (and still is in very isolated spots) when people were going "we demand the immediate resignation of Jeff and Tonya and Erik".
Thankfully we've gotten past that now.
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I think it was getting pretty dumb early on (and still is in very isolated spots) when people were going "we demand the immediate resignation of Jeff and Tonya and Erik".
Thankfully we've gotten past that now.
That poster has been here for days talking like we’re all pulling our hair out demanding Paizo do what we want or we’ll burn it all to the ground - that just isn’t happening and they are well aware of it.
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However, I feel that while they don't technically overlap, they share enough similarities that it's a very common read for most people.
Which is kind of my problem with that whole situation. It shouldn't be about overwriting things with "common reads", it should be actual listening from both sides and trying to understand the nuance and complexity, especially if we're not fully in the know about something.
Now of course my post got deleted so now I don't even know if I'm supposed to be the troll mentioned later on or if I just caused something I didn't foresee to happen.
If it's the first, that would kinda prove my point, because that would mean that suddenly I am the enemy because I'm not in full agreement with everything that was said.
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Posts are deleted by Paizo. Not by any poster or customer.
Why would you be considered an enemy by Paizo ?
I was talking about the troll thing. I have no idea why I would be considered an enemy by anyone. Still has happened from time to time. Often from both sides of an argument.
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Probably just quoted a problematic post.
Paizo are moderating pretty lightly given the topic.
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I was talking about the troll thing. I have no idea why I would be considered an enemy by anyone. Still has happened from time to time. Often from both sides of an argument.
Pretty sure I'm one of the folks considered trolling since most of my posts in this thread were deleted (probably flagged by the usual suspects).
Funny enough, if you look at the posts with the most drama over the years, I'll bet it's the same folks doing the flagging found at the center of It.
I just don't understand, if you're "done" with Paizo and no longer support them in anyway - as some have stated - why not leave? You've stated your point and made your decision with your wallet, your comments are etched in stone (so to speak), what else is there for you to say?
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I just don't understand, if you're "done" with Paizo and no longer support them in anyway - as some have stated - why not leave? You've stated your point and made your decision with your wallet, your comments are etched in stone (so to speak), what else is there for you to say?
Because they're waiting around to see what action Paizo as a company actually takes. Posting on the message boards is free, so there's no harm in monitoring the situation to see if the response is good enough to actually reengage.
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I just don't understand, if you're "done" with Paizo and no longer support them in anyway - as some have stated - why not leave? You've stated your point and made your decision with your wallet, your comments are etched in stone (so to speak), what else is there for you to say?
Some of us feel this is a community we helped create. We want to make it better. About the only lever a customer has to effect change is not supporting the actual company with money. That doesn’t mean the game, the creatives, or the community are bad. There is plenty left to say.
“If you don’t like it you can just leave” is not good optics. J/S.
Probably just quoted a problematic post.
Paizo are moderating pretty lightly given the topic.
Yeah, surprised they have let these threads roll for a while though I think it won't be much longer.
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I just don't understand, if you're "done" with Paizo and no longer support them in anyway - as some have stated - why not leave? You've stated your point and made your decision with your wallet, your comments are etched in stone (so to speak), what else is there for you to say?
The purpose is not to close the door; it is to be clear that funding will be witheld until corrective action is taken - that the opprobrium will involve more than words and letting things slide by "giving the benefit of the doubt".
That concrete action will be rewarded, but that there is a cost to inaction or empty promises. "Do Better"
After all, how else does the consumer get their voice heard and taken seriously, on matters that *they* take seriously?
This Is The Way
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@feelsbradman
I'm still here because I like participating and reading the Pathfinder 1e AP threads. I also might try to get into a pbp. And yes, I voted with my wallet on 2e.
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Everybody engaging in Paizo-bashing here needs to take a deep breath and a step back.
Yes, mistakes were made. No, we'll never know the whole story. Heck, I doubt if even the people involved directly in this situation know the whole story.
The most heartening part of this whole crisis is that the top folks at Paizo have admitted to making mistakes and pledged to do better in the future.
