Rise of the Runelords + miserly DM, looking for party support build!

[AndIMustMask]

I've been invited to an irl game for rise of the runelords, starting at level 3.
...with level 1 starter wealth, citing fears that players would break the game with "too much" money (see: the average expected assets to have your gear/etc up to par for threats of that level).
...similarly, we are also barred from any item creation feats or traits that circumvent the issue of lack of funds (such as signature moves, heirloom weapon, etc).
...and multiclassing is being houseruled as a "dead" level before coming online--so a fighter changing class to ranger would have to act like a ranger for an entire level with no benefits (including base statistics, effectively a level lower for that duration) before being allowed to benefit from their change of vocation. variant multiclassing is also disallowed.

Since every other player I've spoken to or spitballed character ideas on is some manner of melee-oriented character (and a necro wizard), which tend to require gear bonuses to continue hitting and surviving hits and effects, I'm thinking of something along the lines of a bard or paladin--basically just providing as many party buffs in as many fields as possible at once, to try and cover for the defecits.

I'm wondering if there's some sort of bard-ish paladin or paladin-ish bard or other similar setup (evangelist cleric?) available to pick up and just slap as many group buffs as possible at once for the group. I want to make the entire party into supersaiyans, whether they or the GM want them to or not.

Being able to heal would also be a bonus.

[AndIMustMask]

I should also clarify that I'm not against this campaign setup or anything, I'm just looking to make sure that everyone can enjoy themselves within these constraints while the GM works through any system hesitancy they might have.

[Java Man]

Spell warrior skald to enchant all of the party's weapons?

[*Khan*]

With that kind of restrains a martial characters who rely on magic weapons and armor will be nerfed and monks/primary casters will shine. Archtypes like a Bladebound Kensai Magus will also be better than normally at lower levels.
If you want a level dip, take it now as you will have passed the dead 2. level for free.

[AndIMustMask]

Java Man wrote:

Spell warrior skald to enchant all of the party's weapons?

i'll give that a once-over alongside my d20pfsrd diving

*Khan* wrote:

With that kind of restrains a martial characters who rely on magic weapons and armor will be nerfed and monks/primary casters will shine. Archtypes like a Bladebound Kensai Magus will also be better than normally at lower levels.

If you want a level dip, take it now as you will have passed the dead 2. level for free.

those are sort of my worries for the group (and why i'm trying to support them), yeah. and that's true, now would be the time to consider dipping safely.

[avr]

The omdura is a solid option here at level 3, or a cleric or oracle gets the likes of magic vestment and greater magic weapon a few levels from now.

If you're going to be group buffing a lot I advise against dipping. Getting better buffs sooner will matter more than improving your personal combat ability a little, which is what a dip is likely to be best for.

[*Khan*]

avr wrote:

The omdura is a solid option here at level 3, or a cleric or oracle gets the likes of magic vestment and greater magic weapon a few levels from now.

If you're going to be group buffing a lot I advise against dipping. Getting better buffs sooner will matter more than improving your personal combat ability a little, which is what a dip is likely to be best for.

I agree - dipping is best for martial characters. I dont get the need to nerf them - Is that really what the GM wants or is he using the wrong tools to fix his game.

In my opinion limiting ability scores to min 8 and max 16 before racial bonuses would help more. Or no magic equipment to enchant ability scores.
Or actually force a multiclass level on all character...

[Lelomenia]

Oath of the People’s Council Paladin is literally what you describe; a paladin that gets Bard performance.

[MrCharisma]

Lelomenia wrote:

Oath of the People’s Council Paladin is literally what you describe; a paladin that gets Bard performance.

Beat me to it.

OATHBOUND PALADIN

OATH OF THE PEOPLE'S COUNCIL

You're a Paladin without Smite Evil (or related abilities), but instead you get Inspire Courage. Pretty much exactly what you're looking for.

Also, if you DO want to do any multiclassing then I think the People's Council Paladin makes a good base for an "Oradin". I can go into that more if you need an explanation.

[MrCharisma]

*Khan* wrote:

In my opinion limiting ability scores to min 8 and max 16 before racial bonuses would help more. Or no magic equipment to enchant ability scores.

I prefer to have a min/max limit after racial modifiers are applied.

A 16 max before racial mods is basically the same as an 18 max after racial mods, but it allows for more diverse race/class selection.

EDIT: That last sentence was backwards - the 16 max before racial mods allows for less diverse race/class selection ... you get it =P

[Lelomenia]

MrCharisma wrote:

*Khan* wrote:

In my opinion limiting ability scores to min 8 and max 16 before racial bonuses would help more. Or no magic equipment to enchant ability scores.

