So, the title here is mostly a joke based on another thread titled, "Is it just me, or is Iron Command *really* strong?"
That said, I had a bit of the opposite reaction when I read Iron Command, and I wanted to ask people's opinion on its use, especially people who have had experience using it or have seen others in their games use it. I'm going to sound negative here, but I really am looking for people's experience with this ability or opinions why it's not as bad as I think or why I'm not looking at this the right way.
My first concern when reading this Champion's Reaction is that it gives the enemy a choice. That essentially is like saying, "Your reaction does A or B, whichever is worse [for you]." In that case, you would want for the two options to be close in the impact of their consequence because, if one option is clearly more impactful than the other, it will never be chosen.
This leads to a second problem: I don't see being knocked prone as equally consequential to taking the damage from this reaction (assuming both options are viable for a given enemy). I imagine a scenario where the reaction is used, an enemy drops prone, uses its second action to stand up and its third to attack, only losing its "least valuable action", the third attack. Same if it casts a spell, more or less.
The more you improve one side of your reaction with things like Iron Repercussions, the greater the disparity between the two becomes, and going prone becomes the obvious choice. The only way I could think to take advantage of knocking an enemy prone would be to grab Attack of Opportunity, Divine Reflexes, and follow up your Champion's Reaction with and AoO when the enemy tries to stand. You would have to be level 14 to pull that off though, and it feels more like trying to fix something that's broken than improve on a good thing.
I don't know how many people have gotten to see Iron Command in action, but I was really curious how it works in play. I'd be excited to hear anybody's thoughts on this, or why you think that things I see as problems might not be problems. Or why they are, if that was your experience, but mostly I hope I'm wrong or missing some things. :)
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Prone is a lot better against bosses - trading your reaction for their 1 action (to stand) is quite strong. Automatic damage against bosses is also quite strong because it's hard to hit them in the first place. Iron Command is a lot weaker against lots of enemies though, where their actions are worth less so trading your reaction for 1 action is not a great trade.
Also might be a bit ruling dependent on if you can choose prone while already prone...
Prone is a lot better against bosses...Also might be a bit ruling dependent on if you can choose prone while already prone...
Ooh! Good one! I would think yes, personally. Interesting point! Perspective on bosses vs weaker enemies is also good. Thank you so much. :)
Can also gain or lose value depending on the opponent's attack routine. There are a decent number of monsters with two action attack routines. For someone like that, getting knocked prone means that standing back up ends their turn or they might not be able to stand up at all if they moved up before attacking.
I do agree that it's a bit of a shame that none of the upgrades improve the other side, which make it increasingly lopsided. It almost feels like there was some design intent for GMs to roleplay the results and have some characters refuse out of principle/arrogance/whatever.
... The Exalt version is kind of the opposite, with the damage scaling so poorly almost nobody would take the Prone without some very specific exentuating circumstances.
On the topic of whether dropping prone provokes, I'm not sure.
I think it depends on whether or not it counts as forced movement, as forced movement does not (typically) provoke reactions. If it does provoke reaction in this instance, then it could definitely see very situational value. If your have an ally or two in position around the enemy to AoO them it could be very good.
Of course, the character should know if their movement would provoke and if it did and there were 1+ characters in position to AoO they would just take the original damage instead.
It's also not going to be so common to have 1+ allies in position to make an AoO and even further for those characters to also have AoO reaction.
Well, all the stuff that is meant not to provoke any AoO is labeled with "This is forced movement", and the Iron Command description lacks this part.
So RAW, it provokes AoO.
As for not having at l least 1 ally in range, i think it may be definitely possible.
But given how the reaction works, I assume it would be tactical for the combatants ( or at least one of the ) to stay close to the Tyrant when possible.
Ideally yes, but I'm thinking about a typical 4 man party and how often they are in range of each other.
Tactically I think PF2 encourages you to work together against a single enemy, but I think many people are used to spreading out and each trying to fight their own enemy based on PF1 experience. Which is typically much less effective in PF2.
