Revising my Character Sheet from Reincarnate


Advice

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So, following an untimely character death, my Human Champion Wymond Dwerryhouse has been brought back via the reincarnate ritual as a Dwarf. I've obviously got quite a bit of revising to do with the change in ancestry, and I want to make sure I'm not missing anything. To wit I believe I need to:

Remove 2 feats, specifically Natural Skill and one General Feat and replace it with 1 Dwarf ancestral feat.

Select a dwarf heritage.

Remove training from two skills as I no longer have Natural Skill as a feat.

And then shuffle around my stats to match the dwarf advances and penalties?

I'm not sure if I'm missing anything there, especially since Wymond is effectively my first 2e character so I was already worried I'd made mistakes on his sheet since he was originally converted over from 1e Pathfinder.

Thank you in advance for your advice.


I would recommend rebuilding the character from L1 using the previous Human character as guidance. Follow the build plan as well as is reasonable. But your character just went through a huge traumatic experience. There are bound to be some changes.

For anything that doesn't make sense to the new character or that you just want to change because it fits the new character better, have some downtime in-story where your character is going through some physical therapy or such and learning to use this new body to its fullest.

If you are mid-dungeon when the Reincarnation was done, then you might even play the rest of the dungeon with some missing feats. It could represent your character having some problems with re-entry into the mortal realm.


Reincarnate wrote:
The target replaces their ancestry Hit Points, size, Speeds, ability boosts, ability flaws, traits, and special abilities with those of their new ancestry. The target loses their heritage and ancestry feats, selecting replacements from their new ancestry. The target's background, class features, and known languages remain unaltered.

Step 1: change base ancestry stats.

Step 2: replace ancestry and heritage feats.

And that's it. All of your class feats, ability boosts other than from ancestry, general feats, skills, etc all remain the same.


Guntermench wrote:
And that's it. All of your class feats, ability boosts other than from ancestry, general feats, skills, etc all remain the same.

Well, other than feats that you no longer qualify for. For example skill feats that require a certain level of proficiency - which the character may no longer have because of losing the Human feat Natural Skill.


I don't think you lose them, you just can't use them and need to retrain. The only things that are said to change are things related to your ancestry.


Guntermench wrote:
I don't think you lose them, you just can't use them and need to retrain. The only things that are said to change are things related to your ancestry.

I think so.

Apart from changing your ancestry, the ritual is available sooner and costs 1/3 compared to resurrect.

I wouldn't mind some "downside effects", mostly because they really fit the situation ( a soul being in a new body, not necessarily being able to use it ).

ps: I'd anyway allow the character to reallocate his points to match dedications.

For example, let's assume a catfolk sorcerer ( +Dex, Cha, Free - Wis ) turned into a dwarf ( +Con, Wis, Free - Cha ).

I wouldn't expect the character to deal with a 16 cha score.

I wouldn't expect either a Catfolk ( +Dex, Cha, Free - Wis ) fighter with bard dedication ( 14 char required ) starting from lvl 2, not being able to get it if turned into a dwarf ( -2 char and the free stat which "must" be assigned into DEX or STR ).

So for what concerns STATS, instead of asking them to simply swap modifiers, I'd leave them the possibility to entirely readjust their stats to match their character.

Shortly, anything which can be achieved through the retrain activity would be achieved that way, while stats would be something apart.


Quote:
I wouldn't expect the character to deal with a 16 cha score.

They wouldn't have to, voluntary flaws are in the Ancestry step.


Guntermench wrote:
Quote:
I wouldn't expect the character to deal with a 16 cha score.
They wouldn't have to, voluntary flaws are in the Ancestry step.

Didn't know that.

Anyway, they might still have the issue I mentioned in my second example.

Being able to achieve either the dedication and the main stat ( 18 score ) might require additional adjustements.


I'm pretty sure you can apply a boost from voluntary flaws to get you to 10, then the free boost from Ancestry to get you back to 12. There's an exception made for starting flaws to allow two boosts in one step so that everyone can start with an 18.


Guntermench wrote:
I'm pretty sure you can apply a boost from voluntary flaws to get you to 10, then the free boost from Ancestry to get you back to 12. There's an exception made for starting flaws to allow two boosts in one step so that everyone can start with an 18.

I did not mean that.

Imagine that you are a Catfolk fighter ( 18 dex ) which took the Bard dedication ( 14 char required ).

The catfolk gets +2 dex + 2 char from its ancestry.

He gets reincarnate into a dwarf, resulting in 16 dex and 10 char.

The free stat from the dwarf goes into dex ( 18 dex ) and with the voluntary flaw he could achieve 12 but not 14 char, not being able to take the bard dedication.