If this incident makes some people take a knee-jerk reaction against the company as a whole, that really saddens me. Paizo has gone above and beyond in supporting diversity and inclusion, and the fact that top management hasn't always managed to keep to the straight and narrow path of virtue only shows that they are human, with human weaknesses and shortcomings, just like lesser mortals.
I for one will *continue* to support Päizo, and continue to support their efforts to foster inclusion and diversity in our hobby.
Thank you Erik, Jeff, Jason and others for being so forthcoming and for trying to better in the future. Thank you Sara, Diego, Crystal, Jessica, and Lissa for helping to not only bring us great content, but to champion important social issues that affect us all. Thank you Owen, Jim Sonja, Mark, Aaron for weighing in and helping maintain balance in these difficult times. My condolences and support to those who lost their jobs, or lost less tangible but no less important things like respect, trust and confidence in this whole situation.
Thank you Paizo, for facing these obstacles and shortcomings and trying to do better in future.
Cheers, --- Wheldrake (aka Phil Benz)
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Everybody engaging in Paizo-bashing here needs to take a deep breath and a step back.
I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
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Everybody engaging in Paizo-bashing here needs to take a deep breath and a step back.
Yes, mistakes were made. No, we'll never know the whole story. Heck, I doubt if even the people involved directly in this situation know the whole story.
The most heartening part of this whole crisis is that the top folks at Paizo have admitted to making mistakes and pledged to do better in the future.
If this incident makes some people take a knee-jerk reaction against the company as a whole, that really saddens me. Paizo has gone above and beyond in supporting diversity and inclusion, and the fact that top management hasn't always managed to keep to the straight and narrow path of virtue only shows that they are human, with human weaknesses and shortcomings, just like lesser mortals.
I for one will *continue* to support Päizo, and continue to support their efforts to foster inclusion and diversity in our hobby.
Thank you Erik, Jeff, Jason and others for being so forthcoming and for trying to better in the future. Thank you Sara, Diego, Crystal, Jessica, and Lissa for helping to not only bring us great content, but to champion important social issues that affect us all. Thank you Owen, Jim Sonja, Mark, Aaron for weighing in and helping maintain balance in these difficult times. My condolences and support to those who lost their jobs, or lost less tangible but no less important things like respect, trust and confidence in this whole situation.
Thank you Paizo, for facing these obstacles and shortcomings and trying to do better in future.
Cheers, --- Wheldrake (aka Phil Benz)
The creative team has absolutely done that. This is about the management and internal business practices falling short of the representation work appearing in their products, which is why its so disappointing to people. The products seemed to show Paizo “got it” and now it seems, in the real world, they did not.
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I'd like to point out that while Erik and Jason admitted to mistakes and talked about how they specifically would improve upon those mistakes, Jeff did not. Jeff talked about how he can't talk about anything, and how he believes the company is better now than it was five years ago, and how it will be better in five more years than it is now. And Tonya has been completely silent other than a post where she explained that she moderated out talk of the Civil War and GamerGate.
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I'd like to point out that while Erik and Jason admitted to mistakes and talked about how they specifically would improve upon those mistakes, Jeff did not. Jeff talked about how he can't talk about anything, and how he believes the company is better now than it was five years ago, and how it will be better in five more years than it is now. And Tonya has been completely silent other than a post where she explained that she moderated out talk of the Civil War and GamerGate.
Where did Tonya post that?
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I'd like to point out that while Erik and Jason admitted to mistakes and talked about how they specifically would improve upon those mistakes, Jeff did not. Jeff talked about how he can't talk about anything, and how he believes the company is better now than it was five years ago, and how it will be better in five more years than it is now. And Tonya has been completely silent other than a post where she explained that she moderated out talk of the Civil War and GamerGate.Where did Tonya post that?
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I acknowledged the point he was trying to make. I never said anyone should leave.
Hell you can post day and night 24/7/365 days a year.
Just do not tell me what I can or cannot post simply because I disagree with the point of the thread and the majority of the posters.