When Iron Command is completely negated by a 7th level Skill Feat (or other abilities like it), it's kind of sad compared to Glimpse of Redemption, Retributive Strike, etc. Which is relevant across all levels of play and isn't negated except by personal or enemy tactics.
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When Iron Command is completely negated by a 7th level Skill Feat (or other abilities like it), it's kind of sad compared to Glimpse of Redemption, Retributive Strike, etc. Which is relevant across all levels of play and isn't negated except by personal or enemy tactics.
If you have the party setup (or the personal setup) to turn that dropping prone into free opportunity attacks, that becomes less of a problem.
If your GM agrees that one cannot take a knee while, say, already prone and grappled, then there's an interestingly painful lockdown build available there. Now admittedly, that means that you're basically ordering them to do something, physically preventing them from doing it, and then punishing them for their disobedience, but... well, honestly, that feels very Lawful Evil to me. *I'd* allow it.
Also, that bonus to damage for the next round doesn't care which choice the enemy makes - it's just a damage bonus. Better still, if you *do* run the opportunity attack exploit, that bit of bonus damage definitely applies.
When Iron Command is completely negated by a 7th level Skill Feat (or other abilities like it), it's kind of sad compared to Glimpse of Redemption, Retributive Strike, etc. Which is relevant across all levels of play and isn't negated except by personal or enemy tactics.If you have the party setup (or the personal setup) to turn that dropping prone into free opportunity attacks, that becomes less of a problem.
If your GM agrees that one cannot take a knee while, say, already prone and grappled, then there's an interestingly painful lockdown build available there. Now admittedly, that means that you're basically ordering them to do something, physically preventing them from doing it, and then punishing them for their disobedience, but... well, honestly, that feels very Lawful Evil to me. *I'd* allow it.
Also, that bonus to damage for the next round doesn't care which choice the enemy makes - it's just a damage bonus. Better still, if you *do* run the opportunity attack exploit, that bit of bonus damage definitely applies.
We had a Tyrant NPC we fought in a previous combat use their Iron Command on a party-member that had the Kip Up skill feat. He struck the NPC, got affected by the reaction, chose to go prone, and then as a free action, stood right back up and didn't trigger further reactions.
Yes, it requires Master in Acrobatics and a Skill Feat slot, but if you've come up against numerous trip-type enemies, or take Fall Damage on a regular basis, it's a very good skill feat investment.
To be fair, the ability might be more effective against monsters and other NPC enemies, but as far as it being an effective tool against other PCs, there are ways around it. Bonus points if you utilize a Reach weapon.
Well, it's not that an enemy ( not a beast or a mindless creature ) would insist on the Tyrant after have seen its reaction.
It would be like continue making long strides against a reach fighter with AoO
This is true, and it's an issue with basically all of the evil champions... but it *is* the sort of thing that trip/grapple optimization and AOO availability can help with.
- AOO: lvl 6 (hit them if they move)
- Impassable Wall Stance: lvl 8 (admittedly, this involves being a LE knight of Lastwall) (AOO cancels attempted move)
- Divine Reflexes: lvl 14 (extra reaction per turn, usable only on Champion's Reaction)
amusingly, it looks like it's also technically possible to get Shield of Grace as an evil champion - you just have to take Shield Warden through the fighter archetype (as your lvl 12 class feat). So, with *that* build, once you're high enough level to pull the combo off, you shield block for an ally, you split the damage... and then you've been damaged by the enemy, and can thus trigger your champion's reaction. Sure, it eats your 12th, 8th (or 14th, or both), and 16th level feats to pull it off (you're going to need Quick Block and/pr Divine Reflexes), but punishing someone for having the temerity to hit you when you *jumped in the way of the blow* is kind of hilariously lawful evil, no? Even better if the ally you're shield blocking for has them prone and grappled, so you can pull the "punishing you for things that aren't your fault" trick *twice*.
If your GM finds Lawful Evil loophole-abuse shenanigans *really* amusing, you might even be able to sell them on the idea of getting Shield of Reckoning (lvl 10 feat) to work with this particular combo. I don't even think it would be unbalanced. It would just be *wrong*. You probably want to pick a thematically appropriate deity if you're going to try to push it *that* far, though.
