Does your divine ally count as an ally for champion reactions


Rules Discussion


Now this seems like a silly question for the steed, because the steed is an actual separate creature but in the case of the blade and especially the shield it becomes less clear. I haven't found any specific rules that say they don't count as allies and the section on targeting doesn't specify that an ally has to be a creature. interested because of how it interacts with quick shield block if the answer is yes.


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From Targets:
Some effects target or require an ally, or otherwise refer to an ally. This must be someone on your side, often another PC, but it might be a bystander you are trying to protect. You are not your own ally. If it isn’t clear, the GM decides who counts as an ally or an enemy.

As far as I'm aware this is the only official definition of what's meant by an "ally" in the rules. So, the question becomes: is a weapon "someone on your side"? I would say no. The ability's name doesn't override the fact that it's an inanimate object. However, if someone disagrees with me there's already a built in way to do so without the rule quoted above: "If it isn't clear, the GM decides who counts as an ally or an enemy."

Personally I think it's pretty clear, again notice the "who", not "what" even in the description where it says the GM decides, but if one determines that it's ambiguous the default answer is to ask the GM.


Aw3som3-117 wrote:

From Targets:

Some effects target or require an ally, or otherwise refer to an ally. This must be someone on your side, often another PC, but it might be a bystander you are trying to protect. You are not your own ally. If it isn’t clear, the GM decides who counts as an ally or an enemy.

As far as I'm aware this is the only official definition of what's meant by an "ally" in the rules. So, the question becomes: is a weapon "someone on your side"? I would say no. The ability's name doesn't override the fact that it's an inanimate object. However, if someone disagrees with me there's already a built in way to do so without the rule quoted above: "If it isn't clear, the GM decides who counts as an ally or an enemy."

Personally I think it's pretty clear, again notice the "who", not "what" even in the description where it says the GM decides, but if one determines that it's ambiguous the default answer is to ask the GM.

The part that really confused me and introduced the rules ambiguity is that the rules don't really define what constitutes a "someone" very well and the divine ally ability does this; "Your devotion attracts a spirit of your deity's alignment." which begin to inhabit said items when you pick either sword or shield. That's where the ambiguity for me lies, does being possessed by a spirit grant an item personhood?

edit: as an adendum to this question because it is related, do intelligent items count as persons?


For the Champion's Divine Ally in the form of an item, I have to think that the item does not count as the ally. The spirit does, and the spirit is not what is taking damage.


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It gets a bit less clear with a Baba Yaga Witch or even a Kitsune who can have a familiar that is an object. Including having HP and some unspecified amount of intelligence. I think those should be considered allies.

How about a Baba Yaga Witch that animated a spoon or something like that and has it attack an enemy, and while it is moving over to the enemy it provokes a reaction attack? At that point could the Champion could use its reaction to protect the temporarily animated spoon?


Yeah, I think it is pretty unambiguous that your ally has to be a separate creature with some very niche exceptions.


breithauptclan wrote:
For the Champion's Divine Ally in the form of an item, I have to think that the item does not count as the ally. The spirit does, and the spirit is not what is taking damage.

I think it depends on if you consider it to fall under possession, where the possessee takes half the damage the possessed takes. Which is kind of in line with the fact that the shield spirit increases it's hp by half. it's hard to tell because the only place that the spirit and it's abilities are defined is in the chapion class features and as far as I can tell, none of the non-feat class features have tags.


DogBoySB wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
For the Champion's Divine Ally in the form of an item, I have to think that the item does not count as the ally. The spirit does, and the spirit is not what is taking damage.
I think it depends on if you consider it to fall under possession, where the possessee takes half the damage the possessed takes. Which is kind of in line with the fact that the shield spirit increases it's hp by half. it's hard to tell because the only place that the spirit and it's abilities are defined is in the chapion class features and as far as I can tell, none of the non-feat class features have tags.

The spirit that is the source of the divine ally has no creature stats unless you choose a steed, so I would agree that the spirit is not under attack to be defended. If the shield breaks, the spirit isn't harmed, it's just floating around waiting for you to perform your daily prep.

Possession doesn't hold up. You can't attack the spirit with mental damage as it has no Will save or HP. The "spirit" in the divine ally ability is just a conceptual explanation for a statistical benefit rather than a rules element that there is a creature possessing your weapon or shield.

However, even if you convinced me that the spirit was a creature possessing the shield who was taking half the damage that the shield took, then the champion reaction would only reduce the damage to the spirit, not to the shield because the shield is still just a shield.

--Familiar aside:

Familiars, animated objects, and summons have creature stats and are allies that could be defended.


I don't think it matters unless someone is targeting your weapon/shield with an attack specifically... something that should be relatively rare. If an enemy does make an attack targeting one or the other... I'd let it work. First of all, your Divine Ally literally has the word "Ally" written right on it, and you are the individual that it most obviously an ally of. Second, and more importantly, it's a weird niche case based on finicky rules reading, and it's not like letting it work would be OP. For weird niche cases on finicky rules reading that have no way of breaking the game, ruling in the player's favor means more feelsgood and less feelsbad, and carries no meaningful costs for me as a GM.

Again, enemies making attacks directly against your gear is weird, and should be pretty rare.


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I think it might be about trying to trip a champion’s reaction when you shield block.


Yeah, that is my first thought too. Trying to cheese both damage reduction to their shield and damage or debilitating effect to the enemy while also using shield block to protect themselves.

It would be limited by the number of reactions that you can use. I think there is a Champion feat or feature that gives you another reaction each turn that can only be used for Champion reaction. But even then, you might run into problems with the limit of one reaction per trigger.


Or maybe it is the other way around. Quick Block gives you a second reaction to use for Shield Block. Which still lets you both shield block and champion reaction in the same round.


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Yeah, I also think it's no harmless ruling. It looks like the OP wants to trigger Shield Block and then Champion's Reaction to attack the enemy, making it an automatic AoO when you Shield Block (on top of the effects of Shield Block).

Definitely, that will not happen around my table.

Liberty's Edge

Falls under the Too good to be true clause.


SuperBidi wrote:

Yeah, I also think it's no harmless ruling. It looks like the OP wants to trigger Shield Block and then Champion's Reaction to attack the enemy, making it an automatic AoO when you Shield Block (on top of the effects of Shield Block).

Definitely, that will not happen around my table.

I was mostly just wanting to not have to repair my main weapon as often. XD


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Can it move or take actions? Then it's a creature or a person. It would count as an "ally".

The weapon and shield spirits cannot, they do not count as "allies".

Grand Lodge

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Even if they did, it won't come up much. Taking damage from your Shield Block doesn't make it the target of an attack.

Sovereign Court

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If it was an intelligent item then I might consider it an ally. If you have an intelligent shield and someone specifically targets that, I'd be open to letting you use a champion reaction to protect it.

But using champion reactions to protect a shield from shield block wear and tear is going too far.

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