| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've been very excited to run this AP since getting Lost Omens: The Mwangi Expanse, and with one of my campaigns faltering, I've been pushing for this to replace it. The only problem is, one of my players HATES playing any sort of spellcaster, even with archetypes. They're still willing to play, but even the idea of playing a Magus doesn't appeal to them at all. Tonight in the group chat the group was discussing classes they'll play, and everyone had an idea except for this player. Jokingly, I said they should play a superstition barbarian. This was clearly a mistake, as they almost immediately latched on to the idea. I thought about ways to talk them out of it, but...
I mean, what ABOUT superstition barbarian?
Clearly, some rules would have to be waived, like being able to opt out of emanation buffs, and perhaps the character has less of a hatred of magic and more of an abstinence take. However I can't get the idea out of my head.
So what do you think? How would a character who refuses to cast magic but can coexist with spellcasters fit into the Magaambya? If people like Teacher Ot can cast barely any magic, why not someone with none at all? Am I too admitting and should instead insist on staying within the lines?
Curious to see what people think.
| 21 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's an AP about a magical school. Playing a character who hates and fears magic is not appropriate. One of the fundamental rules of tabletop is "make a character who wants to be in this campaign."
If your player hates magic and doesn't want to make a character for this campaign, they aren't a good fit for this one, because it's literally the premise.
|
If the player jumped on this idea, is it because the challenge of playing such a character in this campaign enticed them ? Or because it was an easy way to avoid spellcasting abilities ? Or a way to sink the campaign because they hate not having à choice on spellcasting abilities ?
And what does the player hate about casting ? The mechanics or the concept itself ?
Not every campaign has to provide room for every character concept.
I feel this would be like wanting to play a Paladin in an Evil campaign. Why do this ?
Note however that the free archetypes were given to ensure every PC had skill in Nature or Arcana and IIRC so that they could participate in relevant rituals.
If the Superstitious Barbarian PC can do this, maybe they can play the AP and indeed bring something different to the table and the story. Note however that this will need the player to take a constructive approach to integrating their PC in the campaign and not a disruptive one.
Note that the Superstition Barbarian hates having spells cast on them and casting spells themselves. Anything beyond that is compatible with the anathema, especially if you use the relaxed stand noted for PFS in AoN.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Teacher Ot has a decent amount of magic, relatively speaking, and his stat block feels more like he's a victim of being an important NPC in a low level adventure.
I agree with keftiu. What I told my players is that the primary requirement for a character in the campaign is that it needs to be someone with a desire to attend magic school. It seems like it would be hard to justify why a Superstition Barbarian would want to attend a school that's basically anathema to him. I feel for you, I think I have a player who is going to balk a little at the "you've got to have some spellcasting" 'restriction', but there are a number of options to make that happen.
I do have a potential Barbarian in my group, but he's playing an Animal Instinct Matanji Orc who was severely injured in a demon hunt and took an interest in healing. He's planning to take druid as his multiclass.
If your player is really set against spellcasting, there's quite a few feats in druid that have nothing to do with their spells as long as they're okay with putting up with the druid's anathema. Animal Companion, Poison Resistance, and Mature Animal Companion could be taken as your 4th,6th, and 8th level free feats and you've not gotten any spellcasting outside of the initial cantrips.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If the player jumped on this idea, is it because the challenge of playing such a character in this campaign enticed them ? Or because it was an easy way to avoid spellcasting abilities ? Or a way to sink the campaign because they hate not having à choice on spellcasting abilities ?
I trust this player a lot. They're much more interested in creating a good story than messing with mechanics, and they would never try to ruin a campaign, only make it more interesting. While there is probably a little bit of avoidance, I'd say they're more intrigued by the character concept and how it'd interact with the world in a different way.
And what does the player hate about casting ? The mechanics or the concept itself ?
They specifically don't like keeping track of what different spells do and find it to be too much to think about. The closest they've ever gotten was a champion with the Runescarred archetype, and only because that was very few spells to remember and very thematic to the character.
