So I looked at the GMG about building NPCs and would like to use the monster creation one instead of manually building them like a PC. However, when looking at the class road maps, some of the suggested ability modifiers indicate High and the High charts are way above what a PC could ever achieve. How do you usually handle building your class like NPCs using the monster creation rules?
Thanks in advance.
Honestly, with PF2 this is arguably the more correct way to build NPCs (using the monster tables, basing stats on role).
And yes, it's intended for monsters to have higher stats than players. It's because they typically don't have as many options available to them, so they make it up with numerical superiority. It makes life easier on GMs by not having a 20 individual special abilities that GMs need to determine if they're useful.
Follow the rules here with the understanding that the "default" for a NPC creature that is good (but not usually so) at this kind of role is the high value, not moderate or extreme.
So if you were making a soldier type character it would make sense for them to potentially have high AC, high attack bonus, and high damage.
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Their ability scores won't really matter anyway. Their skill modifiers might, as will their saving throw bonuses and such. But none of those are directly based on their ability score modifiers.
And if these NPCs are going to be non-adventuring allies (or at least neutral - like shopkeepers), then their stats in general won't matter much.
If they are intended to be neutral, like a shopkeeper, that the players for some reason decide to be antagonistic to (like trying to steal from said shopkeeper) then using the enemy NPC tables for their stats would be the most appropriate.
If you are building a GMPC, I would instead say to follow the character creation rules - after strongly recommending not creating a GMPC.
I am not building any GMPCs, plenty of party members with a decent mix of classes. Just was unsure about regular NPCs as the ones in the GMG definitely do not appear to follow the monster creation rules.
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Also don't be afraid to mix in cool class abilities.
I wanted to do a lawful good dwarven paladin style cleric of Torag with a dwarven longhammer.
So I did it! Full cleric casting, reach, d10 weapon, channel smite, retributive strike.
PC's would have a hard time at merging all of that but I didn't. Cause I'm the GM.
**MIKE DROP, EXIT STAGE**
So I looked at the GMG about building NPCs and would like to use the monster creation one instead of manually building them like a PC. However, when looking at the class road maps, some of the suggested ability modifiers indicate High and the High charts are way above what a PC could ever achieve. How do you usually handle building your class like NPCs using the monster creation rules?
Thanks in advance.
I have a lot of experience in converting PF1 characters to PF2 because I running the PF1 Ironfang Invasion adventure path under PF2 rules.
First, the NPC high stats are not way above what a PC could achieve. They are a little above what a PC heavily specializing in that area could achieve. For example, consider Table 2–9: Strike Attack Bonus. Compare the High values from that table to a Str 18 fighter using a level-appropriate enchanted weapon from their favorite weapon group (for the master proficiency from 5th-level Fighter Weapon Mastery). The fighter raises his Strength bonus to +5 at 10th level and to +6 at 20th level.
1st level fighter +9, monster high value +9
2nd level fighter +11, monster high value +11
3rd level fighter +12, monster high value +12
4th level fighter +13, monster high value +14
5th level fighter +16, monster high value +15
6th level fighter +17, monster high value +17
7th level fighter +18, monster high value +18
8th level fighter +19, monster high value +20
9th level fighter +20, monster high value +21
10th level fighter +23, monster high value +23
11th level fighter +24, monster high value +24
12th level fighter +25, monster high value +26
13th level fighter +26, monster high value +27
14th level fighter +27, monster high value +29
15th level fighter +28, monster high value +30
16th level fighter +30, monster high value +32
17th level fighter +31, monster high value +33
18th level fighter +32, monster high value +35
19th level fighter +35, monster high value +36
20th level fighter +37, monster high value +38
What this means, however, is that the creature should be allowed High values from the tables only when it obviously specializes in that ability. The creature cannot be great at everything.
Monsters and simplified NPCs are given fewer options than PCs. For example, they are short on trained skiils. The life of a wild animal can teach Acrobatics, Athletics, Stealth, and Survival, but not Crafting nor Society (I might give Crafting to a beaver). Therefore, they have to specialize in their few options in order to be competitive at their level.
And sometimes their abilities are dependent on one ability. The 2nd-level Giant Monitor Lizard has jaws melee attack that deals 1d10+3 piercing plus Grab and monitor lizard venom. It also has Lurching Charge to charge and make that bite, Gnashing Grip to take advantage of the grab from the bite, and Monitor Lizard Venom to describe the venom in the bite. Its special abilities all fail if its jaws attack misses, so it has the high +11 value for its jaws strike attack bonus.