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When Iron Command is completely negated by a 7th level Skill Feat (or other abilities like it), it's kind of sad compared to Glimpse of Redemption, Retributive Strike, etc. Which is relevant across all levels of play and isn't negated except by personal or enemy tactics.
NPCs don't have Kip Up or similar abilities, and neither to most PCs. Kip Up also negates things like Knockdown, but Knockdown is still deadly if combined with AOOs.
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When Iron Command is completely negated by a 7th level Skill Feat (or other abilities like it), it's kind of sad compared to Glimpse of Redemption, Retributive Strike, etc. Which is relevant across all levels of play and isn't negated except by personal or enemy tactics.NPCs don't have Kip Up or similar abilities, and neither to most PCs. Kip Up also negates things like Knockdown, but Knockdown is still deadly if combined with AOOs.
Darksol does this really silly thing where they assume the existence of a theoretical counter available to PCs has any relevance to PCs that only fight NPCs. They did the same thing with insisting Foil Senses made scent a useless ability.
I don't think there is a single NPC or monster in the PF2 books that has kip-up.
Let's take a level 1 moderate encounter as an example - 2 cave scorpions.
They have 20 HP, so can probably afford to deal with taking 3 damage (the average damage of iron command) - they will probably choose that over going prone, as going prone either means their next stinger attack is less likely to hit, or they have to skip that attack in favour of standing up to avoid flat-footed. The stinger attack if it hits does a pretty non-trivial amount of damage, doing an average of 5 damage followed by poison which has a lot of damage potential that could kill a 1st level character.
The decision however, is then modified by things like how much health the scorpion has left (when down to 10 HP, the possibility of rolling a 6 for the damage is too risky) and which action on the scorpions turn triggered the reaction - if you have already all of your actions, it weighs things in favour of the damage as you can't stand up in time to avoid being flat-footed for all of your enemies attacks. If you have used two actions (both of them to attack) the MAP makes attacking a third time pretty pointless, so you may as well go prone and use the third action to stand. If there is a fighter standing next to you, that changes things again as they get attacks of opportunity if you stand.
Also, losing an action in this encounter means losing 16% of the monster teams actions, compared to 6% for a group of 5 monsters, so the amount of monsters matters too, especially as the actions of a pair of strong monsters like the cave scorpion do a lot more than the actions of weaker monsters you would fight 5 of.
This shows how very not-clear cut the choice is, and how what the monster is and the situation matters a lot.
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Out of interest, I did a quick search on Archives of Nethys for creatures with both "prone" and "stand" in their text. Looking through the small list, only the Vanara Disciple seemed to have an ability that would let them stand from prone without AoO, and that's a 2-action ability that makes them stride twice as well. It's a pretty safe bet that your knocking an enemy prone won't be made useless by them having a kip-up style ability.
Darksol does this really silly thing where they assume the existence of a theoretical counter available to PCs has any relevance to PCs that only fight NPCs. They did the same thing with insisting Foil Senses made scent a useless ability.When Iron Command is completely negated by a 7th level Skill Feat (or other abilities like it), it's kind of sad compared to Glimpse of Redemption, Retributive Strike, etc. Which is relevant across all levels of play and isn't negated except by personal or enemy tactics.NPCs don't have Kip Up or similar abilities, and neither to most PCs. Kip Up also negates things like Knockdown, but Knockdown is still deadly if combined with AOOs.
Kip Up negates AoOs as well, which means you couldn't even Plan B it if you wanted. Literally, unless you followed up with another attack at a penalty (which isn't the worst, but also not a guarantee), it's not doing anything other than demonstrating how useless the reaction is. You would have been better off literally wielding a Reach weapon and triggering AoOs from their movement instead.
But really, all you're telling me is "GMs can't use PC abilities because it's cheating" in a system where the GM can take the math required for their HP, AC, Skills, etc. and throw it out the window. There's nothing that says GMs can't tack PC abilities or options onto NPCs, acting like they can't, or won't, is just poor player expectations.