Not every campaign has to provide room for every character concept.
I feel this would be like wanting to play a Paladin in an Evil campaign. Why do this ?
I do find myself asking similar things. I would prefer something more in line with the campaign, but I don't just want to shut them down. They have done really interesting things in the past with character concepts I wasn't initially fully behind. My initial instinct was no, but maybe it could provide some interesting dynamics.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you're up for the work, that's up to you, but my gut tells me that, trusted player or no, a superstition barbarian has the potential to be more of a disruptive dynamic than an interesting one.
You're already going to have to come up with some reasoning for why hanging out at the Magaambya, a school dedicated to magic, isn't a violation of the instinct's anathema (much less becoming an actual student). I can think of at least one task in the first adventure that violates the anathema if participated in. There's at least one task in the second adventure that seems to rely on a ritual to complete. Sure, the Barbarian doesn't *have* to participate in either of those instances.
I guess a couple of questions you have to answer for yourself are:
1. Are you willing to put in the extra work to work around this PC's anathema when the adventure requires adapting because of it?
2. When you can't adapt the adventure to work around the anathema, is the player going to disengage because they can't participate in the plot without temporarily losing class features?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
PFS Note for the Superstitious Barbarian :
Given the slightly relaxed rules around edicts and anathema in Society play, a barbarian with the superstition instinct can benefit from spells and magic items if they are an unavoidable part of a Society adventure, such as if a scenario assumes the PCs are transported to their mission location via a teleport spell, or if an adventure requires that all PCs participate in a magical ritual.
|
|
If you're up for the work, that's up to you, but my gut tells me that, trusted player or no, a superstition barbarian has the potential to be more of a disruptive dynamic than an interesting one.
You're already going to have to come up with some reasoning for why hanging out at the Magaambya, a school dedicated to magic, isn't a violation of the instinct's anathema (much less becoming an actual student).
How is this a violation of the anathema ?
"Willingly accepting the effects of magic spells (including from scrolls, wands, and the like), even from your allies, is anathema to your instinct. You can still drink potions and invest and activate most magic items you find, though items that cast spells are subject to the same restrictions as all other spells. If an ally insists on using magic on you despite your unwillingness, and you have no reason to believe they will stop, continuing to travel with that ally of your own free will counts as willingly accepting their spells (as do similar circumstances) and thus is also anathema to your instinct."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
{. . .}
My best idea for a superstitious barbarian is turning the Superstition mechanic into a curse that causes the character pain when magic is cast upon them. The character comes to the school to get this condition removed, and it is currently stumping the faculty. So the PC lives there and attends classes or helps out around town like an attending student because they have nothing else better to do. You'll have to create some sidequests and invent a reason for the curse, and etc.
{. . .}
I really like this. Making the curse so that it is really hard to get rid of completely, and has to be lessened in stages, could also fit in: The character also gets pain when they try to learn or use a spell, and fixing that problem for one problem doesn't fix it for the next one, so they very slowly build up a small repertoire of spell that conveniently happens to be easy for the player to keep track of. As mechanical compensation, have a side effect of the gradual curse removal be that when the character does gain the ability to use a spell, it integrates with their Rage instead of being impeded by it, so that they effectively end up being a respectable Bloodrager.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Let me put it this way: would you allow a character in this campaign who /hated/ nature? Not in a quirky student way, but in a sense of true loathing. That's how disruptive I imagine an anti-magic character would be.
Why would they be at a magic school?
|
|
How is this a violation of the anathema ?
You are willingly attending a location where you have every reason to believe your allies will be subjecting you to magic. In my reading, it's almost a willful violation of the conditions of the last sentence. Yes, you could ask the entire school to never use magic on you, but you have no reason to believe they'll all stop. You could say "well, then those people aren't my allies", and that may be true, but it sets things up for the anathema to become even more disruptive.