I prefer to have a min/max limit after racial modifiers are applied.

A 16 max before racial mods is basically the same as an 18 max after racial mods, but it allows for more diverse race/class selection.

EDIT: That last sentence was backwards - the 16 max before racial mods allows for less diverse race/class selection ... you get it =P

i don’t get the logic…8 Min/18 Max after racials basically kills Orc and Kobold races off as options with no obvious benefit…?

[MrCharisma]

Lelomenia wrote:

MrCharisma wrote:

*Khan* wrote:

In my opinion limiting ability scores to min 8 and max 16 before racial bonuses would help more. Or no magic equipment to enchant ability scores.

I prefer to have a min/max limit after racial modifiers are applied.

A 16 max before racial mods is basically the same as an 18 max after racial mods, but it allows for more diverse race/class selection.

EDIT: That last sentence was backwards - the 16 max before racial mods allows for less diverse race/class selection ... you get it =P

i don’t get the logic…8 Min/18 Max after racials basically kills Orc and Kobold races off as options with no obvious benefit…?

Sorry, I wasn't as clear as I could have been.

TLDR: I would be increasing the limits at the minimum and the maximum, so it would go from 8-16 before racials to 6-18 after racials.

*Kahn* was suggesting 8 min, 16 max before racial modifiers. This means an Elf can get 18 INT, but a Dwarf can't. Likewise a Dwarf can get 18 WIS but an Elf can't. So you can still start with an 18 in your main stat, you're forced to choose a race with the relevant stat bonus.

This essentially stops the Single Attribute Dependant (SAD) classes from starting the game with 20 in their main stat, but it does so in a way that inhibits player choice by disincentivising certain character concepts (like a Dwarf Sorcerer, who would start with 14 CHA at best with this system). A Dwarf Sorcerer is never going to be great, but a Dwarf Wizard couldn't start with an 18 INT either, and neither could a Halfling, Gnome, or any other race without a +2 INT.

Or you could expand the parameters from 8-16 to 6-18, but have these limits apply after the racial modifiers have been added.

You still stop the Elven Wizard from starting the game with 20 INT, but you allow a more diverse selection of race/class combos. That Dwarf Wizard is now a more viable concept, while the Elven Wizard is still as strong as they could have been in the other system. It caps the maximum without inhibiting choice in the same way.

The Elven Wizard still has an advantage in the point buy, but not such an overwhelming one. In a 20 point buy an Elven Wizard could start with 18 INT and still have 10 points left to spend on other stats, while a Dwarven Wizard with 18 INT would only have 3 points left for other stats.

As for the Kobold and the Orc:
- the Kobold would be fine (I'm not forcing them to put a 12 in STR before racials)
- the Orc would still be viable, you could start with 18 in STR by spending only 5 points, so if you wanted to play the big dumb barbarian you could do something like 18, 12, 16, 8, 12, 6.

Remember that this is response to *Kahn*'s suggestion of how to limit PC power (a suggestion given as an alternative to the OP's GM who is limiting their wealth and multiclassing options to achieve the same goal). The whole purpose of this seems to be about stopping the PCs from maxing those numbers too quickly, so a 22 STR Orc would probably not fit this game anyway. I'm also not saying *Kahn*'s suggestion is bad (I think it's a better way to handle this than the current situation), I'm just saying I'd tweak it slightly to allow more diversity.

[Neriathale]

AndIMustMask wrote:

I've been invited to an irl game for rise of the runelords, starting at level 3.

...with level 1 starter wealth, citing fears that players would break the game with "too much" money (see: the average expected assets to have your gear/etc up to par for threats of that level).
...similarly, we are also barred from any item creation feats or traits that circumvent the issue of lack of funds (such as signature moves, heirloom weapon, etc.

Are the wealth and item making restrictions just for starting characters, because if so then you will be playing 3rd level characters with 1st level WBL in an adventure written for 1st level characters, which is a big upgrade on what’s expected for the AP. If the GM is planning to keep you at L3 for the whole of book 1 then by the end you should have the right sort of WBL (allowing for the fact it will all be in the form of stupidly unusable weapons and niche magic items, because all APs do that).

[Coidzor]

AndIMustMask wrote:

...and multiclassing is being houseruled as a "dead" level before coming online--so a fighter changing class to ranger would have to act like a ranger for an entire level with no benefits (including base statistics, effectively a level lower for that duration) before being allowed to benefit from their change of vocation. variant multiclassing is also disallowed.