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Darksol does this really silly thing where they assume the existence of a theoretical counter available to PCs has any relevance to PCs that only fight NPCs. They did the same thing with insisting Foil Senses made scent a useless ability.When Iron Command is completely negated by a 7th level Skill Feat (or other abilities like it), it's kind of sad compared to Glimpse of Redemption, Retributive Strike, etc. Which is relevant across all levels of play and isn't negated except by personal or enemy tactics.NPCs don't have Kip Up or similar abilities, and neither to most PCs. Kip Up also negates things like Knockdown, but Knockdown is still deadly if combined with AOOs.Kip Up negates AoOs as well, which means you couldn't even Plan B it if you wanted. Literally, unless you followed up with another attack at a penalty (which isn't the worst, but also not a guarantee), it's not doing anything other than demonstrating how useless the reaction is. You would have been better off literally wielding a Reach weapon and triggering AoOs from their movement instead.
But really, all you're telling me is "GMs can't use PC abilities because it's cheating" in a system where the GM can take the math required for their HP, AC, Skills, etc. and throw it out the window. There's nothing that says GMs can't tack PC abilities or options onto NPCs, acting like they can't, or won't, is just poor player expectations.
Sure, it is possible that a GM could give an NPC kip-up. But the fact that no existing monsters have it, and the very low probability of a GM giving an NPC a pretty obscure ability that doesn't do much for a monsters theme makes the "this ability is useless because kip-up exists" argument pretty stupid.
The odds that you will face a monster with kip-up is extremely low. Most GMs don't bother making custom monsters. Most GMs don't actually make custom anything (most games are run out of adventure path books). Most GMs making custom monsters don't look through the skill feat list for abilities. (I do sometimes, but I make an abnormally large amount of custom monsters and look a lot further afield for abilities than is the default).
Even if you do end up facing one or two monsters with kip-up, all of the other monsters you face don't have it, so the ability is still useful.
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Darksol does this really silly thing where they assume the existence of a theoretical counter available to PCs has any relevance to PCs that only fight NPCs. They did the same thing with insisting Foil Senses made scent a useless ability.When Iron Command is completely negated by a 7th level Skill Feat (or other abilities like it), it's kind of sad compared to Glimpse of Redemption, Retributive Strike, etc. Which is relevant across all levels of play and isn't negated except by personal or enemy tactics.NPCs don't have Kip Up or similar abilities, and neither to most PCs. Kip Up also negates things like Knockdown, but Knockdown is still deadly if combined with AOOs.Kip Up negates AoOs as well, which means you couldn't even Plan B it if you wanted. Literally, unless you followed up with another attack at a penalty (which isn't the worst, but also not a guarantee), it's not doing anything other than demonstrating how useless the reaction is. You would have been better off literally wielding a Reach weapon and triggering AoOs from their movement instead.
But really, all you're telling me is "GMs can't use PC abilities because it's cheating" in a system where the GM can take the math required for their HP, AC, Skills, etc. and throw it out the window. There's nothing that says GMs can't tack PC abilities or options onto NPCs, acting like they can't, or won't, is just poor player expectations.
Surely the fact that it's the only Champion reaction with any traits (beyond Champion), and so creatures immune to mental effects are immune to it, is far more relevant than the chance that one custom enemy your GM may make could have the Kip Up feat, or something close to it?
Darksol does this really silly thing where they assume the existence of a theoretical counter available to PCs has any relevance to PCs that only fight NPCs. They did the same thing with insisting Foil Senses made scent a useless ability.When Iron Command is completely negated by a 7th level Skill Feat (or other abilities like it), it's kind of sad compared to Glimpse of Redemption, Retributive Strike, etc. Which is relevant across all levels of play and isn't negated except by personal or enemy tactics.NPCs don't have Kip Up or similar abilities, and neither to most PCs. Kip Up also negates things like Knockdown, but Knockdown is still deadly if combined with AOOs.Kip Up negates AoOs as well, which means you couldn't even Plan B it if you wanted. Literally, unless you followed up with another attack at a penalty (which isn't the worst, but also not a guarantee), it's not doing anything other than demonstrating how useless the reaction is. You would have been better off literally wielding a Reach weapon and triggering AoOs from their movement instead.