You could go with the relaxed PFS take on the anathema and assume that most or all the magical involvement in the campaign is "unavoidable", but in this particular campaign that's a lot of "unavoidable". Even the masking ceremony is magic ritual.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why would they be at a magic school?This is the key question. Why is this character a student at the Magaambya? Why would they want to be, and why would the Magaambya allow it?
Because their influential family / community put things in motion for them to be accepted there and they could not say no.
Heck, they might even be from a long line of esteemed Magaambya teachers and their family expects the cursus will rid the student of that stupid "Magic is not my thing" idea.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How is this a violation of the anathema ?You are willingly attending a location where you have every reason to believe your allies will be subjecting you to magic. In my reading, it's almost a willful violation of the conditions of the last sentence. Yes, you could ask the entire school to never use magic on you, but you have no reason to believe they'll all stop. You could say "well, then those people aren't my allies", and that may be true, but it sets things up for the anathema to become even more disruptive.
You could go with the relaxed PFS take on the anathema and assume that most or all the magical involvement in the campaign is "unavoidable", but in this particular campaign that's a lot of "unavoidable". Even the masking ceremony is magic ritual.
Easy : have the student be lawful. They will participate in traditional rituals if expected to.
And yes they will ask people not to use magic on them and explain how uncomfortable it makes them. And someone who ignores this and uses magic on them without consent is definitely not an ally IMO.
If the other players agree, I truly believe it can bring great RP opportunities to be the cohort saddled with the ugly duckling.
If the end result is a superstition Barbarian, I think altering the anathema to some degree is going to have to happen. Its a very restrictive anathema comparatively.
It is also a comparatively powerful package. +2 status bonus on all saves vs magic, plus a free level+Con healing every 10 minutes. That is a really swell boon and the other instincts get nothing like this. You could argue those instincts get offensive options, but it still isn't a coincidence they saddled those powers with the worst anethema.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I do not feel like merely attending the Magambyaa would be anathema in any way. Sure, people would probably take a while to learn, but if there's anywhere you can expect people to accept and respect a weird personal restriction you have I feel it'd be the Magambyaa!
On top of that, I don't feel like a character with this instinct HAS to hate magic. Sure it's the baseline, but I feel the instinct could be represented by a more of a "magic has it's place, just not on me" attitude.
Right now I have two ideas. One is purloined directly from
Kasoh and UnArcaneElection, with the character being affected by a mysterious curse. This would answer the question of why they're at the Magambyaa quite easily, and sets up an interesting character thread with lots of potential payout.
The other idea comes from the fact that the player would like to play a Goloma, an ancestry defined mostly by fear. Perhaps their fear manifests mostly against magic. While the Magambyaa would be a very scary place for them indeed, maybe it's the kind of space they need to learn about and accept something that is a base force of the universe, even if they don't accept it being used on them.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If the end result is a superstition Barbarian, I think altering the anathema to some degree is going to have to happen. Its a very restrictive anathema comparatively.It is also a comparatively powerful package. +2 status bonus on all saves vs magic, plus a free level+Con healing every 10 minutes. That is a really swell boon and the other instincts get nothing like this. You could argue those instincts get offensive options, but it still isn't a coincidence they saddled those powers with the worst anethema.
This is exactly why I think the PFS version, while relaxed, is still balanced enough to use, given it comes from Paizo's own Organized Play, where Superstition Barbarians rub elbows with all the other builds.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Perhaps flavor part of it in a way that they are studying magic to learn to better resist it? Then, when they get to later books, be like a defense against the dark arts-esque teacher. Maybe they take that wizard archetype, but only take things dedicated to counterspelling. Dunno if that's viable. But could be interesting. Sure it breaks anathema. But it's your game :)
Edit:: had a minute so i played around on pathbuilder. Counterspelling is tricky. But read aura and detect magic as ways to find magic, with each of the spell slots being filled with a heightened Dispel Magic would give the player a total of 4 spells to deal with (the 4th being the level 1 spell, so something will have to fill that. Perhaps True Strike) and then they can go around ending magical effects wherever they find them.