So a Fighter 3/Ranger 1 is a 4th level character with only Fighter 3 abilities and HD, etc. and then a Fighter 3/Ranger 2 is a 5th level character with the abilities of all 3 Fighter levels and all 2 Ranger levels?

Or is it that a Fighter 5/Ranger X only has the stats of a Fighter 5/Ranger X-1, and has forever lost a level to the void?

Is this a permanent crippling or is it a temporary crippling?

Either way it reflects pretty badly on him as a GM, but if it's a permanent crippling, that's extra damning.

AndIMustMask wrote:

I've been invited to an irl game for rise of the runelords, starting at level 3.

...with level 1 starter wealth, citing fears that players would break the game with "too much" money (see: the average expected assets to have your gear/etc up to par for threats of that level).
...similarly, we are also barred from any item creation feats or traits that circumvent the issue of lack of funds (such as signature moves, heirloom weapon, etc).

Rise of the Runelords doesn't contain enough downtime for much item crafting beyond maybe a few scrolls, unless the GM deliberately alters it, so banning item creation feats in and of itself wouldn't necessarily be a red flag. In combination with the rest of that, though, it sounds like he hasn't read up enough on the AP to realize that 1. you're fighting the Runelord of Greed as the BBEG and 2. you don't actually have time in the AP to do crafting anyway.

Are you starting the Adventure Path right at the very beginning where you're supposed to be level 1 or are you joining an existing game where they've hit level 3 and you'll come in at level 3 but you're coming in with less WBL than the rest of the players? Or are you all skipping the introduction to the AP and are just starting from where your GM has deemed that the PCs would have hit level 3?

If you all are starting at the very beginning of the AP and are all going to be level 3 and he's not increasing the CR of what you're fighting or deliberately nerfing the loot that the enemies carry, then you're going to get up to WBL in short order and won't be negatively affected by only starting with level 1 starting gold.

But, if that's the case, it sounds like the premise may have been put forward poorly.

[strayshift]

Make a stand. Don't play. Tell the DM why.

[Nyerkh]

This is such a bad way to go at limiting a group's power level. Not gonna redo the several discussions on this we've seen since the release of PF1 but in short : the builds these limits hurt the most are the ones they should worry about the least.

Anyways.
Your party has the martial aspect covered, with an emphasis on melee.
I'd advise you to play the SADdest full-caster you see yourself enjoying. It's the absolute perfect setup for a god wizard, but a witch would do good, (evangelist) cleric is also a nice option ... most 9/9 casters can be pertinent really.

If that's not your thing then yeah, Bards and Skalds are fun, People's Council paladins and exemplar Brawler do the Inspire Courage thing (though that might be a lot of melee for one party) ...

[AndIMustMask]

@avr: I'll admit my initial reaction to that suggestion was "what the hell's an omdura", since i've been out of the game for several years at this point. that's a very interesting class though--some sort of quasi-divine-sorcerer with bits and pieces from many of the divine classes. the archetypes make me ask why you arent just playing a cavalier or magus (respectively) though

MrCharisma wrote:

Lelomenia wrote:

Oath of the People’s Council Paladin is literally what you describe; a paladin that gets Bard performance.

Beat me to it.

glancing it over now that I'm awake, that's pretty darn close to what I was looking for yeah, i'll have to examine more closely in a bit.

@neriathale: I should clarify (having found out a short while ago) that I'll be joining the group on their /ongoing/ campaign, which was described to me as "we're level 3, we just dealt with an underground dungeon" and "we're in a shoddy made goblin fortress" when I texted to get more info on that, so I'm sort of puzzled there (and we might actually be ahead of the curve in terms of level if not wealth? I'm unsure at this point to be honest)

@coidzor: the first example--you would be a fighter 3/-- until the end of 4th level, at which point you'd become a fighter 3/ranger 2 once you hit 5th.

[AndIMustMask]

MrCharisma wrote:

Lelomenia wrote:

Oath of the People’s Council Paladin is literally what you describe; a paladin that gets Bard performance.

Beat me to it.

OATHBOUND PALADIN

OATH OF THE PEOPLE'S COUNCIL

You're a Paladin without Smite Evil (or related abilities), but instead you get Inspire Courage. Pretty much exactly what you're looking for.

Also, if you DO want to do any multiclassing then I think the People's Council Paladin makes a good base for an "Oradin". I can go into that more if you need an explanation.

after taking the time to look more closely at it, this is pretty much everything I was looking for with solid defenses and passable personal offense out of the box as well! provided the DM isn't incredibly restrictive with paladin oaths, I think i'll be settling on this one going forward.

