MCD Wizard and Hand of the Apprentice

[DougSeay]

Is there an official path (PFS Legal) for a MCD Wizard to get Hand of the Apprentice? My understanding is that it requires a Wizard to be a Universalist, but that isn't a school, so Arcane School Spell cannot grant it.

So maybe MCD Wizards are Universalist before taking Arcane School Spell (which picks a school) which means they could just pick it up with Basic Arcana. That means the prerequisite isn't really Universalist, it is "not Abjurer, not Conjurer, ...." Although I guess Universalist could be interpreted to mean just that.

The other possibility is that a MCD Wizard has to do something to positively affirm being a Universalist, and that doesn't exist. That indicates that MCD Wizards are blocked from learning Hand of the Apprentice. Maybe I'm reading too much into Wizards explicitly choosing to be s Universalist at 1st level, and there being no equivalent for MCD Wizards.

Has there been any "official discussion" about this? Google has turned up some threads, but I've not seen anything that looks like it had official Paizo confirmation as to what the RAI would be.

BTW: I'm not trying to use this to get to Drain Bonded Item,

[Cordell Kintner]

The prerequisite of the Feat is the "Universalist". The Dedication Feat does not let you pick a school specialization. Therefore you can not pick the feat as you aren't part of that Arcane School. And no, you can't pick Universalist with Arcane School Spell, as they don't actually have a school spell.

[Themetricsystem]

Yep CK has it right, the simple answer to your question is : No.

[breithauptclan]

I'm going to go against the grain so far in this thread. (Not an uncommon occurrence TBH)

Wizard: Arcane School wrote:

If you don’t choose a school, you’re a universalist

So since the Wizard Dedication doesn't let you choose an Arcane School, then you are automatically a Universalist Wizard. Which would qualify you to take Hand of the Apprentice.

Until you take the archetype feat Arcane School Spell, which does tell you to pick an Arcane School and therefore you no longer qualify for Hand of the Apprentice.

[breithauptclan]

DougSeay wrote:

BTW: I'm not trying to use this to get to Drain Bonded Item,

I'm curious how you think that you could. Drain Bonded Item is part of the Arcane Bond class feature - which isn't available as a class feat. There are some class feats that expand and improve on the bonded item abilities, but they all have a prerequisite of having the Arcane Bond class feature already. So you couldn't pick those feats as part of the Wizard Archetype, and they wouldn't work anyway.

[Cordell Kintner]

breithauptclan wrote:

I'm going to go against the grain so far in this thread. (Not an uncommon occurrence TBH)

Wizard: Arcane School wrote:

If you don’t choose a school, you’re a universalist

So since the Wizard Dedication doesn't let you choose an Arcane School, then you are automatically a Universalist Wizard. Which would qualify you to take Hand of the Apprentice.

Until you take the archetype feat Arcane School Spell, which does tell you to pick an Arcane School and therefore you no longer qualify for Hand of the Apprentice.

You don't get the Arcane School class feature at all. You never qualify for anything requiring an Arcane School, and Arcane School Spell only grants the focus spell of your choice, nothing else.

This can be compared to the Sorcerer's Bloodline Class feature, which is explicitly granted by the Sorcerer Dedication feat, albeit limited.

[GM OfAnything]

breithauptclan wrote:

I'm going to go against the grain so far in this thread. (Not an uncommon occurrence TBH)

Wizard: Arcane School wrote:

If you don’t choose a school, you’re a universalist

So since the Wizard Dedication doesn't let you choose an Arcane School, then you are automatically a Universalist Wizard. Which would qualify you to take Hand of the Apprentice.

Until you take the archetype feat Arcane School Spell, which does tell you to pick an Arcane School and therefore you no longer qualify for Hand of the Apprentice.

Yeah, if you don’t have a school, you are a universalist by default.

[HumbleGamer]

Cordell Kintner wrote:

This can be compared to the Sorcerer's Bloodline Class feature, which is explicitly granted by the Sorcerer Dedication feat, albeit limited.

It feels more like a sorcerer bloodline focus spell out of 20 which can't be available through dedication.

I admit I can't say for sure whether paizo wanted deliberately to forbid players from taking Hand of the apprentice for some reason ( though I couldn't think of any, at the moment ), but so the opposite.

I'd probably go with the "universalist" by default.

[Squiggit]

GM OfAnything wrote:

Yeah, if you don’t have a school, you are a universalist by default.

But the thing that says you're a universalist by default comes from a class feature MC Wizards never get.

[beowulf99]

We have been down this road before.

My interpretation is that of Cordell Kintner btw, but I wouldn't hate you or your GM if you decided that all MC Wizards are Universalists either. I just don't agree due to the class feature issue.

If your GM weighs what you want to do with Hand of the Apprentice, a spell which could be VERY powerful in the hands of a rogue with full sneak attack/other classes with bonus damage the wizard wouldn't normally have, and finds that it is fine then nothing is stopping them from allowing you to take it.

[Cordell Kintner]

OP specifically asked about a PFS legal way to get it. The short answer is "No".

In a home game I would totally allow my players to pick it up as a "Universalist" focus spell if they want to spend the feat on it.

[beowulf99]

Cordell Kintner wrote:

OP specifically asked about a PFS legal way to get it. The short answer is "No".

My bad, I forgot the PFS Legal bit after reading through the rest of the thread. Is there a PFS errata or comment on MC wizard and schools? Because if there is not, you could still see some table variance there. I don't play PFS, so I'm not very aware of it's nuances.