Because of that, the character should imo be allowed to modify its sheet ( removing 2 points from another stat to increase its charisma ).

Hoping that its background stats would be compatible with it ( for example, if the background stats doesn't give DEX or CHAR, the whole character would be screwed up ).


Yes, following the RAW text of Reincarnate literally can cause a character that no longer qualifies for several of the feats and other choices that they have made.

The level 4 Catfolk Ranger with Sorcerer dedication that gets reincarnated as a Dwarf would be one such example. The highest CHA that the Catfolk character would reasonably have would be 16. Changing to Dwarf ancestry would mean that with the other skill boosts being the same (Reincarnate does not say to change anything except the ancestry boosts) then the CHA score that the Dwarf character has is 12 - which is not enough to qualify for the Sorcerer dedication.

Also, yes - the Reincarnate ritual does not remove any of the class feats that you have. But you no longer qualify to use them. RAW you would need to take time retraining those feats into feat choices that you do qualify for.

And finally, yes - if the Catfolk character has a base class of Sorcerer and gets reincarnated as a Dwarf at level 4, then they are stuck with a CHA at 14 at best.

Does anyone actually play with the rules like that though?


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It's a lottery. If it doesn't come out in your favour... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

At least your character is alive.

It would only disqualify you for any multiclass archetype feats that you don't have stats for anymore, maybe Skill Training if you decide not to or can't get 12 INT.


Guntermench wrote:

It's a lottery. If it doesn't come out in your favour... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

At least your character is alive.

It would only disqualify you for any multiclass archetype feats that you don't have stats for anymore, maybe Skill Training if you decide not to or can't get 12 INT.

Yeah I know its rng, but since it feels so weird and off ( and also it's a niche situation which would probably occour 1 out of 100 reincarnates ) I'd probably allows extra modifies :d


I mean, it's always been playing Russian Roulette with your character. If you want a guarantee that you won't have to make changes there's waiting for Resurrect.

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I apologize but now I'm a little confused...I was wondering if I'd need to rebuild from scratch since as a former human I'd technically no longer qualify for Natural Skill and thus have to rewrite my trained skills too, but all dwarves start with a clan dagger for free and I strongly doubt a dagger would have just appeared with Wymond upon reincarnation, especially since it's a representation of a dwarf's clan heritage, and given his human origins Wymond is effectively a clan of one.


Technically you aren't starting as a dwarf, you started as a human. I don't think you get a dagger for a clan that doesn't exist.


Its kind of a hassle, I'd let a PC keep any ancestry feats that weren't reliant on an ancestry's physiology. Same thing with failing to qualify for old MC feats. The PC gets grandfathered in.


Guntermench wrote:
I mean, it's always been playing Russian Roulette with your character. If you want a guarantee that you won't have to make changes there's waiting for Resurrect.

It has always been a Russian roulette for the race, I do agree, but that's it.

I don't remember any character from the previous versions being unable to use a weapon, forgetting skills, and even classes.

Though it works that way because of raw, this 2e has plenty of stuff you should be able to maintain even if reincarnated.

"Now I am a dwarf. I forgot all about society, my bard stuff, how to use my weapons and so on. Next time bury me instead"


You can always tell your GM to have Pharasma say no.

Or handwave it as trauma.


I think metaphysics play a role here, depending on how one interprets reincarnation. If it were merely a body transfer, then I agree that most of the build should remain intact unless physiological differences made it impossible.
Except I think Pathfinder's Reincarnation spell entails more than that though less than what Earth religions mean by it (which would be a complete makeover sans memories). PF2's involves one's mental stats too, so it's not just a body swap. There's an "essence" (whatever that means) that's been transformed so your PC's "self" is both itself and yet a new self. So yes, you may lose skills (or gain some). Heck, you've perhaps lost or gained personality or insight too.

I understand some games avoid having long-term setbacks, so sure, "fudge the dice" if that's the table's norm. But as for RAW & RAI, one really might have to accept major changes depending on the Ancestry the Reincarnation gamble gives you. Odds are the PC has the Ancestry which suits it, so Reincarnation seems pretty risky IMO.
And yeah, it could lead to some build conundrums. To answer those, I'd lean toward retraining, though if a player wanted to keep the feats unused until they could get the stats they needed, I'd (likely) allow that because technically at that level the new Dwarf had been able to take those feats (when a non-Dwarf). You aren't actually building a Dwarf from its foundation. The PC has a much more intriguing path than that, and I think is the better for it, even if it leads down paths unintended.

Liberty's Edge

See the guidance offered on Extreme Retraining that even mentions Reincarnation specifically as an example of when this is potentially appropriate.