But really, all you're telling me is "GMs can't use PC abilities because it's cheating" in a system where the GM can take the math required for their HP, AC, Skills, etc. and throw it out the window. There's nothing that says GMs can't tack PC abilities or options onto NPCs, acting like they can't, or won't, is just poor player expectations.
Sure, it is possible that a GM could give an NPC kip-up. But the fact that no existing monsters have it, and the very low probability of a GM giving an NPC a pretty obscure ability that doesn't do much for a monsters theme makes the "this ability is useless because kip-up exists" argument pretty stupid.
The odds that you will face a monster with kip-up is extremely low. Most GMs don't bother making...
Looks to me like a great way to make an encounter unique and providing a challenge that isn't "Knock them down and beat them dead," especially if a party is prone-happy. Certainly better than just giving the enemies more HP, AC, Saves, etc. Or throwing in random mooks to clog the encounter pacing. But you know, it's bad form to give enemies tools similar to PCs, even if they are, for example, trained Red Mantis Assassins, which has come up in actual play before.
The same can be said for enemies with offensive reactions of any sort. But that doesn't mean the PCs shouldn't prepare for it in the off-chance that it's there. Just as well, about every other encounter, enemies we face have AoOs of some kind, so there goes that theory. Even if we want to argue that the GM is just throwing abilities onto monsters to make the fights harder, as a player who isn't studying or reading stat-blocks to correct the GM, I wouldn't (or rather, I shouldn't) know the difference.
Surely the fact that it's the only Champion reaction with any traits (beyond Champion), and so creatures immune to mental effects are immune to it, is far more relevant than the chance that one custom enemy your GM may make could have the Kip Up feat, or something close to it?Darksol does this really silly thing where they assume the existence of a theoretical counter available to PCs has any relevance to PCs that only fight NPCs. They did the same thing with insisting Foil Senses made scent a useless ability.When Iron Command is completely negated by a 7th level Skill Feat (or other abilities like it), it's kind of sad compared to Glimpse of Redemption, Retributive Strike, etc. Which is relevant across all levels of play and isn't negated except by personal or enemy tactics.NPCs don't have Kip Up or similar abilities, and neither to most PCs. Kip Up also negates things like Knockdown, but Knockdown is still deadly if combined with AOOs.Kip Up negates AoOs as well, which means you couldn't even Plan B it if you wanted. Literally, unless you followed up with another attack at a penalty (which isn't the worst, but also not a guarantee), it's not doing anything other than demonstrating how useless the reaction is. You would have been better off literally wielding a Reach weapon and triggering AoOs from their movement instead.
But really, all you're telling me is "GMs can't use PC abilities because it's cheating" in a system where the GM can take the math required for their HP, AC, Skills, etc. and throw it out the window. There's nothing that says GMs can't tack PC abilities or options onto NPCs, acting like they can't, or won't, is just poor player expectations.
It is, but there is also the Antipaladin cause, which deals Negative or Evil damage with their main reaction. Against Constructs and Undead, it's a useless reaction, since both are immune to Negative and Evil damage. Even compared to Liberating Step (the weakest of the Good Champion reactions), it falls short and has no universal applications that aren't negated solely by tactics.
Regardless, we have had Iron Command be used against players in actual gameplay, and its effects have been negated by a 7th level skill feat twice in a row. If we were Evil characters going up against any Good NPC with Champion reactions, we would not be so fortunate, and face a much harder battle.
Tyrant has the benefit of having the coolest of all champion reactions. Fluffy as heck and lawful evil is the easiest evil alignment to bring to the table. Tyrant of Asmodeus with a hellknight archetype for order of the chain would be a really fun cc build.
Well, it's not that an enemy ( not a beast or a mindless creature ) would insist on the Tyrant after have seen its reaction.