My players spotted a Giant Monitor Lizard from a distance as it slept and successfully Recalled Knowledge (Nature) to learn its abilities. They made ranged attacks to avoid its bites, with the high-AC shield-wielding champion up front as the obvious target for its Lunging Charge. A monster putting all its eggs in one basket makes it vulnerable to PC tactics. Pathfinder 2nd Edition is a game of tactics, so create those vulnerabilities.
Second, pay attention to the advice about invisible abilities under Basics of Ability Design. An unseen abilitywould be merely an extra step for the GM; it would be meaningless to the players. The 4th-level Hobgoblin Archer is obviously ranger class, though it never says "ranger" in its stat block. And it lacks a ranger's Hunt Prey ability, because Hunt Prey is invisible to its opponents. Instead, it simplfied Hunt Prey with ranger's Precision Edge to Crossbow Precision, "The first time the archer hits with a crossbow attack in a round, it deals 1d8 extra precision damage."
NPC classes are about being simple to play, with every action telegraphing to the players what it can do.
Third, build from existing Bestiary creatures for convenience. The 1st module in Ironfang Invasion features an Ironfang Heavy Trooper 2nd-level hobgoblin. Alas, the Bestiary gave only a 1st-level Hobgoblin Soldier, 4th-level Hobgoblin Archer, and 6th-level Hobgoblin General. So I took a Hobgoblin Soldier, leveled up their bonuses and hit points to 2nd level (10 hp + CON per level like a fighter), gave them half plate armor instead of hide armor, and added "Lunge [Action] (Strike with 10 foot reach)" as another ability. The Lunge was probably a mistake, because none of my heavy troopers used it. I should have trained them all in Nature instead, since a named heavy trooper, Kergri, had a trained wolf. Instead, I had built Kergri as slightly superior to the other heavy troopers.
Also don't be afraid to mix in cool class abilities.
I wanted to do a lawful good dwarven paladin style cleric of Torag with a dwarven longhammer.
So I did it! Full cleric casting, reach, d10 weapon, channel smite, retributive strike.
PC's would have a hard time at merging all of that but I didn't. Cause I'm the GM.
**MIKE DROP, EXIT STAGE**
The rule of cool is important for designing NPCs. Build creatures that let the players have excitement and challenge.
In the 3rd module of Ironfang Invasion, the party encounters a maenad with enthralled captives. The PF2 Bestiaries have not yet included a maenad, so I had to convert the creature myself. I went back to the ancient Greek myths about maenads to give her more flavor. She was not just a murderous wild woman with poison and an Infectious Dance, she was an untamed servant of the gods of wine. The change in flavor changed the encounter. More details here.
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So I looked at the GMG about building NPCs and would like to use the monster creation one instead of manually building them like a PC. However, when looking at the class road maps, some of the suggested ability modifiers indicate High and the High charts are way above what a PC could ever achieve. How do you usually handle building your class like NPCs using the monster creation rules?
Thanks in advance.
Just follow the rules, NPCs have higher skills and attacks, but lower HP and AC. That way you tend to hit the enemy and the enemy tends to hit you so that it's not just a miss fest.
The pre-made NPCs don't need to follow the monster creation rules (which are just guidelines anyway) - Paizo have professional designers that design all their creatures who have the experience and skill to make these things. The monster creation rules are just for those who aren't professionals and need a step by step process. They are necessarily more restrictive than what the professionals work with because people who don't design for a living won't necessarily know which numbers are too high, while a professional is now likely to know when it is okay for something to have an ac higher than what is on the chart for that level.
The monster creation rules also repeatedly tell you that you can deviate from what is listed
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The pre-made NPCs don't need to follow the monster creation rules (which are just guidelines anyway) - Paizo have professional designers that design all their creatures who have the experience and skill to make these things. The monster creation rules are just for those who aren't professionals and need a step by step process. They are necessarily more restrictive than what the professionals work with because people who don't design for a living won't necessarily know which numbers are too high, while a professional is now likely to know when it is okay for something to have an ac higher than what is on the chart for that level.
The monster creation rules also repeatedly tell you that you can deviate from what is listed
I'm reasonably sure the the monster creation rules are used in house as well. I suspect if the OP is flabbergasted by the numbers they're seeing, they are probably looking at skills on non-combat focused NPCs. This is addressed at the beginning of the NPC chapter but is easy to overlook if you're skipping around:
The level listed on an NPC's stat block is their level assuming they're used in combat; they should be able to hold their own as well as any other creature of that level. But many of these NPCs are primarily noncombatants who are much more skilled in their occupation than they ever would be in combat. To that end, those specialist NPCs' entries also mention a higher level that you would use when the PCs have to compete against them in their area of expertise.