They would need to pick up a bunch of wizard feats, but enough of them dont have to do with spellcasting that i think you could get by. Bespell weapon, just in case. Steady spellcasting. They won't be the most helpful unless they cast Dispel magic. But still. An idea worth looking at.
An orc who hunts demons who was cursed to devour magic could be cool flavor for that, coming here to have the curse removed but instead learns to embrace it, dispelling magicn wherever they go.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Perhaps flavor part of it in a way that they are studying magic to learn to better resist it? Then, when they get to later books, be like a defense against the dark arts-esque teacher. Maybe they take that wizard archetype, but only take things dedicated to counterspelling.
...Counterspelling is tricky. But read aura and detect magic as ways to find magic, with each of the spell slots being filled with a heightened Dispel Magic would give the player a total of 4 spells to deal with (the 4th being the level 1 spell, so something will have to fill that. Perhaps True Strike) and then they can go around ending magical effects wherever they find them...
An orc who hunts demons who was cursed to devour magic could be cool flavor for that, coming here to have the curse removed but instead learns to embrace it, dispelling magicn wherever they go.
Oh I like the way you think. It would definitely have to waive some restrictions, and I would likely flavor the "spells" as manifestations or intentional directing of the curse through techniques they learned at the Magambyaa. This helps a LOT to solve the issue of what to do with the free archetype. Sure they're not TECHNICALLY a wizard, but the archetype will suffice.
Honestly I had not thought much about them as a teacher, but they would be in a prime position to teach the dangers of irresponsible magic! And perhaps other similarly cursed individuals could come to them for help.
My one concern is that one of my other players has made a flames oracle, who chose far before this player. I don't want it to feel like this player is aping the whole curse thing. Maybe flavored less as a curse and more as a weird bloodline side effect?
Either way, I really feel like there are some fun and flavorful ideas coming up in this thread. I can't wait to run them by my player.
^What's wrong with 2 curses in the party? They are very different.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Perhaps flavor part of it in a way that they are studying magic to learn to better resist it? Then, when they get to later books, be like a defense against the dark arts-esque teacher. Maybe they take that wizard archetype, but only take things dedicated to counterspelling.
...Counterspelling is tricky. But read aura and detect magic as ways to find magic, with each of the spell slots being filled with a heightened Dispel Magic would give the player a total of 4 spells to deal with (the 4th being the level 1 spell, so something will have to fill that. Perhaps True Strike) and then they can go around ending magical effects wherever they find them...
An orc who hunts demons who was cursed to devour magic could be cool flavor for that, coming here to have the curse removed but instead learns to embrace it, dispelling magicn wherever they go.
Oh I like the way you think. It would definitely have to waive some restrictions, and I would likely flavor the "spells" as manifestations or intentional directing of the curse through techniques they learned at the Magambyaa. This helps a LOT to solve the issue of what to do with the free archetype. Sure they're not TECHNICALLY a wizard, but the archetype will suffice.
Honestly I had not thought much about them as a teacher, but they would be in a prime position to teach the dangers of irresponsible magic! And perhaps other similarly cursed individuals could come to them for help.
My one concern is that one of my other players has made a flames oracle, who chose far before this player. I don't want it to feel like this player is aping the whole curse thing. Maybe flavored less as a curse and more as a weird bloodline side effect?
Either way, I really feel like there are some fun and flavorful ideas coming up in this thread. I can't wait to run them by my player.
Who needs a curse when you've been partially possessed by a demon? Or silcer other creature? One that devours magic it comes in contact with. If someone does exercise it, the effects still linger, and even grow as they take the power as their own.
Could make for a cool boss fight at some point. Or perhaps that's from the history and they're working with the aftermath of magic eating
It's an AP about a magical school. Playing a character who hates and fears magic is not appropriate. One of the fundamental rules of tabletop is "make a character who wants to be in this campaign."