If someone ends up in a situation where the loss of Ancestry destroys the level by level validity of their build such as ANY Ancient Elf, a Natual Ambition Human, or a number of other scenarios where the logic is broken my advice would be to offer the "extreme retraining" and effectively let them retrain everything that was impacted one level at a time for free as part of the ritual and healing/orientation period thereafter.


It also says retraining a class or ability scores should take months or years.

Faster to find some ritual to change back probably.


Guntermench wrote:

It also says retraining a class or ability scores should take months or years.

Faster to find some ritual to change back probably.

Good to know that you can retrain stats and class.

As for the time needed, I guess it's just an advice.

After all, AP can be cleared within months, meaning that characters could go from lvl 1 to lvl 20 almost instantly.

In addition to this, it has to be considered that it's the same characters who started the adventure lvl 1, after 20/30 years of "nobody knows what".

Since it took them less than 1 year to level cap, it's not clear what a character did during its past years.

Just to point out that time is relatively an issue or some mandatory mechanics.

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Which skills should I abandon as I no longer have Natural Skill? I'd kind of been depending on having a variety of skills, like Nature and Survival because he worships Erastil and so would want to be able to hunt, and Society and Religion because he's faithful and true son of the River Kingdoms. The other skills like Medicine, Diplomacy and Athletics on the other hand, are essential adventuring skills.


Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Which skills should I abandon as I no longer have Natural Skill? I'd kind of been depending on having a variety of skills, like Nature and Survival because he worships Erastil and so would want to be able to hunt, and Society and Religion because he's faithful and true son of the River Kingdoms. The other skills like Medicine, Diplomacy and Athletics on the other hand, are essential adventuring skills.

Can't you cheat part of it by taking the Dwarven lore?

Quote:
You eagerly absorbed the old stories and traditions of your ancestors, your gods, and your people, studying in subjects and techniques passed down for generation upon generation. You gain the trained proficiency rank in Crafting and Religion. If you would automatically become trained in one of those skills (from your background or class, for example), you instead become trained in a skill of your choice. You also become trained in Dwarven Lore.

You'll get Crafting and Religion ( you already have religion, so it would be turn into something else ).

As for crafting... I'll give up to Diplomacy, since now you are a dwarf ( -2 charisma, and maybe you should play the "dwarven attitude" of being grumpy, if this is a thing on 2e too ).

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Huh...I thought that feat only gave you trained in Dwarven Lore...this feat will probably be my replacement, then. Though it'll probably take some explaining as to how Wymond just instinctively KNOWS new things about crafting and dwarfiness upon reincarnating...


Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Huh...I thought that feat only gave you trained in Dwarven Lore...this feat will probably be my replacement, then. Though it'll probably take some explaining as to how Wymond just instinctively KNOWS new things about crafting and dwarfiness upon reincarnating...

I share your doubts, and I also wouldn't use the dwarven lore skill for a while ( though I'd probably try to learn something about being a dwarf during downtime, just for rp purposes ).

As for crafting, It might be some extra manuality you suddenly happen to have.

I mean, while on the one hand the once elf became grumpy and less talkative, on the other hand he noticed that he's now way more proficient with manual works.

ps: any ancestry but humans has its own "XXXXX lore" which gives 2 skills and the XXXXX lore. If the character already has a lot of skills, they could eventually result in "any skill".


Paizo have screwed up Reincarnate
I mean it is totally clear that some of your attributes and feats were based on the biology of your previous body. But some of your ancestry feats and heritages like Ancient Elf or Anvil Dwarf are clearly a product of your lived life experience.

They have gone the step of relabelling these categories to heritage and ancestry, but they haven't cleanly spearated biological and social/experience feats. I mean you are a Human in the body of a Dwarf.

There are some other attributes that could have changed at this point but the rules are totally silent.

So you are stuck and a clean rebuild is probably the only way forward. But you should be taking Adopted Ancestry to pick up some thing from your old life.


Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

As the GM in question, I resolved it by saying that he could rebuild his ancestry feats (and those that depended upon them, such as those derived from Natural Ambition in any way he chooses. If AP Zousha wants his character to have Dwarven Lore, he's welcome to it. The Reincarnate ritual will infuse that knowledge into his brain.

Honestly, GM's who hew too closely to the rules are either inexperienced or looking for trouble. I just want my players to have fun!


Yes its much better if your GM is reasonable and flexible. But real people have a wide range of personalities and to some this seems like cheating or not following the rules. These types of person are more attracted to games like PF2 which has more rules.

Not everyone has this sort of mental flexibility or sees it as a good thing.

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