It would be like continue making long strides against a reach fighter with AoO
Which is why a tyrant should also be a reach champion with AoO. The goal is to make most options into terrible options. Attack him? Kneel or take tons of damage. Go around him? Halberd in the face (which is about the same damage as iron command, funnily enough).
So enemies either hit and waste an action getting back up, or they waste actions going the long way around.
At some point, it is a better deal for a GM to just have the enemy soak up the damage and continue doing something useful instead. Enemies are inherently disposable, after all. Heck, many enemies view their minions as disposable in character too.
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I'm confused. Is Darksol's argument "Iron Command is bad because the GM's infinite power allows the GM to craft a specific Iron Command counter"?
Sure is.
Well, it's not that an enemy ( not a beast or a mindless creature ) would insist on the Tyrant after have seen its reaction.
It would be like continue making long strides against a reach fighter with AoO
Which is why a tyrant should also be a reach champion with AoO. The goal is to make most options into terrible options. Attack him? Kneel or take tons of damage. Go around him? Halberd in the face (which is about the same damage as iron command, funnily enough).
So enemies either hit and waste an action getting back up, or they waste actions going the long way around.
At some point, it is a better deal for a GM to just have the enemy soak up the damage and continue doing something useful instead. Enemies are inherently disposable, after all. Heck, many enemies view their minions as disposable in character too.
I think disagree.
What you suggests kicks in just starting from lvl 14, and I wouldn't sacrifice my champion reaction ( even if the evil causes are quite a mess compared to the good ones ) because of an AoO.
For what concerns the DM, I think that mostly depends on the enemies he's moving. I tend to analyze encounters, in order to offer my players the best fight ( this also includes scouting during short rests, and sometimes even ambushes ).
What is for sure is that you won't ever meet a character with kip up, so your tyrant reaction will be always useful depends the outcome.
As I said, the damage is comparable. 6d6=~21, and 4d10=~22. There are various bonuses back and forth, but the only notable difference is the persistent damage from iron repercussions.
And if you are focusing down an enemy, and the GM attempts to do a run around instead of attacking you, it seems unlikely you are going to get that juicy persistent damage in this turn. You will likely have to wait until you reposition next turn, so you might as well take a swipe now with your big stick.
It is the classic crane wing problem- if you make hitting you unattractive, then many GMs will avoid attacking you. So you need to have something else going on instead. Reach builds are a good solution to that, since it lets you deal with enemies that would rather avoid you.
The only time you would have to save your reaction is when the GM places multiple enemies around you, and they are trying to cause doubt about whether or not they will hit you for your big damage. But at the same time, from a party perspective, getting "tricked" is a great deal. If enemies bait you your reaction and then target your champion... that means that the enemies are attacking the sturdiest member of the party, rather than squishy wizards.
I'm confused. Is Darksol's argument "Iron Command is bad because the GM's infinite power allows the GM to craft a specific Iron Command counter"?
Actually, I stated that the GM can use PC options for NPCs against the PCs as a means of providing a challenging encounter. But go ahead and keep using a strawman to justify your ridicule instead of actually engaging in what has been said like other more constructive posters have.
I'm confused. Is Darksol's argument "Iron Command is bad because the GM's infinite power allows the GM to craft a specific Iron Command counter"?Actually, I stated that the GM can use PC options for NPCs against the PCs as a means of providing a challenging encounter. But go ahead and keep using a strawman to justify your ridicule instead of actually engaging in what has been said like other more constructive posters have.
I think the issue involves design concerns that we saw from dnd 3.5 and PF1e. In fact, I was taken aback myself when I first learned of this change in 2e.
One of the staples of previous systems was that players and enemies largely played on the same field in terms of design. Enemies with class levels typically saw the same abilities from those levels as the players.
So, when I wondered "am I understanding this mechanic right?", I could look at enemies and NPCs stat blocks to see how they were put together. That was actually how I learned the labyrinth of natural attack rules for my animal companions, for example.