If your player hates magic and doesn't want to make a character for this campaign, they aren't a good fit for this one, because it's literally the premise.
Yep, you might want to save your superstitious barbarian for the following AP; Quest for the Frozen Flame, for which he would be very appropriate.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I's either play a different campaign or find a different player.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you want to make it work maybe it could be a Cameron and Raistalin situation where the Barbarian is a dotting but dumb twin or older sibling to a dedicated mage who is along for the ride. And while they can't do magic themselves they have learned how mages fight from being at the school and they have become both the perfect mage hunter and mage bodyguard.
But it would be better if they could find a magic user they want to play. Maybe use one of the new caster archetypes from SoM like an emotion caster using either fear or anger magic or a Geomancer.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A standard PC in this AP can have very little in the way of magical ability if he chooses not to focus on magic. He can pick any class, and the only spells he is guaranteed to have are those granted by his Druid Dedication or Wizard Dedication. Since these spells can be cast at will, he does not have that much extra bookkeeping to deal with, especially if he slacks off on the academic checks that might grant him more magic.
And there is an obvious loophole in the Superstition anathema, if a player insists on taking that option: It basically boils down to being unwilling to allow himself to be targeted by magic. There seems to be no problem with him targeting others with spells, especially offensive spells. But you would definitely have to go with the laxer approach to this anathema taken in PFS by the time the party goes through a portal that is vital to the adventure.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe your 'superstitious barbarian' is not a student, but a janitor who keeps getting swept up into events beyond his ken.
He'd be like; "I just want to mop this floor, but you pesky gremlins keep getting blood on it!" etc....
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, a player who hates magic and spellcasting might not be the best fit for a campaign about a magic school. :)
Apart from that, if the player just doesn't want to cast many spells, they can take the Druid dedication. Druid has so many non-casting feats that you can easily have the MC archetype without any spells apart from the initial cantrips. Take all the animal companion feats plus a leshy familiar and you should be set.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to play a magic-hating character in this campaign. They will be a disruptive killjoy every step of the way.
The campaign is structured to encourage players to wonder at and fantasize about attending a magical school, having someone in the party who doesn't want to be there, hates everything about it, and outright looks down on others for using magic they will only sour the experience for everyone else.
It's not an interesting concept, it's knee-jerky and contrarian.
If the player doesn't want to use magic, either settle for training in a magical skill and a couple cantrips, or find a new character concept.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Have the barbarian be the bodyguard of one of the aspiring mages, given their resistances to spells they could be an excellent counter to rival spellcasters.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There's always going to be players who will see a premise of an AP and want to do the opposite- a Hellknight in Hell's Rebels, a hobgoblin PC in Ironfang Invasion, a Pharasman in Blood Lords, etc.
A GM and a player *can* work together to make a "do the opposite" character or story work. But there should be no assumption that the GM is going to want to do this extra work.
A bit of necromancy here, but it is a magic school after all.
I think a non caster might work, if the player and GM work for it. But a character that actively hate magic, does not.
Kind of like you might go to Bloodlords campaign and play a character that doesn't dabble in necromancy, or a character in outlaws of Alkenstar that doesn't use technology or guns, or a character without any sailing skill in Skull and Shackles, but it doesn't work for a character that hates necromancy and hunts undead or a character that hates technology and never goes near it or a character that fears the sea and refuse to go in a ship.
If the problem for said player is that they don't like spells, and has nothing to do with wanting to go against the AP for the sake of going against it, that has a very easy solution. Pick a non caster class, like a fighter. Take druid or Wizard dedication feat, and pick only the feats that don't enhance caster levels. The player will have a single cantrip. Pick detect magic or light or guidance or whatever non combat cantrip they want, and don't use it, ever.
That way he can safely ignore the part that he supposedly don't like (spells), without being a nuisance for everyone else.
There are several instances in the AP where characters are supposed to willingly accept magic. Zuma's request to practice magic tattoo rituals, as an example.