[Scavion]

Not to be SPOILERS. But being a wizard in Rise of the Runelords is especially awesome. Bards also but only if you get that far.

[Coidzor]

AndIMustMask wrote:

@neriathale: I should clarify (having found out a short while ago) that I'll be joining the group on their /ongoing/ campaign, which was described to me as "we're level 3, we just dealt with an underground dungeon" and "we're in a shoddy made goblin fortress" when I texted to get more info on that, so I'm sort of puzzled there (and we might actually be ahead of the curve in terms of level if not wealth? I'm unsure at this point to be honest)

@coidzor: the first example--you would be a fighter 3/-- until the end of 4th level, at which point you'd become a fighter 3/ranger 2 once you hit 5th.

Alright, yeah. Starting with level 1 wealth at that dungeon is going to be a little rough, but it's still early on enough that the rest of the players haven't gotten all that much loot, either. Especially if they are still in the beginning stages of clearing that dungeon.

Sounds like reason to proceed with caution but definitely isn't a worst case scenario, run away immediately situation.

[MrCharisma]

Scavion wrote:

Not to be SPOILERS. But being a wizard in Rise of the Runelords is especially awesome. Bards also but only if you get that far.

I'm super curious about this.

Is it actually wizards? Or would any arcane caster work? Or any INT-based caster (What about a Psychic or Occultist)?

My group is planning on running this AP eventually (after we finish the 2 we're already running), so I really appreciate the spoiler warning.

If you CAN answer without spoilers I'd appreciate it, but if you can't then I appreciate the discretion you've already shown.

[Coidzor]

MrCharisma wrote:

I'm super curious about this.

Is it actually wizards? Or would any arcane caster work? Or any INT-based caster (What about a Psychic or Occultist)?

My group is planning on running this AP eventually (after we finish the 2 we're already running), so I really appreciate the spoiler warning.

If you CAN answer without spoilers I'd appreciate it, but if you can't then I appreciate the discretion you've already shown.

IIRC, even the Player's Guide acknowledges that the Thassilonians were an ancient society ruled by wizards. (and if not, you find out within the first genuine conversation you have with Master Roshi's less pervy brother anyway.)

TBH, I can't remember what's special about Bards in ROTRL, but Wizards and Arcanists get more benefits from looting ancient wizards' swag than most other casters just as a general principle

OTOH, the spell selection available even to non-Wizards is a lot greater at this point now that new first party content is no longer coming out compared to what it was right at the beginning of PF1E development.

[Lelomenia]

MrCharisma wrote:

Scavion wrote:

Not to be SPOILERS. But being a wizard in Rise of the Runelords is especially awesome. Bards also but only if you get that far.

I'm super curious about this.

Is it actually wizards? Or would any arcane caster work? Or any INT-based caster (What about a Psychic or Occultist)?

My group is planning on running this AP eventually (after we finish the 2 we're already running), so I really appreciate the spoiler warning.

If you CAN answer without spoilers I'd appreciate it, but if you can't then I appreciate the discretion you've already shown.

the authors did a pretty even handed job of splitting RotRL loot into two categories; ‘wizard loot other classes could also potentially benefit from’ and ‘wizard only loot’.

[Scavion]

MrCharisma wrote:

Scavion wrote:

Not to be SPOILERS. But being a wizard in Rise of the Runelords is especially awesome. Bards also but only if you get that far.

I'm super curious about this.

Is it actually wizards? Or would any arcane caster work? Or any INT-based caster (What about a Psychic or Occultist)?

My group is planning on running this AP eventually (after we finish the 2 we're already running), so I really appreciate the spoiler warning.

If you CAN answer without spoilers I'd appreciate it, but if you can't then I appreciate the discretion you've already shown.

Coidzor and Lelomenia put it best and I'll only add that it feels particularly rewarding being some form of Specialist Wizard since the Thassilonians had a HEFTY emphasis on their particular schools of magic and forbidden schools. I think the Player's Guide mentions this as well.

The Bard thing may apply to Bard-ish classes/archetypes with a nice GM.

[MrCharisma]

Cool, thanks folks. Now I'm gonna pitch to my group that we play an all-wizard party!

Again, I appreciate the discretion, so to avoid accidental spoilers I'll say that my curiosity is sated and we can leave well enough alone.

Much obliged ^_^

[Scavion]

MrCharisma wrote:

Cool, thanks folks. Now I'm gonna pitch to my group that we play an all-wizard party!

Tell everyone to play a different specialist or thassilonian specialist wizard(Don't include Divination).

Good luck with the pitch!