The advantage of this design principle was that you could expect what enemies were capable of, since it was often what you could do as well. Now, I have to wonder "did they bother to give lvl 10 human enemy a second feat?". Of course, the enemies often have far less options than the players now, but I feel like I'm more likely to get caught underestimating them.
The move away from that system, however, was likely due to ease of design. That lvl 10 human enemy would previously have a half dozen normal feats, maybe 5 class options, and then you have to think about spell lists. that is probably harder to play for a GM as well, since they have to remember the feat options of a half dozen disposable creatures in a fight.
I mean yea...... a dm is god. Iron command can be useless in the same way that I can make the rogue and investigator classes useless in combat by only using monsters immune to precision damage. If your argument is based on the assumption of adversarial players and dms the dm is going to win 100 times out of 100. On its own when taken into the entirety of published monsters, iron command is fairly useful unless your fighting things immune to mental stuff. And again...... this is just like a precision ranger, rogue, or investigator rolling up on precision immune enemies. Under normal circumstances, the circumstances you'll be playing in a vast majority of the time, you're going to be fine. I just wouldn't play tyrant in an undead heavy campaign.
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I mean yea...... a dm is god. Iron command can be useless in the same way that I can make the rogue and investigator classes useless in combat by only using monsters immune to precision damage. If your argument is based on the assumption of adversarial players and dms the dm is going to win 100 times out of 100. On its own when taken into the entirety of published monsters, iron command is fairly useful unless your fighting things immune to mental stuff. And again...... this is just like a precision ranger, rogue, or investigator rolling up on precision immune enemies. Under normal circumstances, the circumstances you'll be playing in a vast majority of the time, you're going to be fine. I just wouldn't play tyrant in an undead heavy campaign.
The Kip Up example actually isn't exactly like precision damage because there are actually published enemies immune to precision damage. No published enemies have Kip Up.
Mental immune enemies are exactly the same as precision immune enemies, but that isn't the drawback Darksol glommed on. Instead they focused on something that only exists if the GM intentionally tries to invalidate PC options.
I mean yea...... a dm is god. Iron command can be useless in the same way that I can make the rogue and investigator classes useless in combat by only using monsters immune to precision damage. If your argument is based on the assumption of adversarial players and dms the dm is going to win 100 times out of 100. On its own when taken into the entirety of published monsters, iron command is fairly useful unless your fighting things immune to mental stuff. And again...... this is just like a precision ranger, rogue, or investigator rolling up on precision immune enemies. Under normal circumstances, the circumstances you'll be playing in a vast majority of the time, you're going to be fine. I just wouldn't play tyrant in an undead heavy campaign.The Kip Up example actually isn't exactly like precision damage because there are actually published enemies immune to precision damage. No published enemies have Kip Up.
Mental immune enemies are exactly the same as precision immune enemies, but that isn't the drawback Darksol glommed on. Instead they focused on something that only exists if the GM intentionally tries to invalidate PC options.
Yea I wouldn't play with that kind of dm. It's a game not an arms race.
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Not to put too fine a point on it, but while I certainly think its fine for some creatures to have kip up, it'd be a little weird for it to be often enough that it meaningfully dented the power valuation of the ability. I feel like it would come up at most a couple times throughout a whole campaign, unless you're fighting a really specific organization who are all deliberately designed as acrobats.
I will also note that all champions have a bit of a 'crane wing' problem. They have the best AC in the game, and even good ones are unattractive targets because they have great self healing.
Good champions simply have reactions that more directly address the issue of enemies targeting your allies instead.
But at the end of the day, a guy running around, swinging around a halberd as they wish and taking swipes at you when you try to get around him... that is still a problem that has to be addressed. Tyrants aren't in the same position as pf1e crane monks because they often went for turtled up dex/wis stats that had no room for str and actual damage.
the advantage of being a murderous porcupine means that other people aren't really as interested in stopping you from whacking away at the enemy mages and archers.
unless you're fighting a really specific organization who are all deliberately designed as acrobats.Beware the Foot Clan
worthy of a repost. take my upvote